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EugeneJ posted:Bernie's plan would help eradicate systemic racism with financial reform that takes more money from the rich and gives more money to the poor and middle-class. As far as actual racism like white people burning down entire towns 100 years ago...maybe if everyone was educated and had money, regardless of their race, that wouldn't happen? Please explain why rich blacks still face racism, then, especially and in particular from educated middle-class and rich whites. Look, racism in America has many faces, and one of them is systemic social and cultural racism that has little to do with economic status. It can be mitigated, but not eliminated, with education. It is just plain wrong that fixing wealth inequality and other economic problems will cure racism.
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Jun 7, 2015 23:57
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EugeneJ posted:As far as actual racism like white people burning down entire towns 100 years ago...maybe if everyone was educated and had money, regardless of their race, that wouldn't happen? Well, this seems like the basis for your argument, so... prove it, I guess.
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Jun 8, 2015 00:03
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EugeneJ posted:So..you're handwaving the discrimination I introduced to the conversation and you questioned...because your discrimination is more important? What discrimination? quote:
Do you not consider black people not getting jobs because they're black 'real racism'?
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Jun 8, 2015 00:30
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Feather posted:Please explain why rich blacks still face racism, then, especially and in particular from educated middle-class and rich whites. No one thinks this, but economic inequality and poverty is one of the most potent arms of racism in America, and anything that reduces that will challenge it significantly.
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Jun 8, 2015 00:31
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:No one thinks this, but economic inequality and poverty is one of the most potent arms of racism in America, and anything that reduces that will challenge it significantly. The flip side of this is that you can't reduce economic inequality and poverty for non-whites unless you directly challenge racism. The fact that Bernie doesn't mention this makes him at best naive and at worst aware that today's society won't listen to him if it sounds like he's supporting the Blacks and Mexicans.
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Jun 8, 2015 00:35
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taqueso posted:Jim Carrey as Scott Walker No way, David Schwimmer as Scott Walker. They both have that glazed-over "constantly drinking cough syrup" look in their eyes.
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Jun 8, 2015 00:41
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Well, economic inequality is directly tied to racism in America, and challenging it is a direct challenge to racism.
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Jun 8, 2015 00:42
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I think it's easier to understand it in the sense that wealth/economic inequality is one of the many forms racism is expressed in society. Even if you mandate a $15/hr minimum wage or create a true UHC system, it might make baseline suffering less pronounced, but the inequality and culture that structures it is going to remain the same. They will still face higher hurdles in getting jobs, and the justice system is still going to be stacked against them. Saying that Bernie's economic plans on their own will somehow solve all these things seems to come from the assumption that people discriminate against black people because they're statistically poor/disadvantaged, not because they're black.
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Jun 8, 2015 00:43
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:Well, economic inequality is directly tied to racism in America, and challenging it is a direct challenge to racism. Your logic is "If we solve X, we can solve (or at least significantly impact) Y without any extra effort". The reality is that in order to solve X, you have to solve Y at the same time, using unique solutions for each problem.
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Jun 8, 2015 00:44
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computer parts posted:Your logic is "If we solve X, we can solve Y without any extra effort". That's not my logic at all, and I'm not saying Bernie would eliminate or even significantly reduce racism (and neither would Hillary). I just think tackling economic inequality and poverty would absolutely help in the fight and alleviate the most clear and blatant example of racism in America, the class divide between races.
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Jun 8, 2015 00:48
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:Well, economic inequality is directly tied to racism in America, and challenging it is a direct challenge to racism. How? What's the mechanism of action?
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Jun 8, 2015 00:51
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Cantorsdust posted:**Surgeon anti-contamination measures**
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Jun 8, 2015 00:54
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:That's not my logic at all, and I'm not saying Bernie would eliminate or even significantly reduce racism (and neither would Hillary). I just think tackling economic inequality and poverty would absolutely help in the fight and alleviate the most clear and blatant example of racism in America, the class divide between races. Lots of people would disagree that that is the most clear and blatant example of racism. Even that aside though, tacking economic inequality and poverty will disproportionately benefit whites because of the existing racism of the system. True, maybe you'll help more non-whites, but only because all the whites already escaped poverty.
