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Xealot posted:On this specific point, I never got why people saw Stannis' previous burnings as justified just because R'hollor seems to "work" or be "real." In Lovecraft stories, Cthulhu is a god who objectively exists; it doesn't mean it's necessarily in your interest to worship him. See I always saw the seven as Middle Ages Catholicism. It's polytheistic but monotheistic at the same time (the holy trinity, but they're all faces of the one god). The weirwood trees religion is sort of like old northern European paganism, kind of like the druids meets norse mythology. The Drowned God is sort of similar to Norse mythology but the focus is more on the sea, it's more of a viking god. The Red God is more like Islam, it's a new faith rising in opposition to the faith of the seven and a much more devoutly monotheistic movement. Since it's a relatively new religion, there's more of an emphasis on prophets spreading the faith by force. Gianthogweed fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 21:43
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Justin Credible posted:Oh here, in a single shot and a single line I can fix most of what was wrong with how this was portrayed. Most of us don't have to have everything spoonfed to us and can just infer things and fill in the blanks ourselves. 'Cause we're not dumb.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:43
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The Duggler posted:Jamie has been boring since he split with brienne/his talks with tyrion in the dungeon. He is way less interesting as a Cersei slave I agree and his development with Brienne was genuinely interesting as it seemed like he was trying to regain some sense of honor and grow as a person. I thought they were gonna make him grow distant from Cersei and become less of a slave. But then he rapes her on his dead son's corpse and becomes her slave again so he can have a wacky road trip with Bronne. I really had hopes for Jaime and I feel like they really shat his development down the drain this season and last
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Jun 8, 2015 21:46
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Kopijeger posted:- Stannis had gone to the trouble of getting custom-made map markers with the Boltons' flayed man on them. Nah, Robb also had lion's head map markers for his war. When you declare yourself king, you just go out and buy a ready made set of map markers with 4pcs from each noble house in Westeros for easy convenient war planning.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:47
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They sell them at the cock store as a loss leader.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:48
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Kopijeger posted:- Jaime and Bronn got off scot-free for killing that patrol? Nobody even mentioned it since they were captured. The friendly conversation at the end seemed to suggest the blame lying with Ellaria for sending the threat in the first place. The vibe you get is that Doran sees Jamie's actions as being reasonable given the threatening message they received and he more or less opts to give everyone the chance to take a mulligan on it. Doran, above all else, does not want to go to war over stupid petty poo poo like this; he was pretty clear at the beginning of the season that you can't really blame anyone for Oberyn's death, since he volunteered to participate in a fight to the death, he wasn't betrayed or unfairly overpowered and is perhaps the only "good guy" character for whom this is the case.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:50
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paperchaseguy posted:I was trying to go to sleep a few minutes ago and for some reason the enormity of these events finally hit me and I couldn't stop crying. I have no real life friends who give a poo poo about Westeros, so this is basically the only place I have to express these feelings, but I really feel the need to express them. Goddamnit I know I've read this somewhere before.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:50
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Gianthogweed posted:See I always saw the seven as Middle Ages Catholicism. It's polytheistic but monotheistic at the same time (the holy trinity, but they're all faces of the one god). The weirwood trees religion is sort of like old northern European paganism, kind of like the druids meets norse mythology. The Drowned God is sort of similar to Norse mythology but the focus is more on the sea, it's more of a viking god. The Red God is more like Islam, it's a new faith rising in opposition to the faith of the seven and a much more devoutly monotheistic movement. Since it's a relatively new religion, there's more of an emphasis on prophets spreading the faith by force.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:52
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Anyone on guard duty last night was either incompetent or working with the Boltons. Find out which. Then hang them. Never change, Stannis.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:52
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Possibly Chicken posted:Goddamnit I know I've read this somewhere before. It's about Chris Benoit murdering his wife and son. Can we stop being confused about it now?
