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Ferrinus posted:I think I saw Stephen Lea Sheppard suggest on rpg.net that if you reversed the chronological order entirely - Heroes have always existed, and they periodically generate Beasts to slay, and you're one of the few Beasts that managed to flip the script and escape - then at least the stuff about subverting narratives would begin to make even the slightest bit of sense. I actually really like this, especially if you flip the power structure- Heroes are degenerate types, powerful people whose self-righteousness and hypocrisy touch something in reality that twists innocent people into monsters for the self-proclaimed Heroes to fight. Humans who've been twisted must find a way to balance the Beast within with maintaining their Integrity and let's pretend that's not Vampire, and figure out how to survive in a hostile world run by people who hate them except poo poo, that's Werewolf with the Pure and Promethean with everybody. Still, I think it'd be a way cooler game, one that would justify the Family theme (as desperate Beasts reach out to other supernaturals, no friends to monster hunters themselves, for allies) and one that could easily be worth playing while emphasizing that being a Beast is something society forced on the Beast rather than something chosen.
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Jun 8, 2015 15:05
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The only kind of Beasts I can see myself playing is the Cryp Keeper, telling horror stories about other Beasts to scare people.spectralent posted:I've seen it argued that not all Beasts necessarily go around tormenting and murdering people and some of them pick retributive targets. Given the ratios, though, I'm not sure how good an argument it is. The joke about #NotAllBeasts has already been made.
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Jun 8, 2015 15:06
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spectralent posted:I've seen it argued that not all Beasts necessarily go around tormenting and murdering people and some of them pick retributive targets. Given the ratios, though, I'm not sure how good an argument it is. One of the beast hungers is literally the hunger for Punishment. It's unfortunately one of the more vaguely defined hungers and it bleeds over into the Tyrant and Predator hungers a lot. It also doesn't help that one of the sample characters has an elaborate setup manufactured to create 'lawbreakers' who he can punish. quote:Patrick and Ahmed are a Makara Collector and a Makara Nemesis, respectively, who fell in love.
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Jun 8, 2015 15:10
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Can a Beast's hunger for Punishment be a self-directed humiliation fetish? Do hungers have to be inflicted on somebody else?
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Jun 8, 2015 15:14
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Pope Guilty posted:I actually really like this, especially if you flip the power structure- Heroes are degenerate types, powerful people whose self-righteousness and hypocrisy touch something in reality that twists innocent people into monsters for the self-proclaimed Heroes to fight. Humans who've been twisted must find a way to balance the Beast within with maintaining their Integrity and let's pretend that's not Vampire, and figure out how to survive in a hostile world run by people who hate them except poo poo, that's Werewolf with the Pure and Promethean with everybody. The thing is, it being an imposition from outside would also make the whole 'script flipping' theme work. You wake up and realize 'Why am I doing what's expected of me? Why am I fulfilling these stereotypes? Why do I give speeches when the Hero comes to my lair? What the hell did I do with my life before this happened?' and then explore how you became a Beast, why these people are trying to kill you, why you do what you do, how you can balance it. A game about slowly realizing you've been brainwashed, used to be someone else, and now have the choice to embrace what's happened to you and enjoy your time as a grand, scenary-chewing monstrosity or struggle to get back what was taken from you (or whatever other path you'd like to follow) would be fine.
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Jun 8, 2015 15:25
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I think the only way you could really work the punishment angle safely is if they're a criminal judge. They're the one handing down the punishment. But that's the only thing I can think of. I like some of the mechanical ideas. The lairs, the nightmares, they seem like some cool ideas. But its attached to this cancerous husk of a fluff setting. It just leaves me feeling a little sick.
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Jun 8, 2015 15:28
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Roland Jones posted:, and since RPG.net bans people if they respond to mods I cannot object, I've been completely shut down for something I didn't even say. While there's room for a joke there that accusing someone of writing Beast is apparently a grievous insult, the whole affair has left me rather disgusted. You can send complaints to the admins at admin.rpgnet@gmail.com.