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Jun 8, 2015 00:58
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Obdicut posted:How? What's the mechanism of action? Keeping minorities in perpetual poverty is absolutely an arm of racism, and reducing that cycle is absolutely a challenge to it. Yes, if tomorrow we achieved Full Communism and everyone was economically equal, there would still be a huge fight against racism, but saying that reducing economic inequality would not be a blow against racism in America, where the two are directly intertwined, is really silly. Martin Luther King posted:The problem indicates that our emphasis must be twofold: We must create full employment, or we must create incomes. People must be made consumers by one method or the other. Once they are placed in this position, we need to be concerned that the potential of the individual is not wasted. New forms of work that enhance the social good will have to be devised for those for whom traditional jobs are not available... Work of this sort could be enormously increased, and we are likely to find that the problem of housing, education, instead of preceding the elimination of poverty, will themselves be affected if poverty is first abolished. The poor, transformed into purchasers, will do a great deal on their own to alter housing decay. Negroes, who have a double disability, will have a greater effect on discrimination when they have the additional weapon of cash to use in their struggle. Marin Luther King posted:want to say to you as I move to my conclusion, as we talk about "Where do we go from here?" that we must honestly face the fact that the movement must address itself to the question of restructuring the whole of American society. There are forty million poor people here, and one day we must ask the question, "Why are there forty million poor people in America?" And when you begin to ask that question, you are raising a question about the economic system, about a broader distribution of wealth. When you ask that question, you begin to question the capitalistic economy. And I'm simply saying that more and more, we've got to begin to ask questions about the whole society. We are called upon to help the discouraged beggars in life's marketplace. But one day we must come to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring. It means that questions must be raised. And you see, my friends, when you deal with this you begin to ask the question, "Who owns the oil?" You begin to ask the question, "Who owns the iron ore?" You begin to ask the question, "Why is it that people have to pay water bills in a world that's two-thirds water?" These are words that must be said. quote:There is another thing closely related to racism that I would like to mention as another challenge. We are challenged to rid our nation and the world of poverty. Like a monstrous octopus, poverty spreads its nagging, prehensile tentacles into hamlets and villages all over our world. Two-thirds of the people of the world go to bed hungry tonight. They are ill-housed; they are ill-nourished; they are shabbily clad. I’ve seen it in Latin America; I’ve seen it in Africa; I’ve seen this poverty in Asia... Sheng-Ji Yang fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 01:04
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None of Bernie's critics (here) disagrees that race & class are intertwined. Indeed, the main criticism is that Bernie doesn't seem to think they are intertwined, otherwise he would have mentioned race in some context.
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Jun 8, 2015 01:11
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computer parts posted:None of Bernie's critics (here) disagrees that race & class are intertwined. Indeed, the main criticism is that Bernie doesn't seem to think they are intertwined, otherwise he would have mentioned race in some context. Has Bernie Sanders ever said he doesn't think race and class are intertwined? Because I seriously doubt that. quote:The New York Times and other media have focused enormous attention on the tragedy in Ferguson, Mo., where an unarmed black youth was shot and killed by a police officer. Unfortunately, there has been very little discussion about the economic and social tragedy that has befallen an entire generation of young black men.
