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I really want to play Geist, but a better Geist with a more developed setting and a reworked power set.
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Jun 9, 2015 01:44
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spectralent posted:how would you guys rate nWoD splats, in terms of mono-splat enjoyment/interest/fun/whatever your heuristic for "good game" is? Mage is next for me because  WIZARDS  . It's second because it's really loving hard to find a good ST for. Choice paralysis with spells is a bitch and a half. The end game for mages is kind of nebulous, and after a while the game can devolve into "I scry the plot. I cast another spell at the plot. I win the plot. Oh, magic doesn't solve this plot? Bullshit; I use spells to find out what the answer is and use magic to abscond with it, then solve the plot."After that I'd put vampire. It's a solid game and I like it but it always feels like the end game is "I'm bored with this, let's play something else" and being hardlocked into a bloodline always chafed me a little bit. Especially the "you can never ever ever get another bloodline's fun poo poo! Not even if you eat their soul, where all their other disciplines are!" part. Then I guess werewolf/promethean go here because they just hold absolutely no interest to me. I like them as antagonists & NPCs for other games because the shadow/qashmallim stuff is a gold mine filled with arkenstones. Geist is after that because I'm not a fan of any game where you can back into an infinite combo at chargen, and the fluff is boring. Next is being forced to be Steve-O's stunt double for a new Jackass movie. After that is Beast.
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Jun 9, 2015 01:46
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I would put Demon at the top. It's super fun, it's amazing, I love running it. Below that, Hunter and Changeling. I love reading about 'em but I am less good at running Changeling and rarely get a chance to not be GM. Then Mage, because I GMed Mage for a year and a half. It used to be up top but Mage Armor and constant resonance scanning took their toll on me. Werewolf's about on par - I think 2e Werewolf looks real cool but haven't had a chance to use it yet. Vampire and Promethean are on a level for me, but I would say Promethean is the better game. It's just difficult for me to run or make characters for. Blue book stuff like skinchangers and blood bathers and poo poo are fun to read about and use but I wouldn't run or play it. Geist and Mummy aren't games I like. Geist is directionless and mechanically poor and confusing. Mummy is too oWoD for my tastes and fucks around with TNs. Beast is Beast.
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Jun 9, 2015 01:51
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spectralent posted:So true. Changeling is rad (did I mention changeling?) because it's got so many different things weaving together; mage is great because it's got just that one spark of curiosity that means you've got a billion activities to do with it. Really, I tried to make an orderly list, but I realized that a ton of it boils down for me to how good the line is being run and represented by the ST and the players. If you want to get a back-of-the-book statement from me about each line: Vampire: It's easy to think it's boring or middle of the road because it's where a lot of WoD thinking starts, conceptually. Then you remember all the weird poo poo in the wings, and how straight up political machinations are both not the only option and can still be really fun. Werewolf: My former complaint was that everything about the line owned except the protagonists and their mechanics having the impact of wet cardboard and being constantly overshadowed by how incredible the antagonist lineup is. In 2e, the antagonist lineup still owns, the fluff is better, and the mechanics are certainly more impactful, if decidedly more uneven. Mage: Its ability to instantly spark passionate debate about drat near anything in it is a sign that it has its fingers on the pulse of what it wants to do, even if a lot of its mechanical design is getting pretty old in hindsight and it absolutely requires its supplements. Capable of being one of the best games you'll ever play, or one of the worst, depending on the group. Changeling: If you demanded me to pick a single favorite RPG at gunpoint it'd likely be Changeling: the Lost. Its intended experience is loving perfectly realized in so many ways. There's speedbumps, hiccups, and questionable choices, but Changeling is like lightning in a bottle. Promethean: The Best Game You Will Never Play. Please don't gently caress up 2e. Hunter: At once one of the most solid lines tonally, and most schizophrenic. The power/scope/playability/interest is all over the loving place by design, but when it's running on all cylinders, it's an experience no other line can give you. Some of the absolute best ideas in the World of Darkness are in here, as well as a lot of the most mediocre and a few of the dumbest. Geist: There is such a good game in there, buried under all the aimless fluff and under-baked mechanics. If you love it, you probably love it it in spite of what it is right now. Mummy: Like Geist, I like what I do of Mummy in spite of itself. The Nameless One going on pulp adventures and beating the poo poo out of Conan villains in a quest of self-discovery is certainly something a lot of other games can't do. The later splatbooks helped carve its niche out for me - it's not a perfect game, but it's an interesting one. Demon: If I didn't pick Changeling as my favorite RPG ever made, Demon would be next, with a few other non-OPP products in the running. It slam dunks its intended experience about as well as Changeling, but it has more mechanical gripes to it when you really start to look at it closely. That's more or less looking the gift horse in the mouth, though. Beast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSNeL0QYfqo. The only nice things I can say at this point are that its mechanics are novel and worth at least a look-over, its absolute core conceits could have been turned into a very interesting game, and I will be impressed, grateful, and be willing to give it a clean shot if they actually incorporate the criticism it's received in a notable manner.
