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Poison Mushroom posted:The game is set up so you don't actually know if there's a traitor. This makes the difficulty really, really wonky if there is. But even just using the supported "always a traitor" or "never a traitor" houserules, the implementation of the traitor and objective rules are a mess. Yep, nailed it. Semi-cooperative is a bloody nightmare from a balance perspective. Archipelago and Tomorrow get it right in that the games can't be won without some cooperation, but are ultimately about winning for yourself. They use hidden information to prevent trailing players from spiking the game, and have the metagame element that players shouldn't be so stupid as to let the trailing players get so clearly behind that they know for a certainty they can't win. This means the game doesn't have to be the main obstacle to player success. Dead of Winter, on the other hand, by notionally being a PvE game has to be balanced the conditions of the game itself are already challenging enough that players must work together simply to keep the game going. Yet, the design pisses in the pool by creating the idiotic dual victory condition (personal goal + shared goal) to even create the uncertainty necessary for a traitor role to even function. This means that the game has to balanced to be a reasonable challenge with no traitor, but also winnable with a traitor. If they stuck to the formula of BSG, the game they're ripping off, and always had at least one traitor, it'd be a better game, instead of the crapshoot it is now. EDIT: Also, just ignore anything 4outof5 posts. He or she never posts anything that isn't just being contrary with no justification given, beyond 'herp derp goon hivemind'. The End fucked around with this message at 05:35 on Jun 7, 2015 |
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Jun 7, 2015 05:33
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EvilChameleon posted:I love 2p Troyes. I also don't generally care for 2p games. How does it feel different with 2p? Do you normally play with 4? Second game was more interesting. Better distribution of activity cards. Maybe my understanding of the game is a little shallow still, but it feels like some of the activity cards are pretty poor relative to others. The red dice also seem tricky to maintain with the black dice beating on you, although we had outlaw chief and war as events pretty early on. Archer did some work, though. The end game is arithmetic heavy as you try and eek out points from all the possibilities of rerolling, stealing, not wasting remainders, etc. But trying to predict which dice your opponent will snag on the next turn is pretty interesting. It's basically a draft that you can influence both before and during.
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Jun 7, 2015 05:33
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Bubble-T posted:I played Terra Mystica on the weekend and was actually kind of underwhelmed by it. I'm really not sure why, it works and everything, maybe I finally understand what other people mean when they say a Euro is too 'dry'. Kind felt like a joyless exercise in number crunching and doing whatever fit your faction's special ability best, and going to the BGG strategy forums didn't help me care about it more - a lot of faction statistics and discussion that reminds me too much of video-game style 'make sure you pick the right stuff before the game even starts' variety that I enjoy less and less these days. It didn't light my fire the first time, but the more I play it, the more I like it and it's now a favourite. Stick with it.
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Jun 7, 2015 05:41
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If you want a semi coop can I interest you in Fire in the Lake? 
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Jun 7, 2015 05:44
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I forgot to mention it, but I played Kemet for the first time a couple weeks ago. I really, really liked it! We played a 5-player game, and I managed to win through being very movement-centric. I used the two-way teleport, additional movement, and reduced costs powers so that I could basically move just about anywhere on the map in a single action. This allowed me to always get the bonus VP for having two or more temples, and I won lots of engagements by having a very large troop against the weakest ones on the map. Good game. Would play again.
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Jun 7, 2015 05:47
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Speaking of thematic co-op games, has anybody played Xenoshyft? Watch it Played did a runthrough that made it look like it had some interesting ideas, but I'm not exactly sold.
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Jun 7, 2015 06:07
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Poison Mushroom posted:The supposed idea is that each loyalist player has a secret agenda that they have to fulfill or they don't win, tearing them between "best for the group" and "best for me", but the catch with that is that when one of them becomes impossible, there's no way for the player to get any kind of partial victory by focusing on the other. It's a really schizophrenic and unsatisfying system that tries to make you play selfishly, then punishes you for doing so. Not to mention, the non-traitor goals are supposed to make everyone suspicious. But instead, they give everyone a perfect cover story. "Why are you hoarding all the food?" "Need it for my secret goal." "Why aren't you helping search for medicine?" "Secret goal stuff, sorry." "Can you at least clean up the place maybe?" "I'll get to it in a second, need to secure my secret goal first." This makes it impossible to ferret out a traitor based on behavior, because there's always a perfectly good excuse. There's no meaningful way to actually gain information on the identity of the traitor.
