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Uhh.. DBM.  poo poo is about to get crazy.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:05
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Hiro Protagonist posted:So what are the odds that people other than Goku will even do poo poo in Super? Like, I feel that the Goku train cannot be stopped, even though that seems like the only way to make a decent story. As long as whatever villains are there have minions for weaker people to fight I'm fine with it. The Frieza saga was the best for other people getting to shine a little bit.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:13
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Justin_Brett posted:As long as whatever villains are there have minions for weaker people to fight I'm fine with it. The Frieza saga was the best for other people getting to shine a little bit. Yeah, it was good for spreading out stuff. Also for large parts of it, there were three legit-ish factions all interacting differently with each other, with the Earthlings and Namekians on one side, Frieza's forces on another, and Vegeta running around wild carding between them. It was a cool dynamic, and I'd love to see it in Super.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:16
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New Leaf posted:Uhh.. DBM. Something tells me it'll blowback in Babidi's face if he decides that route.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:23
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BMB5150 posted:Something tells me it'll blowback in Babidi's face if he decides that route. Yeah, dude couldn't even keep Vegeta under his thumb. I don't see how Babadi has a chance of controlling Vegito.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:30
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The most annoying thing is that the even when the side characters get some focus they usually spend that time freaking out and going "where's goku?" Goku is basically poochie
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Jun 7, 2015 19:44
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Great Beer posted:The most annoying thing is that the even when the side characters get some focus they usually spend that time freaking out and going "where's goku?" "I have to go, my planet needs me. Well, not immediately."
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Jun 7, 2015 19:54
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ImpAtom posted:Yeah, I think this is why it feels so "Goku steals the kill." Goku spends almost the entire plot out of commission in every single arc after freaking Raditz. He actually has a fairly small amount of screentime comparably so it feels less earned when he gets a big victory because he slots himself in right at the end. You'd have to change the whole structure of Toriyama's fights for something like that to work, outside of Goku going Super Saiyan and Gohan going Super Saiyan 2 none of the protagonists ever get stronger inside a major fight; instead people turn up, fight, get tagged out or disengage and power up through plot devices to be relevant again, very few fights are ever closely contested and won through sheer skill or ingenuity and those that are are at the front end of the show before it became all saiyans, all the time. Goku turning up to finish the fight is the logical end point of a battle which was chained from Vegeta to Gohan to Piccolo back to Vegeta (in Frieza's case) or however many hundreds of encounters constituted the Buu Saga, if he were the main fighter the majority of time the show would be almost completely unrecognisable in structure to what we know.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:55
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Xibanya posted:Goku's focus is annoying to me in Z because it feels unearned. He gets the glory without having to hang out in the plot the whole time. That's probably why the series feels way too Goku-focused when he spends most of DBZ out of commission for one reason or another. It only focuses on him in Saiyan and Namek though, and those both at least had him training the entire time offscreen to a ridiculous level to build up him coming back (and were directly following up on Dragon Ball). The android saga turned it on its head (oh, you were looking for Goku, nope, it's Gohan), and he wasn't around much at all in Buu and wasn't the focus even when he was* *except in the anime where he gets way more focus, attention, and screen time
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Jun 7, 2015 20:13
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Even when he's not onscreen everyone is talking about him so story-wise he is the focus even in the androids arc. Also I bought a cheap lovely piccolo figure at the airport that I'll upload a picture of when I get a chance. I also got a toy egg ball thing from a vending machine that promised Battle of God toys but I got a loving Uub toy for my trouble. I wanted a Beerus or Goku, drat it!  Sadly I ran out of 100 yen coins so I couldn't try again.I also bought a shitload of Jojo manga which I had never read before (I had only played the rom for th arcade game) and it is an amazing punch mans and its art is hugely different from DBZ in every way. I might put up some comparisons of similar situations since the volumes I bought (Jotaro vs Dio) were published at the same time as later DBZ. I kind of bought too much manga. After awhile I made a rule for myself: "no Jojos". But I couldn't resist and amended it to "OK, some Jojos." In Making Comics, Scott McCloud talks about how good comics tell stories on a scale of clarity to intensity. Jojo is hugely intense and it makes DB's clarity all the more apparent.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:23
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Xibanya posted:I also bought a shitload of Jojo manga which I had never read before (I had only played the rom for th arcade game) and it is an amazing punch mans and its art is hugely different from DBZ in every way. I might put up some comparisons of similar situations since the volumes I bought (Jotaro vs Dio) were published at the same time as later DBZ. It starts off looking nothing like DBZ, then it starts looking nothing like itself. The series kind of transcends art style.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:29
