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Coolguye posted:Neu-Com is way more tactical than old-Com and I don't see how that's even a question. Between everyone having squad sight, not being able to open a loving door without barging through it, cross-map psi, no cover mechanics, and a host of other things, winning at old-Com was more about exploiting what the engine couldn't handle sanely rather than doing things that made sense. Percentages are what they are, but if you must have more encounters with the RNG in neu-Com, you also have many more tools to swing it in your favor. Flashbangs, in particular, are just absolutely incredible for making an entire enemy pod harmless while you envelop and butcher them. The early thin man battles are basically a hunk of roll-offs you need to push through so you can get back to playing XCOM. Splicer fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Jun 6, 2015 |
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Jun 6, 2015 19:23
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Splicer posted:The early thin man battles are basically a hunk of roll-offs you need to push through so you can get back to playing XCOM. Though, that said, EW actually made Thin Men easier to handle early on just because we got poo poo like Flashbangs for the low, low cost of Experimental Warfare research. Flashbangs really are amazing, far better than frags for most situations and objectively superior if you have a MEC along to handle demolition duty with Collateral Damage.
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Jun 6, 2015 19:26
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I don't think I ever used Flashbangs when I played EW, what do they do? Just a massive accuracy penalty?
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Jun 6, 2015 19:27
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Heh, if you think that's bad, impossible ups the ante and gives the sectoids 4 hp and thin men even more. FBs are an accuracy penalty plus a mobility penalty. Great for captures.
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Jun 6, 2015 19:28
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Internet Kraken posted:poo poo really? That would explain why a lot of my plans have been failing. I've been trying to use one hunkered down soldier as bait but if seeing him lets them know where my whole squad is no wonder I can rarely get good flanking shots. SHIVs are the best bait because with the amount of health they have they can take most shots aliens can dish out unless you trigger 9 aliens at once.
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Jun 6, 2015 19:29
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Geight posted:I don't think I ever used Flashbangs when I played EW, what do they do? Just a massive accuracy penalty? -50 Aim and a move penalty on par with Catching Breath. I'm pretty sure both a Thin Man and a Floater can only roll 4 squares max while disoriented. And it lasts for 2 turns. It's also worth noting that the Reaper Rounds you get from Experimental Warfare are a straight upgrade to everything but the shotgun, as assault rifles have an ideal range well over visual range and sniper rifles actually benefit from them since they have short-range penalties. Coolguye fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Jun 6, 2015 |
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Jun 6, 2015 19:29
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Coolguye posted:-50 Aim and a move penalty on par with Catching Breath. I'm pretty sure both a Thin Man and a Floater can only roll 4 squares max while disoriented. And it lasts for 2 turns. Also handy for melee aliens in a pinch if you need a way to slow them down. Never leave home without a couple of flashbangs.
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Jun 6, 2015 19:31
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Cythereal posted:You've never done exactly the same thing, moving to flanking positions on a pod and finding aliens in the fog of war? I think the aliens can hear your troopers just like you can hear them. It's not random it's just not significant the way you think it is and certainly doesn't have anything at all to do with concealment. Once activated, the aliens do not pretend not to know where fogged units are. Again, the whole notion of an "overwatch trap" is just the world's most tedious exploit. Edit: listen this isnt the first time I've had to argue with an entire thread that had deluded itself into thinking XCOM combat wasn't an elaborate character sheet roll-off because "no man impossible doesn't let you do that" Woozy fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Jun 6, 2015 |
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Jun 6, 2015 19:32
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I kinda wish Firaxis had followed suit with Bethesda and put the XCOM franchise on sale after announcing XCOM 2, just so I could buy my buddy EW on the cheap.
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Jun 6, 2015 19:33
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Woozy posted:It's not random it's just not significant the way you think it is and certainly doesn't have anything at all to do with concealment. Once activated, the aliens do not pretend not to know where fogged units are. Again, the whole notion of an "overwatch trap" is just the world's most tedious exploit. Do you have any proof at all of this? Have you done any code diving? Could you point us to the appropriate module? I'm a programmer myself and would be delighted to confirm this, and I would actually be enthused to be wrong because it would honestly be exciting to think that I don't know everything important about one of my favorite games. Have you shown this to be empirically true through extensive game play? If so, could you demonstrate what you're looking at and provide your old streams/videos for us to talk about? Or are you, like I suspect, talking directly out of your rear end? Cythereal posted:Also handy for melee aliens in a pinch if you need a way to slow them down. Never leave home without a couple of flashbangs.
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Jun 6, 2015 19:34
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dyzzy posted:FBs are an accuracy penalty plus a mobility penalty. Great for captures. Gas grenades are also really great, since they take a little damage off each time alongside the accuracy penalty.