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Jun 8, 2015 21:52
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a cop posted:The people who manage the ASOIAF website and (I think?) helped write that ASOIAF lore book are currently melting down about D&D spoiling bookreaders & calling everyone idiots nonstop. Ahahaha that's a thing of beauty.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:52
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Elephanthead posted:They sell them at the cock store as a loss leader.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:54
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univbee posted:The friendly conversation at the end seemed to suggest the blame lying with Ellaria for sending the threat in the first place. The vibe you get is that Doran sees Jamie's actions as being reasonable given the threatening message they received and he more or less opts to give everyone the chance to take a mulligan on it. Doran, above all else, does not want to go to war over stupid petty poo poo like this; he was pretty clear at the beginning of the season that you can't really blame anyone for Oberyn's death, since he volunteered to participate in a fight to the death, he wasn't betrayed or unfairly overpowered and is perhaps the only "good guy" character for whom this is the case. Yeah. Jaimie didn't want to start a war, Doran doesn't want to start a war, Ellaria does, but she got threatened and shamed. I'd like to breathe easy and think that this was a potential powder keg that got diffused with some frank and honest communication between the aggrieved.... But this is Game of Thrones, dog. I think the Dorne storyline is going to go from "sorted" to "hosed" in next episode. Sand Snakes still looked pissed and I don't trust Ellaria.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:54
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ALFbrot posted:It's about Chris Benoit murdering his wife and son. Can we stop being confused about it now? He was framed by Kevin Sullivan
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Jun 8, 2015 21:57
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Having sex: spell that produces a shadow assassin Leeches: spell that dubiously kills enemies Burning a child: spell that... ? This Lord of Light fellow has some odd logistics to his magic.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:58
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Sten Freak posted:OK. Melisandre has: -Drank poison that killed someone within seconds and was fine -Given birth to a shadow baby that was intelligent enough to assassinate the right person -Apparently allowed Stannis to also see visions in fire -Burned leeches that has had a 2/3 success rate on having Kings die. -Withstand freezing temperatures wearing a thin dress in weather cold enough that everyone else has to wear huge heavy furs. And the only other priest/ess of her religion literally brought someone back from the dead, multiple times. Say what you will about her, she and her religion are legit.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:59
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Doctor Reynolds posted:Having sex: spell that produces a shadow assassin I'm hoping for a flaming megazord.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:59
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Disinterested posted:This is entirely wrong. He has a concept of right, but that concept of right is tied and allied entirely to getting what is his. He perceives himself to be lawful king, and he won't stop at anything to enforce that. That is both an obligation and a form of selfishness bound up inextricably one with the other. If we are to believe he was morally self-sacrificing and bound by obligations the entire character of Melissandre would make no sense in the context of Stannis. She offers him passion and liveliness that escapes him in his life and his marriage. But she also offers a religious destiny that she declares rightfully his to claim, just like kingship. Obligation and selfishness are bound up with eachother, that's what makes them compelling. This makes sense in some ways and not others to me. Stannis never seems like he actually buys into the stuff she's saying, and sees it more of a means to an end if it works. There is conflict within of course, noble and honor versus practically and expediency. I don't think it's a matter of being morally self-sacrificing but he clearly has a sense of duty that is a driving force behind the majority of his life. It's hard to imagine such a character would be completely pulled to the other side(Mel's of passion, prophecy, etc), more that he would make compromises that would nudge him towards the middle between the two extremes. He's adaptable; despite the defeats he regroups and pushes forwards. I get the impression that if he feels he didn't win the throne himself it would all be for naught. What investment did Stannis have to put in for events like Renly's murder or the false kings' deaths? It was all 'do this thing without real risk to reap unearned rewards'. It's really hard to reconcile the disparity in my mind. With the previous burnings and such, it's clear there is a -reason- it's happening to those people, from Stannis's POV. Family members not giving up the Seven, King Beyond The Wall not bowing, etc. If he's just going to turn into a cartoon villain than I guess the stuff with Shireen works, it just seems to be a waste. Away all Goats posted:Melisandre has: So we're to believe Stannis believes that it happened because of a couple leeches and not multiple plots by other aggrieved parties with their own interests, with these plans in motion well before he threw some blood on a brazier? He doesn't come across like that type to me. Justin Credible fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 22:02
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Doctor Reynolds posted:Having sex: spell that produces a shadow assassin From the Ep 10 preview, at the bare minimum it appears to be a spell that temporarily reverses/stops winter from coming. That's not bad considering they're about as far north as you can be without hopping the wall.
