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Night10194 posted:Considering Scion 1e, I don't think this is going to happen, sadly. I agree that El-Shaddai/YHVH/El could be a really cool twist for the crazy godchild setting and I can see a ton of ways to do it, but they couldn't be bothered to do very much research as it was. A while back Rose actually put up an apology on behalf of WW/OP for how poorly researched (and racist) Scion 1E was, so there is hope. Dammit Who? posted:What response is there, other than to ignore what the game is telling you or to decline to play it? This is a good interpretation, considering Beast also prefer Gentry over Lost, tying into some of the ways orgs like the HRC sweep abuse in queer relationships under the rug. I have to wonder how Prometheans factor in, though. They're probably the most othered line, mapping fairly easily to things like homelessness and gender dysphoria, but Beasts would prefer they stay homeless/transitioning/whatever rather than become "palatable." Regardless, I think its interesting that the only line that Beasts expressly dislike is the one where you play faceless revolutionaries fighting the ultimate authority, who Beasts view as newcomers who have no place in their world. Luminous Obscurity fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Jun 5, 2015 |
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Jun 5, 2015 17:23
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Luminous Obscurity posted:A while back Rose actually put up an apology on behalf of WW/OP for how poorly researched (and racist) Scion 1E was, so there is hope. That is legitimately good to hear.
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Jun 5, 2015 17:27
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Nihnoz posted:I'm glad they finally, Finally made a splatbook about playing MC P Pants. I've been waiting for this for years now. Bless you Onyx Path. Okay, but when are we getting Carl? Frylock is obviously a Mage.
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Jun 5, 2015 17:35
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Carl's either a mortal or a Sleepwalker.
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Jun 5, 2015 17:36
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Kavak posted:Carl's either a mortal or a Sleepwalker.
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Jun 5, 2015 18:22
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Luminous Obscurity posted:A while back Rose actually put up an apology on behalf of WW/OP for how poorly researched (and racist) Scion 1E was, so there is hope Do you have a link to this? Luminous Obscurity posted:Regardless, I think its interesting that the only line that Beasts expressly dislike is the one where you play faceless revolutionaries fighting the ultimate authority, who Beasts view as newcomers who have no place in their world. I really don't get why Demons get excluded from a mechanics standpoint other than them wanting to make sure people play Demon as it's own game for a few years, and beasts are meant to revitalize the other gamelines with crossover potential.
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Jun 5, 2015 19:00
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Kurieg posted:Do you have a link to this? Rose Bailey posted:So, here's something I think needs to be said, and it's not the easiest thing to say.
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Jun 5, 2015 19:19
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I'm still confused by how the author of Beast expect me to hate the Heroes. The way I'm interpreting it, Heroes were just normal people who had a repressed dark side to them, and then after being tormented by the Beast, something snaps inside them and they become obsessive lunatics. That's not exactly grounds for me to unconditionally froth at the mouth and boo whenever I see a Hero. They're just poor saps who got their minds broken by a horrible nightmare monster and now the only thing they can do is try and retaliate against the Beasts. I pity them more than I do the Beasts, who seem to really enjoy what they've become.
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Jun 5, 2015 22:05
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SunAndSpring posted:I'm still confused by how the author of Beast expect me to hate the Heroes. The way I'm interpreting it, Heroes were just normal people who had a repressed dark side to them, and then after being tormented by the Beast, something snaps inside them and they become obsessive lunatics. That's not exactly grounds for me to unconditionally froth at the mouth and boo whenever I see a Hero. They're just poor saps who got their minds broken by a horrible nightmare monster and now the only thing they can do is try and retaliate against the Beasts. I pity them more than I do the Beasts, who seem to really enjoy what they've become. Because the were at integrity 4 before their unfortunate encounter with the beast. That means that they were already horribly deranged and probably murderers. So you know, they're bad, hate them. Ignore the fact that this rule was introduced after the earlier rules leak, because people were sympathizing with the heroes.