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Jun 7, 2015 07:01
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Fenn the Fool! posted:Speaking of thematic co-op games, has anybody played Xenoshyft? Watch it Played did a runthrough that made it look like it had some interesting ideas, but I'm not exactly sold. I've played Xenoshyft, but if I had to play a co-op deckbuilder I'd probably choose Legendary: Aliens. I mean, I guess technically I'd choose Mage Knight, but Legendary: Aliens is more comparable. Xenoshfyt isn't necessarily bad, but I was sorta bored with it by the end of the game.
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Jun 7, 2015 07:30
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Gutter Owl posted:Not to mention, the non-traitor goals are supposed to make everyone suspicious. But instead, they give everyone a perfect cover story. In the times I've played it we just haven't let that be a valid excuse - somebody being so obviously unhelpful would be exiled easily. As the traitor I've tried to do the minimum sabotaging/unhelpfulness possible and found it to be a difficult balance, just playing normally until the double-turn (the standard opportunity for savaging) would generally not let me win.
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Jun 7, 2015 07:36
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thespaceinvader posted:Ours go in baggies underneath the inserts. But Mage Knight lives in at least two boxes; unless you sacrifice the inserts you can't fit it all in one box anyway the minute you get any expansions. Sacrifice the non-vital part of the inserts:   What's left of Wolfwhawk and Volkare's insert is on the top left.   Doesn't fit exactly the way I want it to, but it's easy enough to get the stuff.   I'm pretty sure I could cram Krang in there, but not the second expansion 
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Jun 7, 2015 08:05
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There is balm in Gilead...
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Jun 7, 2015 08:13
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28 bucks for something that's obsoleted by expansions, oh boy. I use snack baggies and three ultra pro deckboxes and I'll be able to fit the new expansion with no problem.
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Jun 7, 2015 08:27
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I've played dead of winter doth in these forums and in real life and I think my main issues are with how the victory conditions are implemented and the limited ways that you have to sabotage without being really obvious about it (it's much harder to cover your tracks on a sabotage than even BSG). I've already gone into some lengths regarding those points as well. I would also like to note that there were a lot of people hyped for the game when it was first released as well, especially in this thread. A lot of opinions changed, mine included, when we got to try out the game. Some opinions didn't change and that's fine to be honest. I'd rather see the thread filled with dissenting opinions and discussion rather than an echo chamber.
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Jun 7, 2015 09:28
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Clanpot Shake posted:I saw Homeland in the store today and the back of the box read a lot like BSG (which I love). What's the verdict on this game? It's a game of managing multiple BSG style crisis decks in a semi-coop (shared loss condition for most of the players). I've played it twice and enjoyed it. It feels very frantic and like everything is constantly going to poo poo. It's more fun if you all wear bluetooth headsets and occasionally shout "TOOOOOONY"* *Nobody has seen Homeland, so we just make vague reference to 24 while playing.
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Jun 7, 2015 09:40
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Wrong side of the ocean. $53,75 is a bit too much.
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Jun 7, 2015 10:29
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ConfusedUs posted:I forgot to mention it, but I played Kemet for the first time a couple weeks ago. I really, really liked it! We played a 5-player game, and I managed to win through being very movement-centric. I used the two-way teleport, additional movement, and reduced costs powers so that I could basically move just about anywhere on the map in a single action. This allowed me to always get the bonus VP for having two or more temples, and I won lots of engagements by having a very large troop against the weakest ones on the map. There is no two-way teleport. There's the power that lets you teleport between Obelisks, but nothing lets you teleport back to a pyramid. Also if everyone wasn't stabbin' yo rear end by about the second time you did a surprise attack, they were playing wrong. You should have been getting your poo poo pushed in by three different players all of whom had better cards than you. Re: Xenoshyft and Legendary Encounters - I have both, and I have to say LE is better and faster. Xenoshyft isn't bad, and it's certainly more of a challenge, but it takes more time than it should. I think I'll be selling my copy on once I receive the sleeves they missed out from my KS package.
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Jun 7, 2015 10:30
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cenotaph posted:28 bucks for something that's obsoleted by expansions, oh boy. From what I've heard, it at least fits everything up through Krang, and will most likely fit the newest one as well. It's pretty nice in any case, makes setting up a game a snap.