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Jun 8, 2015 15:33
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As I continue to flip through my Promethean collection, I continue being amazed at how much better of a game it is than Beast. I mean, thanks to the Refinement of Argentum, it's even better at crossovers than the "Crossover Splat".
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Jun 8, 2015 15:42
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Arashiofordo3 posted:I think the only way you could really work the punishment angle safely is if they're a criminal judge. They're the one handing down the punishment. But that's the only thing I can think of. I like some of the mechanical ideas. The lairs, the nightmares, they seem like some cool ideas. But its attached to this cancerous husk of a fluff setting. It just leaves me feeling a little sick. Really most of Beast's problems come from two sources:
Making the Heroes the ones that make Beasts who they are rather than the other way round fixes #2, but #1 still needs a solution. I'm thinking Hungers just flat-out need to be rewritten (or rephrased) such that it's less about abusive behaviour - while still of course being terrible things to do. e: Actually, you could go deep into the crossover thing by making the hungers reflections of the other splats: Vampires give you a taste for domination, mages get you curiosity, werewolves get you predation, changelings get you... stories? and prometheans get you humanity. It'd want to be written well enough that their feeding is unhealthy for all involved but on the surface looks like the beast is helping the other splat out. Flavivirus fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 15:46
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Darren MacLennan posted:You can send complaints to the admins at admin.rpgnet@gmail.com. Dude, why are you ratting me out? You know what happened to Serpico. Wait, what did happen to Serpico? [Reads Wikipedia.] Holy poo poo, forget I said anything.
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Jun 8, 2015 15:55
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As awful as the book's writing and all the fluff for Beast is, I am still unbelievably outraged at the mechanics. The "crossover friendly" splat is better than every splat at everything every splat is supposed to be good at. If you're a Beast in a Vampire game, you're a better social predator than them, as well as being a human being with no downsides and good at a bunch of other stuff. If you're in a werewolf game, you're the best hunter in the pack - as well as being a human with no downsides and good at a bunch of other stuff. If you're in a Mage game, you're better at solving occult mysteries than them as well as being a human being with no downsides and good at a bunch of other stuff. gently caress's sake Onyx Path. I can't use any of this! I can't play Beasts in other games! I can't allow Beasts in other games I run! What is this!?
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Jun 8, 2015 15:59
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I felt I had to give this joke more exposure:Attorney at Funk posted:beast the primordial is what you'd get if you tried to reconstruct the empire strikes back from its constituent wookieepedia entries
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Jun 8, 2015 16:14
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Doodmons posted:As awful as the book's writing and all the fluff for Beast is, I am still unbelievably outraged at the mechanics. The "crossover friendly" splat is better than every splat at everything every splat is supposed to be good at. If you're a Beast in a Vampire game, you're a better social predator than them, as well as being a human being with no downsides and good at a bunch of other stuff. If you're in a werewolf game, you're the best hunter in the pack - as well as being a human with no downsides and good at a bunch of other stuff. If you're in a Mage game, you're better at solving occult mysteries than them as well as being a human being with no downsides and good at a bunch of other stuff. On 4chan, DaveB said some of his fellow developers believe balance is a myth. That's probably one of the worst thing that can be said about a game designer, really.
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Jun 8, 2015 16:15
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MonsieurChoc posted:On 4chan, DaveB said some of his fellow developers believe balance is a myth. This is the absolute most oWoD game since the oWoD.
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Jun 8, 2015 16:16
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MonsieurChoc posted:On 4chan, DaveB said some of his fellow developers believe balance is a myth. They've definitely loaded every splat down with rhetorically explosive win buttons in order to ensure that this is true. I still cringe at the thought that Lair rules are supposed to debunk the idea of fight outcomes being analyzable, but, hell, at least the Mage setting material looks great.
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Jun 8, 2015 16:29
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DJ Dizzy posted:As a mind/matter mage in a group of 3 vampires, how do I avoid blowing past the others in everything, yet while still remaining a unique asset to the team? Alternatively how do I gently caress with them the most? Ward, and its follows-you-as-you-move cousin Repel, using your Matter 3 to block all* physical matter. Do Scrying as well as you can. You're a human being that can walk in the sun and isn't afraid of a lit match. Alter physical matter from a safe distance. *depending on your Matter arcana level Night10194 posted:This is the absolute most oWoD game since the oWoD. As someone else said, Beast is the worst nWoD book they have released since Changing Breeds back in 2007.