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Jun 5, 2015 22:34
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Kurieg posted:Because the were at integrity 4 before their unfortunate encounter with the beast. That means that they were already horribly deranged and probably murderers. So you know, they're bad, hate them. Can't you get low integrity like that just from witnessing acts of shocking violence or interacting with overtly supernatural stuff?
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Jun 5, 2015 22:41
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Yes, one of the biggest changes 2E made to mortals was to make Integrity a general measure of how much psychologically-destabilizing trauma a character has faced rather than a general measure of that character's capacity to unflinchingly hurt other people.
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Jun 5, 2015 22:49
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Ferrinus posted:Yes, one of the biggest changes 2E made to mortals was to make Integrity a general measure of how much psychologically-destabilizing trauma a character has faced rather than a general measure of that character's capacity to unflinchingly hurt other people. I more meant isn't it entirely possible to hit Integrity 4 from exposure to beasts anyway, given their whole traumatising people with sheer monstrousness thing?
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Jun 5, 2015 22:56
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spectralent posted:I more meant isn't it entirely possible to hit Integrity 4 from exposure to beasts anyway, given their whole traumatising people with sheer monstrousness thing? Yeah, but the book also said that that sort of person is more likely to turn into a Hunter than a Hero, because he actually has a sympathetic reason for being who he is. quote:As noted in Chapter Four, it’s possible to lose Integrity from exposure to the supernatural, but The point isn't that you could create a sympathetic hero. The point is that storytellers are specifically instructed not to. Only create monstrous Heroes that your players can hate. Kurieg fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Jun 5, 2015 |
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Jun 5, 2015 22:59
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Kurieg posted:Yeah, but the book also said that that sort of person is more likely to turn into a Hunter than a Hero, because he actually has a sympathetic reason for being who he is. I feel like they're trying too hard not to step on Hunter's toes. I mean, they're already different enough from (most) Hunters as is. They have inherent magical powers that only deal with hunting Beasts, and they don't care about anything else enough to go out of their way to hunt it. If a vampire is protecting a Beast, they'll kill it and pat themselves on the back for killing the monster's foul minion, but they're not gonna go Van Helsing on the local neighborhood Gangrel because their main enemy is Grendel, not Dracula. But the writers seem to be super afraid of this, so they go out of their way to say, "No, Heroes are bad. They are all psycho killers and Beasts have never done anything wrong."
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Jun 5, 2015 23:43
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Yawgmoth posted:Union Hunter. Ironically the Aqua Teen's landlord is a vampire.
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Jun 6, 2015 00:30
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Kurieg posted:Yeah, but the book also said that that sort of person is more likely to turn into a Hunter than a Hero, because he actually has a sympathetic reason for being who he is. Oh, yeah, I get the book says not to, I was just questioning whether there was a logical reason other than "the book says".
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Jun 6, 2015 00:44
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spectralent posted:Oh, yeah, I get the book says not to, I was just questioning whether there was a logical reason other than "the book says". Because the book is full of informed attributes that run counter to what you'd think would happen. After the homecoming the soul and the beast are one, it's desires are their desires. Not once in the book is there evidence of a beast railing against their soul. The three endgames of Beast are "merge with your soul in the physical world", "Say gently caress the physical world and ride your soul like Falcor off into the collective Unconscious", and "Become a fear god" nowhere in there is "Sever your connection to your soul and become human again". And there's no real reason for a beast to want to, not feeding just means you get hungry and your soul goes out to gently caress with people on your behalf. loving with people consciously still causes spiritual damage to them. Actually managing to sever your connection to your soul (which is hard, but possible, though it means you're dead) just means it finds a new meat puppet to use and carry out it's desires. So why does the book keep saying that Beasts are the good guys? Beasts should be unrepentant, inhuman monsters. They are the villain of the story, they are also the player characters. Make the Heroes be actually heroic, have them made of sterner stuff, have them rise up to fight against the tyrants that predate upon the modern nights. And then have the beasts kill them. You are spreading fear, You are sowing terror, you are doing this because it feels good. Your end goal isn't to make the world a better place, it's to achieve spiritual apotheosis and become more than the sum of your parts. To tell Campbell to take the Heroes Journey and shove it up his rear end. This isn't a tale with a happy ending. You aren't some monster to be slain. You are a Myth. And this is your story. Unfortunately that's not what the book wants.