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Jun 6, 2015 19:35
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Geight posted:I kinda wish Firaxis had followed suit with Bethesda and put the XCOM franchise on sale after announcing XCOM 2, just so I could buy my buddy EW on the cheap. http://www.greenmangaming.com/s/us/en/pc/games/strategy/xcom-enemy-within/?affsrc=1&utm_medium=affiliates EW: It's 7.50 with a steam key on Greenmangaming right now, if you want it right now. On steam. http://www.greenmangaming.com/s/us/en/pc/games/strategy/xcom-enemy-unknown-complete-edition/?affsrc=1&utm_medium=affiliates This one is the ENTIRE NewCom franchise for $10. DLC and everything. EU, EW, all the little bits. Steam Key, as well. Drifter fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Jun 6, 2015 |
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Jun 6, 2015 19:36
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Woozy posted:It's not random it's just not significant the way you think it is and certainly doesn't have anything at all to do with concealment. Once activated, the aliens do not pretend not to know where fogged units are. Again, the whole notion of an "overwatch trap" is just the world's most tedious exploit. So you're just babbling nonsense in an X-COM thread and getting dismayed when everyone points to all evidence disproving your point and refusing to provide any evidence of your own to support your case. The burden of proof is on you, Woozy. Provide actual evidence that what you claim is true and what we claim is wrong or stop talking.
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Jun 6, 2015 19:38
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Coolguye posted:-50 Aim and a move penalty on par with Catching Breath. I'm pretty sure both a Thin Man and a Floater can only roll 4 squares max while disoriented. And it lasts for 2 turns. Hot drat.  I should've played around with EW more, but when I won my second C/I run attempt I felt a little... disillusioned? I guess. Compared to how long it took me to win C/I in EU, which was a lot of effort. I'm in this weird spot where I feel like I can handle Classic but Impossible is a brick wall, so I just stopped playing.Drifter posted:sale stuff
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Jun 6, 2015 19:38
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Coolguye posted:Do you have any proof at all of this? Have you done any code diving? Could you point us to the appropriate module? I'm a programmer myself and would be delighted to confirm this, and I would actually be enthused to be wrong because it would honestly be exciting to think that I don't know everything important about one of my favorite games. you're the one making an outrageous claim, dude. Go make a video in which you predict exactly when and on which turn the AI will fall for the "trap" you're describing. Try to replicate this even semi-reliably. Getting fogged soldiers flanked by aliens on their next turn is completely trivial
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Jun 6, 2015 19:39
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Woozy posted:Edit: listen this isnt the first time I've had to argue with an entire thread that had deluded itself into thinking XCOM combat wasn't an elaborate character sheet roll-off because "no man impossible doesn't let you do that" I'm not wrong, it's this entire thread that's wrong, as given by my following compelling arguments:
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Jun 6, 2015 19:39
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Cythereal posted:So you're just babbling nonsense in an X-COM thread and getting dismayed when everyone points to all evidence disproving your point and refusing to provide any evidence of your own to support your case. The burden of proof is on you, Woozy. Provide actual evidence that what you claim is true and what we claim is wrong or stop talking. What shred of whatever you think evidence is has shown up on this page
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Jun 6, 2015 19:40
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Woozy posted:What shred of whatever you think evidence is has shown up on this page Not that it wasn't obvious before, but now you're just admitting that you're trolling. 
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Jun 6, 2015 19:41
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Geight posted:Hot drat. Woozy posted:Edit: listen this isnt the first time I've had to argue with an entire thread that had deluded itself into thinking XCOM combat wasn't an elaborate character sheet roll-off because "no man impossible doesn't let you do that" Woozy posted:you're the one making an outrageous claim, dude. Go make a video in which you predict exactly when and on which turn the AI will fall for the "trap" you're describing. Try to replicate this even semi-reliably. Getting fogged soldiers flanked by aliens on their next turn is completely trivial Coolguye fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Jun 6, 2015 |
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Jun 6, 2015 19:43
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Coolguye posted:Both you and the AI get the sound inputs of 'what was that noise?' That's almost certainly what you're seeing. There was only a single spot he could move to for the flank, which was also only possible because I moved to a single stupid spot. If the 'what was that noise' prompts are that accurate for the aliens, I don't see the practical difference between that and maphacks.