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So given that a lot of the Dragonball cast became either sidelined or disappeared entirely in Z, who wants to take bets on which characters will get that treatment in Super? As to the whole Goku thing, I think it's just an extension of people's frustrations that by end of Z if you weren't Saijin, you weren't poo poo. Even Krillin and Piccolo eventually became rather sidelined, never mind the rest of the cast. It'd be nice to see them get a power up in Super along with some named enemies of their own to fight and defeat, no Goku/Vegeta involved. It's not likely though.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:30
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:Yeah, dude couldn't even keep Vegeta under his thumb. I don't see how Babadi has a chance of controlling Vegito. I mean, Bardock did have that premonition of Vegito freaking the gently caress out and the others saying that he was dangerous... But yeah, I don't think Babidi's going to be able to pull this one off. ...I could see him giving Kakarot the Majin boost, though. Spiritus Nox fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Jun 7, 2015 |
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Jun 7, 2015 20:31
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tsob posted:So given that a lot of the Dragonball cast became either sidelined or disappeared entirely in Z, who wants to take bets on which characters will get that treatment in Super? As to the whole Goku thing, I think it's just an extension of people's frustrations that by end of Z if you weren't Saijin, you weren't poo poo. Even Krillin and Piccolo eventually became rather sidelined, never mind the rest of the cast. It'd be nice to see them get a power up in Super along with some named enemies of their own to fight and defeat, no Goku/Vegeta involved. It's not likely though. I'm going to hope that the series focuses on the Resurrection "F" cast and tries to have them all be useful, even if it is against the more unimportant enemies and then they're cannon fodder for the final boss so Goku beats him. This would still mean that Krillin, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Gohan and Roshi get massive boosts in power and importance (since the movies have been terrible to Gohan, unlike the series). I'll take anything other than GT's "all Goku, all the time" though.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:37
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Super starts with Goku and Vegeta being literal equals, which only happened similarly at the beginning of Z with Goku and Piccolo, so we shouldn't have to worry about Goku being a solo star. Gohan is in full out nerd mode, so he'll probably get sidelined. It really depends on where the series focuses - if it's all "other universes," it will probably be Goku, Vegeta, and new people (good and bad). If it sticks on Earth, then Toriyama will find something for SOME of the cast to do.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:42
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Maybe Uub will become the new powerhouse next to goku and vegeta. A true human super powered superduperstrong superguy
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Jun 7, 2015 20:42
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Did Roshi even do anything other than make jokes in Z? I don't recall him fighting at any point in Z at least, not even in the very beginning. It's been a long time since I saw most of it though. I can't see him of all people getting a power-up and some fights in Z. It seems about as likely as Yajirobi or Chaotzu getting some focus.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:43
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Zzulu posted:Maybe Uub will become the new powerhouse next to goku and vegeta. A true human super powered superduperstrong superguy Krillin is still stronger than Uub. The Strongest Human! Let Krillin and Piccolo train a bit with god dudes and they'll get up there. Up until mid-Buu saga they were always catching up, though usually were about a half step behind.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:44
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tsob posted:Did Roshi even do anything other than make jokes in Z? I don't recall him fighting at any point in Z at least, not even in the very beginning. It's been a long time since I saw most of it though. I can't see him of all people getting a power-up and some fights in Z. It seems about as likely as Yajirobi or Chaotzu getting some focus. Roshi didn't do poo poo in Z, no. However, he does join the cast to fight Freeza's army in Resurrection "F" and even gets to beat quite a few mooks as shown in the trailer (and uses that sweet super-buff MAX Power form), hence why there's some hope for him being part of the main cast in Super, it'd just follow from Toriyama's character choices in the latest movie.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:45
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Roshi did nothing at all in Z. The series started with him being stated to be irrelevant (when Bulma scoutered him), and he didn't do anything ever again. edit: beaten, and not counting Ressurection F
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Jun 7, 2015 20:45
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Darko posted:Gohan is in full out nerd mode, so he'll probably get sidelined. It really depends on where the series focuses - if it's all "other universes," it will probably be Goku, Vegeta, and new people (good and bad). If it sticks on Earth, then Toriyama will find something for SOME of the cast to do. It'd be neat if they had a side story involving the old gang dramatically raising the standard of living by teaching how to fight with magic, create super-alloys and all that other stuff. Plus, we'd have plenty of room for drama as certain people go mad with power, and can top it all off with a tournament between various apprentices, who are mastered by the old guard. 