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Jun 9, 2015 02:23
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Pope Guilty posted:I really want to play Geist, but a better Geist with a more developed setting and a reworked power set.
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Jun 9, 2015 02:24
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I noticed OPP isn't showing us the Monday meeting notes this week. Maybe that's good?
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Jun 9, 2015 02:32
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I'm nervous about a world where Mage is governed by "how lethal is this thing IRL" as opposed to, "It does X damage, done." Like as an ST I don't to get into a fight with the Moros or the Obrimos every time they want to use Forces or Matter to do literally anything. Or like if I'm supposed to know how much damage a given toxin does or arbitrate how much force titanium can absorb how far does that rabbit hole go? I always thought that one saving grace of nMage was that no, you're not really doing science at the atomic level, you're manipulating platonic ideals of how science should actually work, which means I don't have to know any physics. You can't use Forces to change different kinds of atoms into new substances, for instance, even though that ought to be possible with the level of control Forces affords you. This, to say nothing of the fact that Forces and Matter are disproportionately good compared to Spirit or Fate, since the latter don't exist and can't be Googled IRL.
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Jun 9, 2015 02:33
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Mendrian posted:This, to say nothing of the fact that Forces and Matter are disproportionately good compared to Spirit or Fate, since the latter don't exist and can't be Googled IRL. Yeah, assuming you're not abusing the everlasting gently caress of the free ticket Fate gives you to derail plots and dictate your success. I'd say that you're also forgetting about Paradox, but well, Paradox is nothing but an elaborate system negated by the ability to take it as a magic nosebleed, soooo....
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Jun 9, 2015 02:35
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moths posted:I noticed OPP isn't showing us the Monday meeting notes this week. Maybe that's good? Did they say that? Because they usually drop around 10pm EST.
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Jun 9, 2015 02:37
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Changeling is my top game. I love Changeling. I would play Changeling in any setting given and am happy to run Changeling games myself. Werewolf and Mage are heavily dependant on who the ST/HST is before I'd commit to it, but both have good games somewhere in them if you kitbash the right ruleset & setting pairing together. Ironically, I would say that they both work best as a 20-100 player LARP than on the tabletop. I don't know enough about Demon as I've not had a chance to play it or read it on the toilet. But it seems like a tight tabletop experience with the right group. Promethean and Mummy are a games that I'd have to be convinced to play. I'm not convinced that there is a group game in there. Hunter and Vampire goes here. I can never understand what scale they work best in and neither do the people writing or running it. Geist and Beast need work.
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Jun 9, 2015 02:43
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Mendrian posted:I'm nervous about a world where Mage is governed by "how lethal is this thing IRL" as opposed to, "It does X damage, done." I'm not sure how so many people seem to be under the impression that the former is how the game is supposed to be run instead of a weird houserule-y end run around engaging with the system as laid out in the books.
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Jun 9, 2015 02:49
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Luminous Obscurity posted:Did they say that? Because they usually drop around 10pm EST. Do they? I usually notice them in the morning, but maybe it's Tuesday mornings and I'm confused.