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Jun 7, 2015 10:51
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Tekopo posted:I've played dead of winter doth in these forums and in real life and I think my main issues are with how the victory conditions are implemented and the limited ways that you have to sabotage without being really obvious about it (it's much harder to cover your tracks on a sabotage than even BSG). I've already gone into some lengths regarding those points as well. This is really the main reason why the majority here don't like Dead of Winter: It seemed so promising. The semi-coop genre is dominated by BSG and Archipelago, both of which are long and complicated, and especially BSG has issues with being played out and slightly unbalanced. I guess Resistance is also in the genre, but that's so stripped down that it leaves out the PvE component entirely. DoW promised a lighter semi-coop, and even with zombies (everyone secretly wants a good zombie game) with tonnes of flavour, but it ended up falling short on the mechanics, it didn't really do anything well, except being an experience generator. It's a mediocre game that tried to fill a niche that we really wanted to see filled, that's why we hate it.
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Jun 7, 2015 11:07
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Fat Samurai posted:Sacrifice the non-vital part of the inserts: All part of the insert are non-vital. Inserts are dumb. You storage nerds are so funny, two boxes? lol I have both expansions and room for the new one, baggies and elastics forever! 
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Jun 7, 2015 12:02
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*shrug* it's not my game. If I was storing it I'd chuck the inserts for sure.
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Jun 7, 2015 12:24
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Poison Mushroom posted:The game is set up so you don't actually know if there's a traitor. This makes the difficulty really, really wonky if there is. But even just using the supported "always a traitor" or "never a traitor" houserules, the implementation of the traitor and objective rules are a mess. I'm just going to invite chaos and say that DoW is better than Battlestar because (like Betrayal) it knows when to end the game. The variable objectives are a problem in DoW but the card effects in Battlestar result in scenarios where one cylon has revealed themself, another cylon is still hidden and actively loving everything, and you can't do anything about it because you're a pilot or engineer and none of your cards apply to throwing someone in the brig. And there are 4 tracks that don't go down quick enough so it reaches a point where I'm just like "gently caress it, throw it in the towel." There's nothing satisfying about that. All the problem's of DoW's traitor apply to Battlestar. You either play bad, not really doing anything, or wait for a critical moment and throw your whole hand in at which point the other players can usually do absolutely nothing about it. And again, the nature of skill checks ensures that political/tactical Cylons stay in power and even when they are ousted as cylons they can still contribute to skill checks. Why? Is the increased difficulty with fewer players not enough that the cylon can also cancel out another player completely? It reaches a point where you're just drawing crisis cards and intentionally failing them (knowing you can't win) and praying that they have a jump icon. I don't understand the appeal of Galactica. I haven't seen the show, and everyone I've played with says the power struggle is incredibly thematic. But never have I played a game that didn't have Parker Bros. or Mattel written on the side where you can do fine then get completely locked down and unable to do anything without a winner immediately declared. And it goes on for 2-3 hours. DoW may have a lovely traitor mechanic but at least the game ends when poo poo spirals. Battlestar will push you into the dirt then repeatedly kick you in the stomach instead of putting a bullet in your head.
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Jun 7, 2015 13:01
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Bottom Liner posted:You just reminded me of my biggest gripe with the game; variable player difficulty due to the personal objectives. The person beside you might have a secret goal that synergizes really well with their character(s) and the main goal, and you might have one that's completely at odds with everything on the board, making your mission a lot harder to "win". poo poo, you don't even need the board against you for your objective to be harder: the person next to you might have an objective that's a proper subset of yours. Apparently they thought "there's no way to make the objectives equally difficult, so why bother even pretending to try?"
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Jun 7, 2015 14:16
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My Dead of Winter experience is going from an objective I couldn't easily complete (Have specific weapons) to being exiled for trying to complete my personal goal first to becoming a traitor with an objective I was already winning by far (most characters) and just summoning zombies or whatever the action was until the good guys lost. At least BSG's win conditions are pretty simple and universal for each side except the Cylon Leader, which is optional anyway and ends up a bit more streamlined in Daybreak.
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Jun 7, 2015 14:49
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Poopy Palpy posted:poo poo, you don't even need the board against you for your objective to be harder: the person next to you might have an objective that's a proper subset of yours. Apparently they thought "there's no way to make the objectives equally difficult, so why bother even pretending to try?" There are also objectives that can be stupidly easy to complete. One of them is to exile a betrayer if there is one, which means means you have a ~50% chance of not needing to do anything for it.