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Jun 7, 2015 20:46
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 Check out this 900 yen (~ $8) figure I got. It's rubbery and it has a DB Heroes trading card sealed in the tag. It actually looks pretty good. There were also SSJ Goku and Vegeta figures in the same line but they looked like dogshit.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:46
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I just reread the Saiyan saga in the manga, and because of the way the training is paced, with each situation getting a few panels, or a chapter or two focus in Gohan's case, the only time Goku is actually out of the story is when they are fighting Nappa, and the fight with Vegeta is huge and amazing. That fucker is the biggest tank in the series, jesus.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:49
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Thyrork posted:It'd be neat if they had a side story involving the old gang dramatically raising the standard of living by teaching how to fight with magic, create super-alloys and all that other stuff. Having a tournament with Vegeta and Goku being off planet/universe would be amazing.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:52
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Roshi only did stuff in the World Tournaments and in the movies.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:52
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Prison Warden posted:I just reread the Saiyan saga in the manga, and because of the way the training is paced, with each situation getting a few panels, or a chapter or two focus in Gohan's case, the only time Goku is actually out of the story is when they are fighting Nappa, and the fight with Vegeta is huge and amazing. That fucker is the biggest tank in the series, jesus. The Vegeta battle's great, it's probably the only one in all of Z where both sides just keep trading haymakers basically for the duration for the fight - Freeza, Cell, and to a slighty lesser extent Buu are generally characterized by one side or the other holding an overwhelming advantage until someone gets a key powerup and turns the tables. With Vegeta, aside from his relatively brief stint as a giant monkey, he and Goku (and Gohan, Krillin, and Yajirobe down the final stretch) just keep beating the poo poo out of each other until the fight finally ends with everyone in a bloody heap on the floor, looking around in a daze and hoping that the other guy can't get up again.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:53
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Krillin is still stronger than Uub. The Strongest Human! Let Krillin and Piccolo train a bit with god dudes and they'll get up there. Up until mid-Buu saga they were always catching up, though usually were about a half step behind. I hope Piccolo becomes a Namekian God or something to catch up. He's been able to keep up with the most bullshit race in the entire universe, he could learn how to use God ki super quickly too. ^^^^ You can kind of feel that the Vegeta fight more or less comes directly off the heels of the Piccolo fight. Similar levels of "both sides put everything into it and don't stop" except Vegeta outlasts Goku.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:54
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The Saiyan Saga Vegeta fight is the best fight in the entire series.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:55
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Yeah, it's like the only fight that seems like it took actual teamwork to complete. Man, there really aren't many team fights in the entirety of Dragon Ball, are there. I mean ones where the team takes down the big bad, obviously lots of fights where the team is getting its poo poo kicked in. There's like the Raditz fight and the Vegeta fight. Oh, and the Captain Ginyu fight, man that was a clusterfuck. I guess Guldo counts too.
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Jun 7, 2015 21:00
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Twiddy posted:I hope Piccolo becomes a Namekian God or something to catch up. He's been able to keep up with the most bullshit race in the entire universe, he could learn how to use God ki super quickly too. I wonder what a God ki human or Namekian would look like. And do you need to do the five people of the same race ki thing first to become a God ki user, even with training by Bills afterwards, or can you just go straight to the Bills training and skip that five person thing altogether and it was just that Bills couldn't be bothered with waiting for the training in Battle of Gods?
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Jun 7, 2015 21:02
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I just like how the show makes it look like Vegeta should be beaten like 4 times before the fight's actually over. After losing the beam struggle, getting his tail cut off, getting Spirit Bombed, getting his poo poo slashed by Yajirobe - they could have easily ended the fight at any of those points, but motherfucker just kept getting up angrier than before. I love how by the end of it he's basically out of ki but he's still staggering around punching people with the power of pure spite.