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Jun 8, 2015 22:02
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I will admit I am a little bothered by the incompetence of the unsullied. They could have made the ambush of Grey Worm's crew much more realistic if they had gotten into a phalanx, and one of the Harpys threw Greek fire or some sort of explosive at them to cause their phalanx to fail. At least that to me is more believable then them breaking ranks just to try to kill a bunch of unarmored douchebags with daggers. And I was also seriously bothered by 12 people being surrounded by 100 Harpys and the Harpys only go in a couple at a time like loving Putties from Power Rangers. The Unsullied went from holy poo poo massive gently caress masterful army to total poo poo Stormtroopers so quickly, it's just loving amazing.
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Jun 8, 2015 22:04
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sweet spoilers brah
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Jun 8, 2015 22:04
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Sydin posted:From the Ep 10 preview, at the bare minimum it appears to be a spell that temporarily reverses/stops winter from coming. That's not bad considering they're about as far north as you can be without hopping the wall. I can still loving hear them. 
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Jun 8, 2015 22:05
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GORDON posted:Yeah. Jaimie didn't want to start a war, Doran doesn't want to start a war, Ellaria does, but she got threatened and shamed. I'd like to breathe easy and think that this was a potential powder keg that got diffused with some frank and honest communication between the aggrieved.... Ellaria is the loving worst because she was loving there. She knows Oberyn died to his own stupidity, and as his long time lover (one of those Sand snakes is her daughter, right?), she should have some idea that murdering innocents wasn't really Oberyn's thing. It's one thing for his dumb daughters who don't know what happened to want revenge and maybe idealize him as warrior or whatever, Ellaria's just being insufferable. StopHangingDjs posted:I agree and his development with Brienne was genuinely interesting as it seemed like he was trying to regain some sense of honor and grow as a person. I thought they were gonna make him grow distant from Cersei and become less of a slave. But then he rapes her on his dead son's corpse and becomes her slave again so he can have a wacky road trip with Bronne. I really had hopes for Jaime and I feel like they really shat his development down the drain this season and last Jaime's whole loving thing is that he wants to be noble and good but Cersei is his loving drug and dealer all in one. His redemption will likely only truly come when he kills her (and himself) Kopijeger posted:Some things I haven't seen mentioned yet: Drama / reusing assets TurboFlamingChicken posted:I will admit I am a little bothered by the incompetence of the unsullied. They could have made the ambush of Grey Worm's crew much more realistic if they had gotten into a phalanx, and one of the Harpys threw Greek fire or some sort of explosive at them to cause their phalanx to fail. At least that to me is more believable then them breaking ranks just to try to kill a bunch of unarmored douchebags with daggers. And I was also seriously bothered by 12 people being surrounded by 100 Harpys and the Harpys only go in a couple at a time like loving Putties from Power Rangers. The Unsullied went from holy poo poo massive gently caress masterful army to total poo poo Stormtroopers so quickly, it's just loving amazing. The Unsullied didn't seem overly incompetent this time (they sure did when Selmy died). They were standing guarded, scattered, and there was massive chaos. Once they actually got into a defensive position (which is how they're trained to fight), they were completely outfighting the Sons (even though the sons had huge numbers and probably would've won). They're still failing to live up to this though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1S7IPj1qCE Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 22:06
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tooterfish posted:Not worth the screams. For the screams to be worth it, the sacrifice would have to summon a huge meteor strike on Ramsay and Roose.