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Jun 6, 2015 19:44
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Let me amend: As discovered by the long war team exploring the literal game code: If no alien can see any trooper, the aliens do NOT know where you are except for vague sound cues. If any alien can see any trooper, all aliens know where every trooper is. If your squad is completely obscured from the enemy, the aliens can NOT magically know how to flank you, although rear end in a top hat thin men will still sometimes guess correctly just by virtue of having a million movement. If a single alien can see even your forward spotter is, then they know exactly where your sniper way back at the beginning of the map is, which is how floaters know where to launch. This knowledge is important to how overwatch traps work: By hunkering your forward observer, an alien will often advance to shoot at a lower defense trooper that was out of sight at the beginning of its activation. It also means you have to protect every flank that an enemy can possibly reach, even if it doesn't seem like it should know to go there. Tendales fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Jun 6, 2015 |
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Jun 6, 2015 19:46
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Coolguye posted:I suspect it isn't the first time you've walked off in a huff when people pointed out that there is a team of developers who have vivisected the game that say you're wrong, too. Okay let me put it this way instead: you're not first person who has inferred more from an AI behavior that was actually there Edit: quote:If they knew where you were, they would simply go to your outer visual range as the ideal move; Overwatch only triggers if you go from one overwatched square to another. Stopping on the perimeter of the overwatch will not trigger it. this is literally what the aliens do and its about the only thing you've mentioned so far that is reliably true of how the aliens interact with fogged units. Woozy fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Jun 6, 2015 |
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Jun 6, 2015 19:47
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Woozy posted:Okay let me put it this way instead: you're not first person who has inferred more from an AI behavior that was actually there Ha, I had edited this into my last post, but here you go: Like I said, you can watch almost any of Beaglerush's videos to see it demonstrated at one point or another, you can look at the Long War devs's posts (which are easily available on their forums) to see how they say the code itself is working, and you can even easily confirm the difference in behavior by loading up the game right now. Drop an overwatch in view of most alien types, such as a Sectoid or Thin Man. Do they move, and trigger the trap? No, they do not. Now back up and use Overwatch. Do they move, and trigger the trap? Yes, they frequently do! If they knew where you were, they would simply go to your outer visual range as the ideal move; Overwatch only triggers if you go from one overwatched square to another. Stopping on the perimeter of the overwatch will not trigger it. There is a potential counter-example in Floater AI here - they will frequently choose to spring Overwatch regardless of whether or not they see you do it. They're noted by everything you're given on them to be mindlessly aggressive, however, and tactically it makes sense because they can take to the air and have half-cover regardless of their actual cover situation. Woozy posted:Edit: It's also worth noting that if this was actually true, your description of it being a tedious exploit wouldn't even be a thing, as nobody would use this tactic! Coolguye fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Jun 6, 2015 |
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Jun 6, 2015 19:49
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Tendales posted:New XCOM's actually really straightforward in how it handles the aliens being able to see you. If any alien can see any trooper, then they know where your entire team is. If no alien can see any trooper, then they have to guess where you are, based on where they last saw you, sound cues, and general blundering. Wait, but that can't be how it works. It sounds reasonable, but if you know where a pod is, an easy and basically foolproof way to get a big advantage against that pod is to run a soldier around them or even straight past them; the aliens will scamper to the ideal cover against that dude, leaving them totally vulnerable to the rest of your forces.
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Jun 6, 2015 19:53
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Tendales posted:As discovered by the long war team exploring the literal game code: If no alien can see any trooper, the aliens do NOT know where you are except for vague sound cues. If any alien can see any trooper, all aliens know where every trooper is. Iny posted:Wait, but that can't be how it works. It sounds reasonable, but if you know where a pod is, an easy and basically foolproof way to get a big advantage against that pod is to run a soldier around them or even straight past them; the aliens will scamper to the ideal cover against that dude, leaving them totally vulnerable to the rest of your forces. I believe scamper is handled by a different decision set; that would make both of these posts true, and Tendales's post does make a lot of sense and ring a bell with what I read about it a long time back.
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Jun 6, 2015 19:55
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Woozy posted:Okay let me put it this way instead: you're not first person who has inferred more from an AI behavior that was actually there What part of "they have decompiled the game" do you not understand? Iny posted:Wait, but that can't be how it works. It sounds reasonable, but if you know where a pod is, an easy and basically foolproof way to get a big advantage against that pod is to run a soldier around them or even straight past them; the aliens will scamper to the ideal cover against that dude, leaving them totally vulnerable to the rest of your forces. Right, they will have listened to sound cues or whatever and will take cover against your other troops too. You can still completely gently caress them up with the right surround setup though, combined with limited cover options. I got lucky on the military base map the other day and spooked a group of sectoids, leaving half of them standing out of cover or easily flanked.