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Jun 6, 2015 01:16
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Kurieg posted:Beasts should be unrepentant, inhuman monsters. They are the villain of the story, they are also the player characters. Make the Heroes be actually heroic, have them made of sterner stuff, have them rise up to fight against the tyrants that predate upon the modern nights. And then have the beasts kill them. You are spreading fear, You are sowing terror, you are doing this because it feels good. Your end goal isn't to make the world a better place, it's to achieve spiritual apotheosis and become more than the sum of your parts. To tell Campbell to take the Heroes Journey and shove it up his rear end. This isn't a tale with a happy ending. You aren't some monster to be slain. You are a Myth. And this is your story.
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Jun 6, 2015 05:01
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Hell, do we even need 'heroes'? If we're going to crossover all and sundry with Beast, why not go for Slashers, albeit ones that target Beasts specifically? Yawgmoth posted:How is it that literally every goon idea for Beast has been better by miles than what we're actually getting? Like seriously I would have actually funded any of these ideas over what we got. 
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Jun 6, 2015 05:59
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I dunno, in a game about playing monsters such as Grendel and Medusa, it seems thematically appropriate to have Heroes. Crossover friendly is all well and good, but you've still got to give the Beasts something original, I feel. paradoxGentleman fucked around with this message at 09:28 on Jun 6, 2015 |
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Jun 6, 2015 09:24
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I really feel a solution might be to give beasts an incentive to create and cultivate heroes in order to increase their mythical nature. You could set it up that the reward is commensurate with the scale of the Hero - an unathletic unpopular neckbeard hero is only a light snack, while a virtuous, driven, skilled leader of men will give you huge amounts of myth xp if killed. Obviously you'd also have to make it clear that the beast is highly complicit in the hero's condition, and treat heroes with some sympathy. (That or just go the route that they're what happens if you reject the homecoming or are a twisted version of it)
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Jun 6, 2015 09:49
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paradoxGentleman posted:I dunno, in a game about playing monsters such as Grendel and Medusa, it seems thematically appropriate to have Heroes. Point taken; I'm just going by the basis of the general sentiment that Beasts are monsters, yet supposed to be the good guys- if that's the case, we'd need worse guys. For those who've been keeping up with the game, have they detailed Hero creation yet? Because I'd love to play Gaston.
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Jun 6, 2015 12:50
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CommissarMega posted:Point taken; I'm just going by the basis of the general sentiment that Beasts are monsters, yet supposed to be the good guys- if that's the case, we'd need worse guys. The complete text of the book is on the kickstarter page.
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Jun 6, 2015 14:00
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CommissarMega posted:Point taken; I'm just going by the basis of the general sentiment that Beasts are monsters, yet supposed to be the good guys- if that's the case, we'd need worse guys. You don't necessarily need Heroes to be worse guys: as we have stated multiple times now, their point of view is pretty understandable considering the effect that Beasts have on the rest of the world. They just need to be something more than one dimensional jerks for the sake of being jerks.