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Jun 8, 2015 22:07
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I dunno you guys. I'm a little sceptical about this whole "magic" thing. I mean come on it's 2015 are we really supposed to believe this poo poo?
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Jun 8, 2015 22:07
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Justin Credible posted:This makes sense in some ways and not others to me. Stannis never seems like he actually buys into the stuff she's saying, and sees it more of a means to an end if it works. There is conflict within of course, noble and honor versus practically and expediency. I don't think it's a matter of being morally self-sacrificing but he clearly has a sense of duty that is a driving force behind the majority of his life. It's hard to imagine such a character would be completely pulled to the other side(Mel's of passion, prophecy, etc), more that he would make compromises that would nudge him towards the middle between the two extremes. He's adaptable; despite the defeats he regroups and pushes forwards. I get the impression that if he feels he didn't win the throne himself it would all be for naught. You're making the mistake of not realising that people warp their sense of duty, without even realising it themselves, to serve their interests. That force, in a nutshell, is the best way I could try to explain medieval morality to someone who thinks it's all zealotry or all selfishness in a nutshell. But to be clear: if Stannis doesn't believe Melissandre, that makes his acts way more immoral. I agree that he is portrayed as sceptical, but he has decided to gamble everything on her being right because her interests are folded in with his. His latest choices are choices increasingly of necessity, but they demonstrate ruthlessness. Plus, he's shown his willingness to discard people emotionally close to them when they conflict with his agenda more consistently than he has demonstrated any other character trait. And of course, this bad behaviour is a spiralling cycle, because power corrupts, as does each, new, ruthless act. The fact he agonises over ruthlessly pursuing his interests has given you the impression that he has not been selfish from day one and apparently made you blind to the fact that the agonising always ends with him picking the choice he thinks is good for him. Disinterested fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 22:08
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StopHangingDjs posted:Well there are moments such as when I'm watching Jaime Lannister gently caress around Dorne, try and steal his princess sister, fail with literally nobody caring and I think to myself "what is the point of this" Some people have pointed out how this shows Doran's mindset and sets up what'll porbably be a big intra-Dorne conflict. I was thinking it might be where Jamie finally has the light go on in his head that Cersei's a goddamned idiot filled with bad ideas and he should probably stop doing what she wants.
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Jun 8, 2015 22:15
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Neptr posted:Guy sacrifices his daughter for the good of the realm and you guys think he's evil? Wtf, she even said she wanted to help. He became a zombie, so it's cool.
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Jun 8, 2015 22:15
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a cop posted:The people who manage the ASOIAF website and (I think?) helped write that ASOIAF lore book are currently melting down about D&D spoiling bookreaders & calling everyone idiots nonstop. Holy poo poo they're so loving awful. And so wrong. It's called Inside the Episode, why the gently caress wouldn't they tell you why they made the choices they made in the episode?
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Jun 8, 2015 22:16
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Away all Goats posted:Melisandre has: It will be interesting to see what the sacrifice will do for them. Stannis paid the fee she asked, a steep one, let's see what is delivered.
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Jun 8, 2015 22:19
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TurboFlamingChicken posted:The Unsullied went from holy poo poo massive gently caress masterful army to total poo poo Stormtroopers so quickly, it's just loving amazing. They were talked up as being unstoppable superwarriors by a perpetually-lying dude who wanted to sell them, their combat effectiveness has always been due to them being an unbreakable spear unit when deployed on a battlefield and Dario explicitly said a few episodes ago that they're no use for city stuff cause they're fearless and kinda dumb.
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Jun 8, 2015 22:20
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Sten Freak posted:Yes I specifically meant we don't know if she can do and see everything she claims. She claimed victory at king's landing if she were present but she wasn't there. She also has blown smoke up Stannis' rear end that he will be king or sees him as king (don't recall exact conversation but i'm sure some sperg can quote it). I think this is the big point to me. She can do stuff but whether implied or literal, she has completely sold Stannis that he is the man for the throne as foretold by her fire and powers. The question probably won't be 'is she legit about her powers', it will be 'is she actually acting in Stannis' interest'. Her whole character is a kind of witch from Macbeth/Lady Macbeth hybrid.