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Jun 9, 2015 02:53
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If you're going to make a game where your PCs are supposed to be evil-but-not-really and their antagonists are bumbling dicks you need to have it be a somewhat comedic game and they need to have some good reason for being evil-but-not-really. It's fine in a comedic game when the villainous monster cackles as he flips all the good guy's circuit breakers while he is watching the Super Bowl, but it's extremely incongrous in a Serious Game Where I'm the Embodiment of Fear. like maybe they have to do little lovely evil acts to keep their Beast soul happy enough that it doesn't get loose and start tearing up the world. basically what i am saying is that the only way to fix Beast is to make it Better Angels
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Jun 9, 2015 02:53
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Ranking nWoD: Vampire is the best by approximately one thousand miles. The reason why is because it's an absolute rock-solid easy sell to anyone, anywhere, who has ever heard of a vampire. Vampires are really cool. And you also immediately imagine how terrible it would be to be one. There are a small, clear number of character choices. It has the shortest path from "let's play this game" to "I guess I sink my teeth into her neck". With the Atrocity mechanics in Danse Macabre it is mind-bendingly good. I think one reason I don't have such a problem with Beast is because I am already completely up for playing abusive shits in a bad situation, since I play and really like Vampire. (Yes, I get the differences.) Next is probably Hunter/Blue Book. The number of cool campaigns that came out in various blue books is pretty neat; I keep wanting to do the Asylum campaign with actual psychiatrists, nurses and doctors trying to help their patients. Werewolf is next, the only reason it's not higher is because the spirit-cop stuff is hard to explain to people and harder still to get across the feel of it. The mechanics are solid and the location-creation system is ahead of its time and definitely keeps the milieu grounded and real. Changeling ties it; although it's a really amazing concept and the characters are all characters I immediately want to play, there are so fuckin' many mechanics to keep track of and it doesn't really add anything to the game. Mummy and Promethean are here because they're so self-contained and focused. They'd be higher but there's a fuckton of stuff to understand before you start playing. Demon is here too; like Changeling, the concept is amazing, the mechanics are very complicated. Who wants to come up with a full fledged Descent before we start playing? I just wanted to have a silenced gun and sunglasses and shoot a clockwork angel whose punch cards are falling out. Mage is next, it's fine, a really good game. Geist is really interesting but it went in a weird direction. I actually don't care that much about the Underworld or any of the White Wolf alternate dimensions; the best horror is when you can't possibly ever escape (this is why the Umbra in oWoD was so boring.) I don't think the mechanical glitches are that hard to fix up. Tied with Beast, which has the opposite problem. The concept doesn't seem too hard to fix and the mechanics seem on point.
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Jun 9, 2015 03:38
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There are many, many ways to fix Beast. None of them matter unless McFarland/OPP decide to fix it, except in the sense of people throwing around homebrew setting ideas.
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Jun 9, 2015 03:39
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I'm of the view that all games are homebrews in play, so what "matters" is the opposite to me - it's the customized "fixes" that matter to someone like me. ("Fixes" in quotes because obviously for many people they aren't fixes at all.)
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Jun 9, 2015 03:41
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So what Ciphers have you guys come up with in Demon? I never really got to get that far during the one time I GM'd Demon, so I'm curious as to how others did it.
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Jun 9, 2015 03:43
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spectralent posted:So true. Changeling is rad (did I mention changeling?) because it's got so many different things weaving together; mage is great because it's got just that one spark of curiosity that means you've got a billion activities to do with it. Vampire ranks the top for me. One, it was my gateway drug into WoD. Two, I like the concept of bloodlines, the toolbox nature with things such as Danse Macabre and Requiem Chronicler's Guide. Three, I like the whole gothic tone of old world conspiracies and history resurfacing in modern nights. The covenants have some cool things going for them, like the Invictus' dynasty of torpid elders communicating their thoughts to awake members. Below that would be Mage and Hunter. I like Mage for many reasons people above pointed out, although I am fascinated with the Astral, Shadow, and other realms of existence. Hunter is cool because I like the idea of them both as protagonists and as hostile factions for use in the other monster games. Changeling and Promethean I have not read anywhere near as much as the ones above, but in terms of general ideas they both intrigue me. Demon, Mummy, and Geist I do not have but plan on checking out. Beast doesn't grab me for obvious reasons.