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Jun 6, 2015 14:30
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CommissarMega posted:Point taken; I'm just going by the basis of the general sentiment that Beasts are monsters, yet supposed to be the good guys- if that's the case, we'd need worse guys. The rules for hero creation are in the book, it is however adamant that you should never ever play a hero. And you don't need "Worse guys", you either need to make your "Good guys" actually contribute to the world something that makes them worth keeping around, despite their terrible nature, or you need "Better Guys" so that your evil PCs have someone to properly thwart. The game touches on the first point, implying that keeping humans in touch with the primordial dream is important, but never explains why, or why they have to do it through inflicting fear and terror. The answer is because doing otherwise would step on changeling toes, but that's not the point of this discussion Kurieg fucked around with this message at 14:46 on Jun 6, 2015 |
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Jun 6, 2015 14:42
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paradoxGentleman posted:I dunno, in a game about playing monsters such as Grendel and Medusa, it seems thematically appropriate to have Heroes. It doesn't help that it's actually crap at crossover. All the cross-over sections in the book are terrible and Kinship is a horrible idea that will only make players of other games hate the Beasts. No one likes being told how to play his character.
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Jun 6, 2015 16:04
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paradoxGentleman posted:Crossover friendly is all well and good, but you've still got to give the Beasts something original, I feel. Speaking of which, this is a minor complaint compared to all the other problems with Beast, but I feel like every nWoD corebook since Forsaken first came out has had something interesting in it that, even if you were uninterested in the corebook's signature monster, could be extracted and easily inserted into another game as a cool setting-expanding element. Forsaken has the Hisil and its constituent spirits and hosts. Awakening has the Astral Realms and manifestations of the Abyss. Created has fiery archangels of inscrutable purpose. Lost has the Hedge and weird goblin markets. Vigil has slashers and the various ideas attached to each conspiracy. Sin-Eaters has the Underworld and the Kerberoi. Curse has the remains of the Nameless Empire and, I guess, amkhata. Descent has angels, cryptids and splintering timelines. Even Requiem had smoke-owls from the outer darkness in the core by the time its second edition rolled around. What does Primordial have? I don't really see anything that isn't a Beast or intimately tied to having Beasts around (Heroes). There's the Primordial Dream, except... that's just another Astral Realm. (A kinda-sorta new region of it, and one that adds a few metaphysical wrinkles, but not fundamentally different.) There's the Dark Mother, but not only is she so vaguely defined as to be vaporous, but there's not even a clear communication of how you would go about looking for her or what kind of manifestations you would find that aren't more Beasts. The Inheritances are just variations on being a Beast and lose their definition beyond "fear monster" if you drop the Beast background. For all of its crossover friendliness, Beast doesn't seem to bring much to the table for other games if you're not already fired up about the Beasts themselves.
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Jun 6, 2015 16:43
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Flavivirus posted:I really feel a solution might be to give beasts an incentive to create and cultivate heroes in order to increase their mythical nature. You could set it up that the reward is commensurate with the scale of the Hero - an unathletic unpopular neckbeard hero is only a light snack, while a virtuous, driven, skilled leader of men will give you huge amounts of myth xp if killed. Obviously you'd also have to make it clear that the beast is highly complicit in the hero's condition, and treat heroes with some sympathy.
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Jun 6, 2015 17:01
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I Am Just a Box posted:For all of its crossover friendliness, Beast doesn't seem to bring much to the table for other games if you're not already fired up about the Beasts themselves. Hunter's kinda similar in that emphasis (Slashers are too meta for my taste), but the Compacts and Conspiracies are so varied in goals, methods, and make-up that it's trivial to insert at least one into a campaign. You'd have to be running a Throng of Prometheans to avoid every social circle or institution that could hold a hunter. Beasts, not so much- they seem like one-off antagonist or flavor, like a Goblin Market in a Werewolf game. What does the text say about why a player would want to play a Beast in a non-Beast campaign, by the way?
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Jun 6, 2015 17:10
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Frankly I don't see why an Uratha pack would ally itself with a Beast. The game says that beasts are literally fountains of fear, terror, and suffering resonance. That isn't going to lead to a very healthy spiritual landscape by ANY definition.
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Jun 6, 2015 17:23
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Vampires, some Mages, and like one Refinement of Promethean seem like the only groups that would hang out with them.
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Jun 6, 2015 17:33
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Honestly I can't imagine why anybody would want to play a beast in a crossover game when all the other options are way better (Even Geist).