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Jun 8, 2015 22:21
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 Episode was bad, especially on the heels of the previous episode, which was all hits. The fuckin Dorne segment was the best part of this episode.
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Jun 8, 2015 22:22
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Ramsay feels like someones edgelord self-insert at this point. Heh, sorry about the food stores kid. Nothing personel
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Jun 8, 2015 22:22
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Disinterested posted:The question probably won't be 'is she legit about her powers', it will be 'is she actually acting in Stannis' interest'. Her whole character is a kind of witch from Macbeth/Lady Macbeth hybrid. I think she does believe Stannis is the chosen one, and is acting to his benefit. Of course, the real question is, does she know that she's serving the devil, or is she also being duped?
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Jun 8, 2015 22:23
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Georgia Peach posted:Ahahaha that's a thing of beauty. They've totally lost it.
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Jun 8, 2015 22:25
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Disinterested posted:The question probably won't be 'is she legit about her powers', it will be 'is she actually acting in Stannis' interest'. Her whole character is a kind of witch from Macbeth/Lady Macbeth hybrid. E: Now I want to read what she's actually promised Stannis because it probably will be a twisted version of the statement, if the vision is correct.
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Jun 8, 2015 22:26
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Sydin posted:From the Ep 10 preview, at the bare minimum it appears to be a spell that temporarily reverses/stops winter from coming. That's not bad considering they're about as far north as you can be without hopping the wall. To keep the lovely Dark Souls references going, they sat down at the bonfire and reset the level.
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Jun 8, 2015 22:28
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Dear George, Please stop writing the books. gently caress those people. Just... gently caress 'em Edit: the best part is that probably tons of people don't watch inside the episode, so these lovelies in fact spoiled this poo poo for countless fans
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Jun 8, 2015 22:31
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Disinterested posted:You're making the mistake of not realising that people warp their sense of duty, without even realising it themselves, to serve their interests. That force, in a nutshell, is the best way I could try to explain medieval morality to someone who thinks it's all zealotry or all selfishness in a nutshell. Different interpretations of what we've been shown doesn't make someone unable to see what's obvious to you; I do appreciate you making salient points though. There is some issues with the line of reasoning that he is just doing what he thinks is good for him personally. Let's take Davos. He let Gendry go well AFTER the Blackwater defeat, after Mel and Stan B. discuss that it was allll Davos's fault they didn't win and so on. He doesn't have Davos executed for treason - in fact after all that he listens to the counsel to go north of the wall. Which he still does even after having enough money from the Iron Bank and being in an area thick with mercenary companies. These two things together make his quest for the Iron Throne from laughably ridiculous with his current situation to actually plausible. The Tyrells have already demonstrated they will shift allegiances to whatever side looks poised to win as will many of the houses. Lannisters are almost universally disliked if not outright hated. He knows all these aspects of the situation from his dedication to be King. I can't see him going to the Wall, spending troops, money, supplies and everything else if he truly just has a lust to be on the throne at all costs. I mean, he has to know he won't even be able to make it down to King's Landing with winter imminent/here if he lands that far north and goes that far inland. How many medieval rulers/barons had their second-in-command men who were constantly contradicting, challenging, and even outright treasonous at multiple times(trying to stab Mel, Gendry)? It is helpful and appropriate to try and shift perspectives back to a feudal mentality when looking at the characters, but I think Stannis has been shown to be atypical when viewed through that lens. He tries to do what he thinks is 'right', which many times is going to be self-serving but he's also shown to go against that mold. It makes him and interesting character, but the beat of him making the choice to burn his daughter seems off-tempo for a lot of us. I can see the other perspective, I just don't think it fits and was more done for shock value than a natural progression of the character at this point in time.
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Jun 8, 2015 22:31
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