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Jun 9, 2015 04:40
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Meeting notes are up Here's the beast section. quote:First, the Beast Kickstarter did and continues to do, really well. Part of the KS presentation was to provide the almost complete text to the book for folks to read through. This has provided a lot of debate and a lot of excellent points as to certain ambiguities of good/evil, Hero/Beast, and victim/persecutor within the text. Part of that is a needful bit of nuance in a game where you play a member of a “family” of monsters who were the inspirations for such legends as ogres, dragons, and krakens. And part of that ambiguity was because the writers were wrestling with just how to present the material to enable those nuances. Beast takes risks. It tries to turn a few preconceptions on their ears. So if we need to go back into that text to clear up some unintended ambiguities – we will, and we are talking about it. Both today in our meeting and further this week. 
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Jun 9, 2015 04:52
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quote:Some folks have said that there’s no way they can back a game where the PC’s are so monstrous, so evil. Well, I hope everybody who feels that way actually did read the text we provided, because if folks did, and they still feel like that, then I’m glad we put up the text so they could know it’s not to their taste now. Not a few months from now when we send out the backer PDF, or even worse, even more months later when they get their Prestige Editions and are upset at the game they pledged for. Not all games are for all people- and that’s a good thing. "I'm sorry you were offended."
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Jun 9, 2015 04:54
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I'd actually put V:tR and V:tM on the same spot ranked against oWoD ranking. Which would be: Wraith / Great War / Orpheus V:tM / Dark Ages Vampire Werewolf / Dark Ages Werewolf DA Inquisitor Mage / Hunter tie DA Fae Sorcerer's Crusade / Demon the Fallen tie Freak Legion Devil's Due (DA demons) Mummy Sorcerer Mafia Kindred of the East / Dark Continent tie oChangeling ... Gypsy (This is counting it as a game if it had its own character sheet.) I feel weird placing Hunter so high, but the line communicated its weird otherworldly nature better than most. Did I get everything? I'm sure I missed somebody's favorite. E: wow dick gently caress you in your tone hole, Monday boss Notes moths fucked around with this message at 05:09 on Jun 9, 2015 |
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Jun 9, 2015 05:07
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moths posted:Did I get everything? I'm sure I missed somebody's favorite. Werewolf: The Wild West.
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Jun 9, 2015 05:09
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moths posted:I'd actually put V:tR and V:tM on the same spot ranked against oWoD ranking. Which would be: Possessed for W:tA, which was all the types of possession (including vast sections of Freak Legion) but also recommended some cool wraith shadowguide-style playing. I seem to remember one mode of play was everyone playing a weaver spirit and acting by influencing human pawns which was fun as h*ck when we ran it.
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Jun 9, 2015 05:10
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Oops, Wild West should be on the same line as Werewolf. Was Possessed its own thing? I thought it was an exploration of spirits and a WtA splat - I didn't count Kinfolk either and maybe I should have. moths fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Jun 9, 2015 |
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Jun 9, 2015 05:10
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moths posted:Oops, Wild West should be on the same line as Werewolf. It was basically Freak Legion + new sections for wyld / weaver / gaian equivalents.
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Jun 9, 2015 05:16
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Jonas Albrecht posted:Werewolf: The Wild West. Werewolf the Wyld West was the best out of oWerewolf. Lots of cool plot hooks there. Too bad we never got that book on the supernatural lawmen that got two paragraphs in the main books, or the Canada book.
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Jun 9, 2015 05:17
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I think I have Possessed in a box somewhere and now I really want to find it. E: and ugh, someone told me Wyld West was awful years ago and now I feel dumb for believing them.
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Jun 9, 2015 05:20
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moths posted:I think I have Possessed in a box somewhere and now I really want to find it. Possessed is really good.
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Jun 9, 2015 05:20
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moths posted:I think I have Possessed in a box somewhere and now I really want to find it. It is very old White Wolf. Cool gonzo Old White Wolf, but Old White Wolf nonetheless. So if you don't like that, you won't like it. Still it's way better than some of the other werewolf stuff about race, with everyone fighting for territory, including displaced natives fighting between themselves. It's also got some cool antagonists with the Storm Eater and Enlightened Society of the Weeping Moon.