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Jun 7, 2015 14:56
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fozzy fosbourne posted:Second game was more interesting. Better distribution of activity cards. Maybe my understanding of the game is a little shallow still, but it feels like some of the activity cards are pretty poor relative to others. The red dice also seem tricky to maintain with the black dice beating on you, although we had outlaw chief and war as events pretty early on. Archer did some work, though. I also feel like some of the activity cards are odd. I haven't really played with The Ladies of Troyes to get a great feel for it, but the last time I played with it the bandit chief or whatever was the first turn event and it just made the game kinda miserable. I don't feel like Ladies was really well done but maybe I need more plays of it to 'get' it. I'm perfectly content with the base game, though. I feel like maybe some of the underwhelming cards are just part of combos I haven't realized yet. I know there are some cards I felt that way about and then I saw something that was fantastic and got that. More playing for both of us, it seems! Bubble-T posted:I played Terra Mystica on the weekend and was actually kind of underwhelmed by it. I'm really not sure why, it works and everything, maybe I finally understand what other people mean when they say a Euro is too 'dry'. Kind felt like a joyless exercise in number crunching and doing whatever fit your faction's special ability best, and going to the BGG strategy forums didn't help me care about it more - a lot of faction statistics and discussion that reminds me too much of video-game style 'make sure you pick the right stuff before the game even starts' variety that I enjoy less and less these days. This is how I felt about Terra Mystica. I've only played it once, and it seems like a perfectly fine game, just not a game that interests me personally. I'd still play it again but the prospect doesn't excite me or anything.
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Jun 7, 2015 15:12
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al-azad posted:I'm just going to invite chaos and say that DoW is better than Battlestar because (like Betrayal) it knows when to end the game. The variable objectives are a problem in DoW but the card effects in Battlestar result in scenarios where one cylon has revealed themself, another cylon is still hidden and actively loving everything, and you can't do anything about it because you're a pilot or engineer and none of your cards apply to throwing someone in the brig. And there are 4 tracks that don't go down quick enough so it reaches a point where I'm just like "gently caress it, throw it in the towel." There's nothing satisfying about that.
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Jun 7, 2015 15:43
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Mega64 posted:My Dead of Winter experience is going from an objective I couldn't easily complete (Have specific weapons) to being exiled for trying to complete my personal goal first to becoming a traitor with an objective I was already winning by far (most characters) and just summoning zombies or whatever the action was until the good guys lost. The problem with all hidden traitor games is that you have to allow a player to sabotage something, but still allow the good guys to figure out who did it. Both BSG and DoW have this problem and they don't handle it well, but I do feel that DoW sets it up even worse: in order to be able to even do the remotest bit of sabotage into a skill check, you need to be following people around in order to get items from locations other people have been to, and then play those cards, which usually leads to a 50/50 choice between if you did it or the other guy. BSG has the same issue with making it easy to guess who played what due to the different skill card colours, but at least you don't have to set up the sabotage like you would in DoW (an action which by itself can be considered scummy). I would say that Al-azad exaggerates when he says that it is impossible to win a skill check once you have a couple of revealed cylons: since they can only play a single card to sabotage, you still can usually win a check if you want, you just have to manage hands and make sure that what you are choosing is actually worth it: this is much better than the crossroad non-choices that DoW presents you with. Both BSG and DoW are flawed game to say the least (there is a reason why I sold my copy of BSG).
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Jun 7, 2015 15:54
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PerniciousKnid posted:The humans always outnumber the cylons, particularly if one has revealed himself. You should usually be able to Brig one eventually, between the Admirals Quarters and the Quorum cards. And once the cylons are brigged/revealed, their skill check contributions are gimped. I agree the game drags sometimes, but my experience has never been as bad as you're describing, and you can always resign the game early if it's really that lopsided (two tactical cylons who brigged all the humans or something). I really dislike the sleeper agent mid-game reveal. If the cylon is hidden during the second loyalty phase they're at an incredible advantage (especially if they're sitting next to each other) unless they're unlucky enough to be the sole cylon. And character abilities are another wrench in the game's balance. A cylon Laura has immediate access to "go directly to jail" and can look at two crisis cards. A cylon Saul can practically brig people by himself. I've only ever played the game with 5 and when we lose it's because two known cylons don't have to reveal themselves because together they can avoid the brig. I don't know how the balance would change in 4 or 6 when a sympathizer is added but I think I would enjoy the game more knowing at least one player (who is possibly already a cylon) is automatically brigged or is flat out revealed as a cylon. And there's a bit of added strategy in that a revealed cylon prior to the mid point who gets the sympathizer can pass it off if they get it. Tekopo posted:I would say that Al-azad exaggerates when he says that it is impossible to win a skill check once you have a couple of revealed cylons: since they can only play a single card to sabotage, you still can usually win a check if you want, you just have to manage hands and make sure that what you are choosing is actually worth it: this is much better than the crossroad non-choices that DoW presents you with. The destiny deck will gently caress you more than help you. Even with one cylon you've still got 3 cards that will potentially ruin even a 7-point skill check. al-azad fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Jun 7, 2015 |
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Jun 7, 2015 16:28
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Potentially ruin is the point, though. You just need to pick which events are absolutely necessary or not. Hand management is a part of the game and especially if you airlock or force cylons to reveal in the brig you hinder their ability to damage you.