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Jun 8, 2015 01:17
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:No one thinks this, but economic inequality and poverty is one of the most potent arms of racism in America, and anything that reduces that will challenge it significantly. Well, I read Eugene's post as "thinking" just that very thing, but that's my interpretation and I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if that's not the case. Otherwise I'm in 100% agreement with you. I just disagree that it will challenge racism enough. I mean, don't get me wrong, the idea that Hillary actually is interested in addressing racism at all from any direction is a farce partisans attempt to delude others with (whether they've self-deluded or else are knowingly engaged in partisan propaganda is an exercise for the reader). Her history is a long history of supporting and pursuing policies that are deleterious to minorities economically and socially (i.e. they bolster the systemic racism in America), her recent pandering about voting rights (hard to exercise them when you're three-striked out of the "privilege") and immigrants and of the disingenuous "mea culpa" over her and her husband's actions in the 90's notwithstanding. computer parts posted:The flip side of this is that you can't reduce economic inequality and poverty for non-whites unless you directly challenge racism. Obdicut posted:How? What's the mechanism of action? Feather fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 01:19
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:Has Bernie Sanders ever said he doesn't think race and class are intertwined? Because I seriously doubt that. That article literally goes from "this is a tragedy, but the real tragedy is unemployment." Like yeah, if black kids were educated more then cops wouldn't shoot them.
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Jun 8, 2015 01:21
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Dick Van Dyke can play Ron Paul in a cameo role. Cheering Rand on as he beats the family's personal record to finish second in Iowa.
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Jun 8, 2015 01:22
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Cliff Racer posted:Dick Van Dyke can play Ron Paul in a cameo role. Cheering Rand on as he beats the family's personal record to finish second in Iowa. Ron Paul would probably be fine with playing himself.
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Jun 8, 2015 01:24
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computer parts posted:That article literally goes from "this is a tragedy, but the real tragedy is unemployment." lol thats not what he saying at all, he's saying it's a tragedy that black poverty and unemployment is ignored by the media.
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Jun 8, 2015 01:25
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:Keeping minorities in perpetual poverty is absolutely an arm of racism, and reducing that cycle is absolutely a challenge to it. Yes, if tomorrow we achieved Full Communism and everyone was economically equal, there would still be a huge fight against racism, but saying that reducing economic inequality would not be a blow against racism in America, where the two are directly intertwined, is really silly. You didn't explain the mechanism of action. See, here's my mechanism of action: Racism causes employers to select against black candidates for jobs, fire them first, and pay them less. This causes economic inequality. Now, how does economic equality cause racism? Feather posted:
That's not a sufficient answer in any way, no. In fact, it works against your claim.
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Jun 8, 2015 01:25
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:lol thats not what he saying at all, he's saying it's a tragedy that black poverty and unemployment is ignored by the media. Because if only that black kid had a job, police brutality would have ended.
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Jun 8, 2015 01:26
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computer parts posted:Because if only that black kid had a job, police brutality would have ended. Again, he doesn't say that at all.
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Jun 8, 2015 01:27
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computer parts posted:Because if only that black kid had a job, police brutality would have ended. On that note, from the Guardian's article on the FPD report: quote:The man accused of paedophilia with no probable cause
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Jun 8, 2015 01:28
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:Again, he doesn't say that at all. You're right, he doesn't talk about police brutality at all. Kind of weird since it's in a letter talking about Ferguson.
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Jun 8, 2015 01:28
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Obdicut posted:
It's a perfectly sufficient answer, and if you actually knew anything about the history of slavery and America you'd understand why. That's why I wrote what I did: it's simply not worth the time to give you an entire history of slavery and its relationship with the economy (at large and specifically for that minority group) in a forums post. I'd basically be providing the entire education you should have received from middle-school through undergraduate study.
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Jun 8, 2015 01:39
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Feather posted:It's a perfectly sufficient answer, and if you actually knew anything about the history of slavery and America you'd understand why. I know a lot about the history of slavery in America. quote:That's why I wrote what I did: it's simply not worth the time to give you an entire history of slavery and its relationship with the economy (at large and specifically for that minority group) in a forums post. I'd basically be providing the entire education you should have received from middle-school through undergraduate study. Again, i know a lot about the history of slavery in America. That's why I said it works against your point. Blacks were put into servitude through racism, not through economic inequality. Post-freedom, they were kept in penury and destitution through racism--economic inequality in the black community was caused by economic inequality. Economic inequality was not the cause of racism. Does this help you understand? Obdicut fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 01:46
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Obdicut posted:I know a lot about the history of slavery in America. Blacks were put into servitude through racism for economic purposes. This is a silly chicken and the egg argument when, as I said, they are inexorably linked issues. You can address racism and indirectly address inequality and poverty, and address inequality and poverty and indirectly address racism.