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Jun 8, 2015 16:34
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Gerund posted:Ward, and its follows-you-as-you-move cousin Repel, using your Matter 3 to block all* physical matter. Do Scrying as well as you can. You're a human being that can walk in the sun and isn't afraid of a lit match. Alter physical matter from a safe distance. 5 matter, 5 mind. Its a fairly highpowered game.
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Jun 8, 2015 16:37
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Ferrinus posted:They've definitely loaded every splat down with rhetorically explosive win buttons in order to ensure that this is true. Yeah, 2E's idea of balance appears to be "Jack everything up to 11 and hope it evens out." It's not working.
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Jun 8, 2015 16:37
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Hey, Changing Breeds wasn't bad. It was just... niche.
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Jun 8, 2015 16:42
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MonsieurChoc posted:On 4chan, DaveB said some of his fellow developers believe balance is a myth. Maybe they meant that it's so hard to attain (especially with lines as divergent as the WoD's) it might as well be mythical? I can certainly see that, but only because each line has its own thing.
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Jun 8, 2015 16:43
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I don't think that they need to be balanced in direct combat, as long as PVP isn't going to be your average everyday thing. Particularly since a Demon going loud is basically "Combat's over, I win. Let's move on cause I need to go get a new cover now."
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Jun 8, 2015 16:54
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MonsieurChoc posted:On 4chan, DaveB said some of his fellow developers believe balance is a myth. I've been very disappointed in the mechanical attitudes of the World of Darkness development team, lately. They seem to hold that their rules can be vague, because it's the duty of the ST and the table to interpret the rules as they please. It manifests in big and small ways; one of the more egregious cases I've seen was the dev guidelines they released for nChangeling 2e, which said to not focus on the edge cases of powers, because that can be handled by ST fiat. To which a friend of mine noted: "But edge cases are when I need to check the book to see what happens!". One particular developer statement that really made me roll my eyes was in one of the OPP AMA threads on Reddit, where a player came with a mechanical question: Let's call him Bob posted:This is a bit of a technical rules question. To which a developer responded with: quote:Generally, the setting of a fight won't allow people to back up indefinitely — this is one of the reasons white-room is not a useful combat environment. Use the environment against them, describe how you're getting in the shooter's face with a knife and his back's against the chain-link fence, the dumpster's to one side and he's pretty much cornered. Which I feel misses the point - this is a good way to avoid the problem if you're fighting in an enclosed space (such as, ironically, a featureless white room), but doesn't actually solve the problem that Bob had with melee fighters being kited. If the fight had been in an abandoned parking lot, or the New Mexico desert, or any number of large locations that do allow back up for long enough to kill the melee fighter, the OPP developer's advice would be useless. Mechanical problems like that are best solved with mechanical solutions, in my opinion, etc. CommissarMega posted:Maybe they meant that it's so hard to attain (especially with lines as divergent as the WoD's) it might as well be mythical? I can certainly see that, but only because each line has its own thing. Matthew McFarland's own words on the matter, so you can judge for yourself what he means. LatwPIAT fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 16:55
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Teah, I've gonr from super-excited about the Second Edition of the nWoD to kind of disappointed. While there quite a few changes Zi liked, it seems there's also a lot of new problems that they added by just not thinking through the consequences. Lots of unnecessary changes too. I really don't like the new Coils, for instance. Edit: sorry for the typos, phoneposting.
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Jun 8, 2015 17:04
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LatwPIAT posted:Matthew McFarland's own words on the matter, so you can judge for yourself what he means. This reads like a laundry list of excuses for doing lovely mechanical work.