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Jun 7, 2015 16:38
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Jedit posted:There is no two-way teleport. There's the power that lets you teleport between Obelisks, but nothing lets you teleport back to a pyramid. Yeah, obelisk teleport is what I meant. I also had lots of extra movement so I could still get anywhere in one turn. One guy had an absolutely terrifying army but didn't do much with it. The others played very defensively.
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Jun 7, 2015 17:32
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Rutibex posted:elastics forever! You know how sometimes celebrities cry over animal cruelty? That's me when it comes to using elastics to store board games. 
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Jun 7, 2015 18:29
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I've been using rubber bands for years with no problem. I also don't sleeve cards. My preferred shuffle method is the riffle shuffle.
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Jun 7, 2015 18:32
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Magnetic North posted:You know how sometimes celebrities cry over animal cruelty? That's me when it comes to using elastics to store board games. Use these instead. Much less likely to mark or damage components.
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Jun 7, 2015 18:47
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ConfusedUs posted:One guy had an absolutely terrifying army but didn't do much with it. The others played very defensively. Yep, definitely playing wrong. It's possible to win with a hard defensive strategy in Kemet, but only one person can do it and everyone else has to attack you.
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Jun 7, 2015 18:56
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Jedit posted:Yep, definitely playing wrong. It's possible to win with a hard defensive strategy in Kemet, but only one person can do it and everyone else has to attack you. It was the first game for most of us. So that's to be expected. I just played so that I was always attacking the weakest looking army, and made sure anything I held was also not the weakest. It left me in a pretty good position most of the game!
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Jun 7, 2015 19:02
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 Total cost: $30. That's roughly $3/lb price to weight ratio!
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Jun 7, 2015 20:18
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Anyone played CLINIϽ? No opinions on Lewis & Clark and The Capitals, either?
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Jun 7, 2015 23:54
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Trip report from my solo game of Mage Knight! Did better than i thought i would be still ended up just short of conquering the last city because of lovely enemy draws. Maybe it's just because playing solo means you don't really have means to go everywhere and get everything but i feel like i left way to much stuff behind me as i went so i felt kinda underleveled and a bit underprepared by the end. Also i'm very sad i only managed to ever find one freaking monastery to burn down. I kinda wish i had just taken a picture or somthing but at the end i just wanted to put everything up and go to bed so sorry 
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Jun 8, 2015 00:49
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First game for everyone playing Viticulture tonight. 4 players, took about 2 hours with my lovely explanation. I didn't really know how to advise people what to do with their stuff since I hadn't played it before myself. I was surprised that trying to get all your workers ASAP didn't give me some huge advantage because most of the time there weren't great actions to take. I feel like I was trying to powergame something that wants me to take it slow and just enjoy the scenery.
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Jun 8, 2015 04:02
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EvilChameleon posted:First game for everyone playing Viticulture tonight. 4 players, took about 2 hours with my lovely explanation. I didn't really know how to advise people what to do with their stuff since I hadn't played it before myself. I was surprised that trying to get all your workers ASAP didn't give me some huge advantage because most of the time there weren't great actions to take. I feel like I was trying to powergame something that wants me to take it slow and just enjoy the scenery. I've played about 10 solo games, and as far as I can tell so far the smartest course of action is to get grapes planted and harvested as quickly as possible so they can start gaining value. I still haven't managed to beat the Automa player, but I feel like I'm getting there.
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Jun 8, 2015 04:07
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