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Jun 8, 2015 01:50
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:Blacks were put into servitude through racism for economic purposes. Yes, they were. That doesn't equate to 'economic inequality' caused racism. Slavery was not 'economic inequality'. And American society would not have tolerated white slaves in the same way they tolerated black slaves. quote:This is a silly chicken and the egg argument when, as I said, they are inexorably linked issues. You can address racism and indirectly address inequality and poverty, and address inequality and poverty and indirectly address racism. They are not inexorably linked. You can have circumstances of economic equality with racism. They are often linked, but not inexorably linked. For example, the arrest of the contractor above was not due in any way to economic inequality. That he then lost his job obviously has economic outputs. It is really important that white liberals understand this poo poo. Obdicut fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 01:54
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As far as Grant's / Teacher's level goes I like Famous Grouse
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Jun 8, 2015 01:57
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mooyashi posted:As far as Grant's / Teacher's level goes I like Famous Grouse Someone posted in the wrong, yet truly the right thread. 
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Jun 8, 2015 02:05
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Jesus christ you idiots, Bernie's whole 'gimmick' for decades is income inequality, just because he hasn't expounded upon much policy or ideas yet in his first presidential campaign which is all of two months old doesn't make him a secret racist. It makes him a not very fleshed out candidate which allows for his 'gimmick' to seem as Bernie's silver bullet to every problem ever. Which he may actually think but I don't believe its fair to call it quite yet.
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Jun 8, 2015 02:13
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comes along bort posted:Someone posted in the wrong, yet truly the right thread. 
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Jun 8, 2015 02:15
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Jesus christ you idiots, Bernie's whole 'gimmick' for decades is income inequality, just because he hasn't expounded upon much policy or ideas yet in his first presidential campaign which is all of two months old doesn't make him a secret racist. It makes him a not very fleshed out candidate which allows for his 'gimmick' to seem as Bernie's silver bullet to every problem ever. Which he may actually think but I don't believe its fair to call it quite yet. Nobody is calling him a secret racist. People are saying he shares a flaw common among many white liberals in this country, that of not really understanding the issues that confront the Black (and other minority) communities in the US. Using Ferguson to talk about economic inequality is an example of this. Nobody--or at least, I'm not--doubting his sincere desire to improve the lives of Black americans. So I believe it is you, sir, who is the idiot.
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Jun 8, 2015 02:16
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ErIog posted:Ron Paul would probably be fine with playing himself. Sacha Baron Cohen as Ron Paul.
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Jun 8, 2015 02:27
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I concede that I may be an idiot but I still don't see why this is a huge sticking point. To effectively address racism we're going to need congress to pass laws and programs and judges to uphold them and I doubt Bernie's going to appoint rightwingers to the courts.
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Jun 8, 2015 02:28
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Raskolnikov38 posted:I concede that I may be an idiot but I still don't see why this is a huge sticking point. To effectively address racism we're going to need congress to pass laws and programs and judges to uphold them and I doubt Bernie's going to appoint rightwingers to the courts. I think it's a huge sticking point because someone decided to come in here and opine on what ails the black community (how ignorant they are).
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Jun 8, 2015 02:30
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Badger of Basra posted:I think it's a huge sticking point because someone decided to come in here and opine on what ails the black community (how ignorant they are). Well there was that idiot but this isn't the first time race and Bernie have been brought up.
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Jun 8, 2015 02:36
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I watched Perry's announcement speech and was so distracted by the two goons flanking him. I'm not familiar with Texas politics - do candidates always travel with two professional wrestlers in their entourage? Edit: I also rewatched the 2012 Rick Perry 'Oops' moment - it's still the most amazing flame-out I've ever seen. He was really on fire and owning the debate and then just crashed and burned. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCyTQEANlmM sharkbomb fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 02:44
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