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Jun 8, 2015 17:07
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Night10194 posted:This is the absolute most oWoD game since the oWoD. Whoah whoah whoah. This mess right here is a whole other kettle of fish than even the worst of the oWoD, with the exception of Doktor Hitlerina the Tzimisce and, like, a tiny bit of Changeling and Werewolf content. It had its racism and taste issues but it never went into straight up abuse apologia as the core theme of a game line.
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Jun 8, 2015 17:11
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"This faction should be sympathetic, and this faction should not be." - Is there any other splat or antagonist where the book gets in between the playgroup and says this directly? It's one thing to portray a group as sympathetic or not in the writing, but I can't remember any case of the devs tapping me on the shoulder and saying, "Uh, you're doing it wrong." It's especially annoying because, yeah, balance does seem like a 'myth' to some of the developers when looking at certain abilities / powers that come rolling out, and the general response to balance criticism seems to be, "You're a responsible gaming adult. Balance should occur at your table in a healthy fashion. We give you a toolbox, and we expect you to use some of the tools, discard others, and modify the rest." I dislike that concept, since if you ever do public, pickup or convention games, a good game balance helps cut down a lot of noise / strife. But now suddenly we're getting hard-coded on the relationship we should have with Heroes/Beasts as players? It's like the theme is, "Hey - Joseph Campbell, the guy who wrote the Hero's Journey? Yeah? Well, gently caress that guy. We're gonna write a better story, it's called Beast." Except that Campbell didn't write the Journey story, he teased out a common thread in heroic stories and myths that seems to resonate across virtually every culture. As if you could subvert that narrative by tacking on some random bits of "Actually, see, the heroes aren't people. They are the real beasts with no agency and only instincts to hunt/kill." And not actually address how the beasts/chaos aspect in the Journey is also subverted. Subverting what the Hero is doesn't actually add sympathy somewhere else. Finally: Corporations are manufacturing a product which causes cancer in people living close the factory. Corporation A has no idea that they are causing cancer. (Hero) Corporation B understands the link, and so moves the factory to a war torn region where only assholes will get cancer (Beast 1) Corporation C understands the link, and doesn't give a poo poo. (Beast 2) Who on earth says Corp A is the worst most unsympathetic of the bunch? Even getting away from the "who had a choice in being created" issue and only focusing on their choices now, a person who understands they are causing harm and refuses to stop is less moral than the person causing the same harm and not knowing it.
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Jun 8, 2015 17:15
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Edge cases and polish are what you loving pay for when you buy a drat rulebook! The majority of the time I spent houseruling Mage for my game didn't go to thinking up cool spell ideas, that comes naturally. The timr went to... edge cases. What if someone does this? Don't the rules just incentivize never doing that? Doesn't that other thing create a perverse result in this particular niche situation? Like, re: melee vs. ranged in nWoD: obviously, the correct ruljng is that if you're in arm's reach of your target at any point in your turn - you start next to them, you run past them, whatever - they're able to reach out and interfere with you at least to the extent that they get their Defense, or you suffer the gun Size penalty or whatever. In my rules I made it explicit that a character's assumed to end their turn and stay wherever their main action put them, which may well include "in your face and following you around". But it's the writer's job to actually SAY that, as clearly and tightly as they can, because the ST shouldn't be worrying about adjudicating it fairly mid-game if the book can possiby help it.
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Jun 8, 2015 17:15
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Loomer posted:Whoah whoah whoah. This mess right here is a whole other kettle of fish than even the worst of the oWoD, with the exception of Doktor Hitlerina the Tzimisce and, like, a tiny bit of Changeling and Werewolf content. It had its racism and taste issues but it never went into straight up abuse apologia as the core theme of a game line. I more meant the 'balance is a myth' thing and the whole 'this is basically Sam Haight: The Pooching' crossover approach.
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Jun 8, 2015 17:15
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If we’re talking about “game balance” in a game wholly in control by the game designer, then why, as a game purchaser, should I be taking a designer who calls it a myth seriously?
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Jun 8, 2015 17:15
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There's also the fact that balance isn't about 'white room combat performance', though that's an element of it. It's about making sure players can't easily accidentally create a character who either dominates the entire narrative (because his greater power gives him greater narrative agency/much more stuff to do) or finds themselves with nothing fun to do during the game. It's about making sure a variety of concepts don't need to actively gimp themselves or minmax to be able to have fun playing the goddamn game and have ways to meaningfully interact with the rules to influence the story, because why else would you bother having rules?