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Jun 6, 2015 17:40
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I assume because Beasts are extremely powerful mechanically and the game takes as a given that everyone else in the group has to at least start out liking you. Also Beasts don't have anything to actually do besides adventure and discover plot secrets in between the occasional Hero housecleaning, the specifics of which become even less important in a crossover game. Seems like a pretty sweet deal. edit: the Beast even comes with his own sick treehouse for the gang to hang out at, if they want. Nice! Crion fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Jun 6, 2015 |
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Jun 6, 2015 18:05
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A lot of Beasts inconsistencies and contradictions go away if you look at it as an intentionally misleading player book, along the lines of the Hackmaster PHB, the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, or Red level Paranoia information. The actual reality of in-game is way different than what the players think is going on. They're not primordial manifestations of dread and fear - they're pathetic, delusional weirdos and creeps. The Heroes are only "Heroes" because the "Beast" needs them to be. Because to admit a regular person's power over you acknowledges just how weak and powerless you really are. The Friendly's manager who threw you out for scaring kids? He must be a Hero of legend along the lines of Beowulf or Gilgamesh. Surely no mortal woman could pepper spray you, YOU the Primordial embodiment of fear itself, for groping her on the street. Lairs are hoarder's basements filled with useless trinkets pilfered from recycle bins. You're not Smaug, you're a guy who has convinced himself he's Smaug because the alternative is too dreadful to consider. You've found others like you, who reinforce your delusions in a toxic support group. What's missing is ST material that spells out what's really going on. It's rules from an unreliable perspective, for playing unreliable protagonists in an unreliable narrative. Consider this passage from the King in Yellow: quote:"Come, come, old fellow," he cried, "take off that brass crown ...and there's your Beast. It's a meta-game about the headgames of the most broken losers living in the World of Darkness. You're playing a character whose delusional grandeur has eclipsed their reality.
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Jun 6, 2015 18:13
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Kavak posted:What does the text say about why a player would want to play a Beast in a non-Beast campaign, by the way? General arguments for why a Beast, as opposed to some other gribbly, would be an attractive option for a one-man-out crossover with another game are surprisingly scarce. There's discussion of how a Beast would relate to each individual gameline, and discussion of general advice for crossover like "choose a theme and make sure your players create concepts that fit into it," etc. but as far as a generalized answer, this is as close as I see in the book: Beast: the Primordial posted:In any crossover game, a Beast’s primary role should be to subvert, challenge, and otherwise change the narrative. That’s not to say that Beasts should be hogging the spotlight or dragging the story off the rails to follow their own whims; rather, just as a straight Beast chronicle challenges the classic “hero slays the monster” narrative, the introduction of the Children into other chronicles should look at the themes and expectations of, for example, “a vampire story” and cast new light on them. Just as the best monsters of fable tell us something about ourselves, the best crossovers tell us something about our other monsters. So, the same drum Beast keeps relentlessly beating about "subverting the story," but turned on monsters instead of Heroes, usually in the context of contrasting the gribbly with a character who embraces and is comfortable with and unapologetic about her monstrosity. Not really anything specific about being a Grendel or what a Grendel means in another game, and I can't say I really follow what the appeal of subverting a story of, say, Changeling or Demon would be. Actually, I can't say I really follow what subverting the story of Changeling or Demon would even mean in this context.
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Jun 6, 2015 18:20
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moths posted:The Heroes are only "Heroes" because the "Beast" needs them to be. Because to admit a regular person's power over you acknowledges just how weak and powerless you really are. The Friendly's manager who threw you out for scaring kids? He must be a Hero of legend along the lines of Beowulf or Gilgamesh. Surely no mortal woman could pepper spray you, YOU the Primordial embodiment of fear itself, for groping her on the street. Lairs are hoarder's basements filled with useless trinkets pilfered from recycle bins. You're not Smaug, you're a guy who has convinced himself he's Smaug because the alternative is too dreadful to consider. You've found others like you, who reinforce your delusions in a toxic support group. Yawgmoth posted:How is it that literally every goon idea for Beast has been better by miles than what we're actually getting? Like seriously I would have actually funded any of these ideas over what we got.