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Jun 7, 2015 21:04
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Thyrork posted:It'd be neat if they had a side story involving the old gang dramatically raising the standard of living by teaching how to fight with magic, create super-alloys and all that other stuff. This is basically Dragon Ball Online's backstory. Gohan publishes a book showing all the fun Ki stuff to the entire world, this causes martial arts to suddenly become popular, Krillin and Tenshinhan take over their respective schools while Goten and Trunks make their own blending swords and Ki. Also there's a lot of sets of Dragon Balls with far less power around the world because Dende wanted to make the world seek adventure. Age 1000 is a really great time to be alive in the Dragon World is what I'm trying to say. tsob posted:I wonder what a God ki human or Namekian would look like. And do you need to do the five people of the same race ki thing first to become a God ki user, even with training by Bills afterwards, or can you just go straight to the Bills training and skip that five person thing altogether and it was just that Bills couldn't be bothered with waiting for the training in Battle of Gods? The five person thing is only for Saiyans to become Super Saiyan Gods. It probably wouldn't work for any other race. In Xenoverse, Beerus says he's training you to learn his Godly moves, so your character can learn God Ki (not like it makes any difference beyond being able to use Beerus' Sphere of Destruction). If we take this as canon, then humans, Saiyans, Nameks, Majin and people of Freeza's race at the very least can learn God Ki entirely by training with someone who can use it, though it's also important to note that the Future Warrior is insanely good at learning moves, as many mentors point out. My hope is that this happens in Super, Whis just takes everyone to train them in God powers because something big will hit the Earth and losing all that food would be such a waste.
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Jun 7, 2015 21:19
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Twiddy posted:Yeah, it's like the only fight that seems like it took actual teamwork to complete. The first 2/3rds of the Frieza fight counts.
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Jun 7, 2015 22:12
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Spiritus Nox posted:I mean, Bardock did have that premonition of Vegito freaking the gently caress out and the others saying that he was dangerous... But yeah, I don't think Babidi's going to be able to pull this one off. I'm sure he could cast the spell. It seems like a good way to get reduced to ash, is all.
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Jun 7, 2015 23:34
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Let me rant for a bit. I've been watching Dragon Ball Kai as a way to rewatch the series, since the original is definitely far too long. I got to Cell, by far my favourite fight as a kid. I couldn't remember why, it's been years, but I sure as hell remembered that something about this fight hit me far harder than any other. Watching it, I fully realized what it was, it's the first time in the series in which it becomes impossible to root for Goku. The fight between Goku and Cell is impressive, but after that, with Goku throwing Gohan into the mix and giving Cell a Senzu Bean, the audience fully joins with the other heroes in asking what the gently caress was Goku thinking. And then, Cell brutally beats up Gohan to draw out his hidden power. The audience knows, Goku knows, everyone knows that power exists. Yet, Gohan is just getting beaten up to a pulp, unable to resist, unable to use said power. Goku stands still, a grin in his face, as if nothing whatsoever was wrong. Goku and Cell are saying the same things, aiming for the same power. It's chilling unlike anything else, our pure-hearted hero is being just as bad as the villain. For many writers, the audience should be with Goku in his gamble...yet, it's absolutely clear it is not the case here. We're absolutely meant to disagree with Goku. For the first time, we're meant to see Goku as being in the wrong. Normally, his mistakes are merely being too kind, so we're meant to agree with his pure heart in spite of being idiotic and self-destructive, even moreso when it succeeds (Piccolo, Vegeta). Yet, not here. Here, Goku is being no different from the villain. And EVERYONE knows it. Piccolo especially. If there's a moment that makes it clear just how much Piccolo knows Gohan, how much Gohan matters to Piccolo, it's here. Piccolo loving SNAPS and outright tells Goku how he never told Gohan what he was meant to do, how Goku sees a warrior but what Gohan truly is is a scared little kid who is going through pain beyond equal and wondering why his dad is not helping. And Goku's reaction is perfect, he goes from having a stupid grin that makes you wonder if he really went full retard from that time he hit his head and it's showing now, to truly scared and worried, truly realizing just how much he hosed up. And yet, it's too late to fix it. Way too late. Cell is completely fixed with getting Gohan's anger out, and now realizes just pain won't cut it. He needs to make those close to Gohan suffer. He steals the Senzu Beans, and sends the Cell Jr. And it works. Everyone gets beaten up, unable to counterattack (even Goku, their strongest, is simply far too weakened, he should've eaten a Senzu Bean when he had the chance but didn't for a "fair fight"). Cue 16. He fails to blow himself up, but that doesn't stop him. He encourages Mr. Satan, a coward who doesn't deserve the slighest bit of respect, to embrace a heroic spirit that anyone else would not believe exists. He appeals to his pride, if he is TRULY the World Champion, he will help 16. Even Mr. Satan's followers think this is stupid and he will run...and yet, he doesn't. The Mr. Satan who had only made a fool out of himself, fully realizes that he can't stand