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Jun 6, 2015 19:56
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Coolguye posted:Could you explain literally any video of Beaglerush's, then? Triggering Overwatch is how he gets a substantial number of his kills! Find a video of him doing this that doesn't also include an incredibly awkward argument with his wife and I'll watch it the next time I have four hours to kill
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Jun 6, 2015 19:58
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Jun 6, 2015 20:00
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Woozy posted:Find a video of him doing this that doesn't also include an incredibly awkward argument with his wife and I'll watch it the next time I have four hours to kill Dude, if you can't be bothered to be honest, I can't be bothered to do anything but internet fight with you. You're mistaken and you made yourself look like the ur-goon. Deal with it.
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Jun 6, 2015 20:00
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Woozy posted:Find a video of him doing this that doesn't also include an incredibly awkward argument with his wife and I'll watch it the next time I have four hours to kill Youtube is a thing.
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Jun 6, 2015 20:00
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Cythereal posted:Youtube is a thing. Okay great good go there and find an example of this totally not a tedious exploit that demonstrates this: Cythereal posted:Concealment is still a vitally important thing in Newcom. Now it also provides an important element of defense and promoting a more cautious, tactical game rather than playing rocket tag where the first guy or alien to spot and hit the other wins. is both an example of concealment (using the definition of concealment preferred by earthlings) and a real design element as opposed to some hilarious grongnardy horseshit conjured up by the battered wives of long war to avoid the RNG Woozy fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jun 6, 2015 |
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Jun 6, 2015 20:08
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Woozy posted:is both an example of concealment (using the definition of concealment preferred by earthlings)
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Jun 6, 2015 20:09
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Woozy posted:If you can't take a shot at a unit it isn't concealed! Woozy posted:listen this isnt the first time I've had to argue with an entire thread that had deluded itself into thinking XCOM combat wasn't an elaborate character sheet roll-off because "no man impossible doesn't let you do that"
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Jun 6, 2015 20:14
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Woozy posted:hilarious grongnardy horseshit This from the guy who is really mad that new xcom isn't simulation-focused like old-xcom was. 
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Jun 6, 2015 20:14
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Woozy posted:Okay great good go there and find an example of this totally not a tedious exploit that demonstrates this: Sorry, the burden of proof is on you about concealment working the way you claim it does. I use overwatch amd flanking traps almost every mission I play in X-COM, so you demonstrate why this shouldn't work or is an "AI exploit"... which, by the way, means it's how the AI works and I use it to my advantage, just like how I exploit the AI by using heavy cover to exploit the fact that the AI likes to shoot at my troopers.
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Jun 6, 2015 20:16
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Moddington posted:This from the guy who is really mad that new xcom isn't simulation-focused like old-xcom was. XCOM2 had better have Guile Hair Physics. 
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Jun 6, 2015 20:18
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Coolguye posted:I'm not convinced this is actually true from personal experience, but by the same token typically if you're this close to engaged and have the opportunity to envelop the enemy like that, it doesn't really matter if they know where the hammer is coming from since they don't have a good move to make. So I can't say this for certain. Floaters will use Launch to come down in flanking positions of soldiers they can't see, and sectopods will artillery barrage from across the map always knowing where you are. The sectopod one I know because back in EU I bonked into a sectopod at the start of a downed transport ship, and it teleported back to the opposite end of the map. The camera would repeatedly recenter on one of my troops each time the barrage was prepped, and the next turn, sure enough, missiles land where my soldiers were just standing.
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Jun 6, 2015 20:18
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Coolguye posted:Yours has changed twice so far so I'm not sure we know that one yet. And here I was hoping you couldn't be bothered. Okay the definition of concealment required by the argument is one that would make this statement true in English: Cythereal posted:Concealment is still a vitally important thing in Newcom. Now it also provides an important element of defense and promoting a more cautious, tactical game rather than playing rocket tag where the first guy or alien to spot and hit the other wins. and not just the usual "posturing goony goon responds to criticism with a strategy guide" that Games is so fond of.
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Jun 6, 2015 20:19
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We've forgotten our ways, thread
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Jun 6, 2015 20:19
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Iny posted:Wait, but that can't be how it works. It sounds reasonable, but if you know where a pod is, an easy and basically foolproof way to get a big advantage against that pod is to run a soldier around them or even straight past them; the aliens will scamper to the ideal cover against that dude, leaving them totally vulnerable to the rest of your forces. Scamper has its own logic, yeah. It still takes into account unseen forces, but they're weighted differently in the AI's decisions of where to go. You can actually see Beagle agonize over positioning his squad Just So a lot of times when breaching the UFO, hoping to get the outsider to run where he wants.
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Jun 6, 2015 20:19
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