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Jun 8, 2015 17:19
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LatwPIAT posted:Matthew McFarland's own words on the matter, so you can judge for yourself what he means. I get the feeling people's (including devs) various mechanical issues basically come down to the old storygames vs tradgames argument and the fact that NWOD (particularly 2E) is something of a hybrid of the two. Like most of the stuff he's saying makes sense if you're looking at the game like you would look at say Fate or Apocalypse World. Obviously NWOD is way more mechanics heavy than either of them but I feel like he's trying to argue for pushing it in that direction. Edit: It's still drowning in snark though.
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Jun 8, 2015 17:19
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LatwPIAT posted:Matthew McFarland's own words on the matter, so you can judge for yourself what he means. Look at this smug, lazy garbage. I just- I can't. I can't even, literally. This isn't story games vs D&D or whatever. It's just not doing work. The idea that two characters' hypothetical relative power in ANY arena can't be judged intelligibly and so can't be used to inform design is, like, obscene. The fact that A can kick B's rear end, or that C is smarter than D, or whatever - that's hugely important to determining how scenes and conflicts play out, even if the dice are never rolled.
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Jun 8, 2015 17:24
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DJ Dizzy posted:5 matter, 5 mind. Its a fairly highpowered game. A double-rank master is not concerned with the day-to-day affairs of a triad of vampires. Cap your power output via extraneous bullshit like "you cannot have a paradox ever or other mages will kill you" and "is distrusted and sabatogued as a mage by an even more powerful Consilium for palling around with vampires" and even "the vast majority of vampires count as sleepers".
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Jun 8, 2015 17:24
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Luminous Obscurity posted:I get the feeling people's (including devs) various mechanical issues basically come down to the old storygames vs tradgames argument and the fact that NWOD (particularly 2E) is something of a hybrid of the two. Like most of the stuff he's saying makes sense if you're looking at the game like you would look at say Fate or Apocalypse World. Obviously NWOD is way more mechanics heavy than either of them but I feel like he's trying to argue for pushing it in that direction. On the official Apocalypse World forums, the last time I looked, the consensus was that, apart from joke playbooks, the Touchstone was the most powerful playbook and pretty unbalanced. This analysis wasn't focused on PvP or white-room combat, either. Balance is always a concern in games, even in the most rules-light ones. The idea that there is a fundamental difference when it comes to "storygames" is a pernicious meme.
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Jun 8, 2015 17:31
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MonsieurChoc posted:On 4chan, DaveB said some of his fellow developers believe balance is a myth. In his defense, Dave later stated he meant between-splat balance, not in-splat balance. Vampires and werewolves aren't going to be consistently designed with one another in mind, so why bother?
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Jun 8, 2015 17:33
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Pernicious memes are the very worst kind.Axelgear posted:In his defense, Dave later stated he meant between-splat balance, not in-splat balance. Vampires and werewolves aren't going to be consistently designed with one another in mind, so why bother? Because it's more fun, whether you have multiple PC types together or not, for them to be balanced. It makes the setting better.
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Jun 8, 2015 17:34
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Axelgear posted:In his defense, Dave later stated he meant between-splat balance, not in-splat balance. Vampires and werewolves aren't going to be consistently designed with one another in mind, so why bother? Ok, but this falls apart when making a crossover splat that walks all over the other games' schticks.
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Jun 8, 2015 17:41
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LatwPIAT posted:Matthew McFarland's own words on the matter, so you can judge for yourself what he means. This is embarrassing to read in two or three different ways. Good lord.
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Jun 8, 2015 17:42
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quote:
Somebody hired this person to make a game?
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Jun 8, 2015 17:50
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Prior to Beast I basically thought of Matt M as, basically, "those know it all Mages need to be taken down a peg" prime as far as WoD writers were concerned, but this... this...
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Jun 8, 2015 17:54
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