still and do nothing. He wanted to run away, but he can't. Right now, it's his time to shine. A poor kid is getting beaten to death, he can't keep standing on the sidelines and allowing it. Even if the only thing he can do is put himself in danger to throw 16, he will goddamn do it. And he does...and 16 gets killed, but not before telling Gohan the words that Goku should have before the fight even began. It's not wrong to be angry, and it's not wrong to use violence against those that would threaten the world's peace. Sometimes, it is the only way out. To protect the nature and animals 16 loved so much. And then Cell crushes 16, and finally obtains what he wanted: Gohan snaps. His anger overflows, and he turns into a Super Saiyan 2! A truly epic scene in which the music and Gohan's silence, followed by a battle shout perfectly compliment the situation...if you're watching Z, that is, because Kai fucks it up! This is my actual motive to rant: What the gently caress, Toei?! In the original, the moment Gohan finally snaps, the absolutely amazing Unmei no Hi ~Tamashii vs Tamashii~ starts playing. It's undeniably the perfect fit for the scene, it fully pumps you up. Yet...in Kai, it's replaced with the generic danger music. It's incredibly unfitting and hurts the scene a lot. I simply can't understand it. The scene is still amazing, the battle is still amazing, but why? Why would you change this? Kai's been great at adding new character songs at appropiate moments (such as Trunks' "The Lone Warrior" or Freeza's "Only a Chilling Elegy"), yet, here, a scene that would've loved a new song about Gohan if you couldn't stay with Unmei no Hi, gets a completely unfitting generic song. It totally took me out of by far my favourite moment in the entire series. Blaze Dragon fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 7, 2015 23:57
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The dub soundtrack for that part, was great too, it really made you feel like Gohan could take on Cell and it was the capstone to a character arc lasting the entire show up to that point.
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Jun 8, 2015 00:05
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A couple of pages back someone was saying that they can see why Gohan wasn't made the main hero post-Cell the way the arc obviously sets him up to become with Goku choosing to stay dead, because Gohan isn't a warrior in the same way Goku and Vegeta are and doesn't enjoy violence, but personally I don't agree and your rant reminds me of it. Gohan doesn't enjoy fighting or violence in the same way his father and Vegeta do, but he has been fighting against megalomaniac conquerors of various kinds since he was a baby and has seen first hand the kind of devastation that they can inflict, especially on Namek and spent years training because he was so horrified by the idea of such happening to anyone. Early in the show he appears to study mostly because his mother wants him to, while he trains because he wants to be strong to help stop that poo poo whenever it occurs. And then in the Buu saga he just no longer cares about it to nearly as much of a degree and is more concerned with study for it's own end, rather than because Chichi is forcing it on him. Gohan could have made a good lead in my opinion, just a very different one in personality to Goku - more of a Superman type hero, someone who dislikes fighting, but knows that it is necessary and is ready to do it should the cause arise because he knows it. Toriyama himself didn't agree though, going by interviews and while the interview doesn't say why he felt Gohan wouldn't make a good hero, I assume it's simply because he wanted to keep the kind of light-hearted tone the series has always had and probably felt that Gohan's more serious attitude would interfere with that. Which is understandable, as much as I might wish otherwise.
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Jun 8, 2015 00:13
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Issue with that scene is they claim he's not a fighter but he's done nothing but fight of his own volition after the Saiyan Saga. Even during the hyperbolic time chamber he only thinks about defeating Cell. To the point he starts yelling at Goku for being too soft on him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Hq0U812Qqc It's like Gohan knows how to Swim, Goku puts him in the pool after saying he wants to swim and Gohan refuses to swim and everyone gets mad at Goku cus Gohan is drowning and apparently not a swimmer. Kild fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 00:37
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Kild posted:Issue with that scene is they claim he's not a fighter but he's done nothing but fight of his own volition after the Saiyan Saga. Even during the hyperbolic time chamber he only thinks about defeating Cell. I think it's that Gohan only fights when he has to. if the world is at peace, he basically just moves on to something else (like in the Buu saga) whereas Goku and Vegeta are pure siayans, they LIVE to fight and will continue to fight no matter what else happens. He doesn't have that same kind of inner passion for combat Goku does.
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Jun 8, 2015 00:39
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Prison Warden posted:I think it's that Gohan only fights when he has to. if the world is at peace, he basically just moves on to something else (like in the Buu saga) whereas Goku and Vegeta are pure siayans, they LIVE to fight and will continue to fight no matter what else happens. He doesn't have that same kind of inner passion for combat Goku does. I agree, but Gohan still fights villains and he wanted to fight Cell. He went into the time chamber only to fight Cell. He talks about how he's tired of holding back his friends by being too weak or too scared.
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Jun 8, 2015 00:47
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