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Jun 6, 2015 18:21
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I Am Just a Box posted:Not really anything specific about being a Grendel or what a Grendel means in another game, and I can't say I really follow what the appeal of subverting a story of, say, Changeling or Demon would be. Actually, I can't say I really follow what subverting the story of Changeling or Demon would even mean in this context. Charitably, it seems to mean substituting genre savvy for expression and pattern recognition for insight. Uncharitably, well, Dammit Who's take on how bad the subject matter can become when contrasted with Demon is pretty spot on.
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Jun 6, 2015 19:08
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moths posted:The Heroes are only "Heroes" because the "Beast" needs them to be. Because to admit a regular person's power over you acknowledges just how weak and powerless you really are. The Friendly's manager who threw you out for scaring kids? He must be a Hero of legend along the lines of Beowulf or Gilgamesh. Surely no mortal woman could pepper spray you, YOU the Primordial embodiment of fear itself, for groping her on the street. Lairs are hoarder's basements filled with useless trinkets pilfered from recycle bins. You're not Smaug, you're a guy who has convinced himself he's Smaug because the alternative is too dreadful to consider. You've found others like you, who reinforce your delusions in a toxic support group. You know, I thought making Heroes the villains was like making Don Quixote a villain. I had it backwards. They're not heroic, they're not villainous, they're just pitiable.
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Jun 6, 2015 19:15
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The Beast as a subverting know-it-all wearing a human suit could describe every gross weeabo I've ever known. Always plotting and scheming to enact their vile behaviour but aren't clever enough to get away with it and treats everyone who opposes them as some great tyrant. These are not people who see any grey.
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Jun 6, 2015 20:03
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Everybody's been writing off Taxi Man as a Beast that gets by on inconvenience, but the dude kind of creeps me out because he's distressingly similar to an actual abuse tactic. Sometimes, abusers strand their victim in a dangerous or frightening circumstance only to "rescue" them at the end. It forces the victim to completely submit to their abuser because, even if they were the person who exposed them to danger, they are also the only way out, and it lets the abuser reassert themselves as a protector, the good guy in the relationship. It's an actual way awful parents abuse their children to "teach them a lesson," but Beasts do it to get off on it. Framing it up as a harmless inconvenience or some kind of social justice is as much a lie as a father explaining that he does it to teach their kid discipline, to toughen them up, or just because it's his right as a parent to terrify his child into submission. The book gets coy about Hungers, seemingly just to deceive the player. Tim, the Trucker Beast, was also made fun of, because who would horde roadkill or care about it? But his section says he "can make roadkill just fine," and says that he favors family pets, so it's practically blaring "HE MURDERS YOUR PET TO HORDE ITS CORPSE AS A TROPHY" between the lines. At best, he just denies people closure by hiding bodies, at worst, there's a hero who watched Tim flatten the family dog and steal the corpse, and wants Tim to die for it. What a crazy neckbeard, am I right? The Collector and Nemesis pair are just tricking people into "stealing" so they can loophole it as punishment. There's a Ravager that feeds on breaking windows, but also has to emphasize that this wasn't, like, a thrown brick or a tree branch or w/e, he leaves a specific message to the resident that their home isn't safe (this is morally okay because they're rich). They have justifications or read-between-the-lines bits, but they're really about power and control. It's blatantly about abuse, but the narrative bias tries to skip us past that. Then the book gets straight-up hypocritical when it explains heroes. The thread shows how a lack of clarity is loving up the project--nobody can tell what the theme is really supposed to be or how exactly we're supposed to think about Beasts. What does "genre savvy" even mean if you don't have a shred of introspection?
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Jun 6, 2015 20:24
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