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Jun 9, 2015 05:24
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Kurieg posted:Meeting notes are up gently caress Onyx Path. I have limited amounts of money to spend on things for fun, and this is a pretty good reason to spend none of it on anything involved with them.
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Jun 9, 2015 05:25
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MonsieurChoc posted:Werewolf the Wyld West was the best out of oWerewolf. Lots of cool plot hooks there. Too bad we never got that book on the supernatural lawmen that got two paragraphs in the main books, or the Canada book. It's my all time favorite RPG. I wish they'd revisit the idea for Forsaken, because the Weird West is perfect for W:tF's themes.
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Jun 9, 2015 05:26
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Who called them pointing at the Kickstarter as the defense? I don't care that Beasts run the gamut from petty annoyances to full blown psychopaths. I don't care that they've got a Special Snowflake place as the king shits of monsters. I don't even care that Heroes are the dumbest thing. It's the loving tone- it's this designation of protagonists and antagonists that is so alien to the rest of the World of Darkness, good taste, and common decency.
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Jun 9, 2015 05:26
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Jonas Albrecht posted:It's my all time favorite RPG. I wish they'd revisit the idea for Forsaken, because the Weird West is perfect for W:tF's themes. Isaiah Morningkill is one of my favorite NPCs, despite the fact there's almsot nothing on him. Or maybe because there's nothing on him.
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Jun 9, 2015 05:29
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Kurieg posted:Meeting notes are up "To everyone out there, don't listen to well-defended and learned critiques until you read it to find the really complex stuff like the child abuser, the child abuser, the child abuser, and the child abuser!"
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Jun 9, 2015 05:30
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Man I didn't think people would have such a visceral reaction to those meeting notes. My read of it was: * We're revisiting the text to clear some stuff up, because you're right, it isn't clear. * Here's an image. Tell us what you think it depicts. * We're glad people had a chance to form an opinion on Beast before it was released, because you have a chance to withdraw your support. I mean yeah there's PR in there, but what were people looking for? A complete rewrite? "It died on its way back to its home planet?"
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Jun 9, 2015 05:32
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MonsieurChoc posted:Isaiah Morningkill is one of my favorite NPCs, despite the fact there's almsot nothing on him. Or maybe because there's nothing on him. Well he was the original silver fang who isn't an rear end in a top hat and realized how much of a fuckup his tribe had been. Pity it took 3 generations of children for it to take again. I love Albrecht's characterization in W20 so much Gerund posted:"To everyone out there, don't listen to well-defended and learned critiques until you read it to find the really complex stuff like the child abuser, the child abuser, the child abuser, and the child abuser!" The thing that annoys me is that he talks about how there's a great difference between the "obviously villainous" beasts and the ones meant for PCs, when there isn't. They're all put in giant blocks next to each other. Like, I guess you can assume you aren't supposed to play the beast that runs people over with his car. but your character creation example is a woman who poisons a teenager and tortures him before teleporting his bedroom to a realm of infinite nightmares. I don't *care* if they're bad people, that's disproportionate retribution on a massive scale.
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Jun 9, 2015 05:36
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Mendrian posted:Man I didn't think people would have such a visceral reaction to those meeting notes. "I'm sorry that our lack of clarity made some of you upset, as that was never our intention." That's it. That one sentence. It's the difference between "we didn't mean it, but obviously we hosed up somehow, so we're sorry," and "sorry you got mad but it wasn't our fault."
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Jun 9, 2015 05:36
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quote:First, the Beast Kickstarter did and continues to do, really well. SCOREBOARD
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Jun 9, 2015 05:37
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Mendrian posted:Man I didn't think people would have such a visceral reaction to those meeting notes. As people have said, it's basically "we're sorry you were offended". They have no intention of admitting actual fault or even pretending to consider that they may have done something wrong.
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Jun 9, 2015 05:41
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quote:At the least, you’ll see that there is an intended difference between the other Beasts out there and the PCs, and that the PCs can choose to revel in the potential for what we humans would call evil, or choose to mitigate those acts and curb the excesses. Is the fiery Beast in the art above punishing an awful person, threatening an innocent, or is this a depiction of something more complex? You decide. Done and done, and who gives the smallest piece of turdly poo poo about the art right now No but seriously, who throws out an unironic "You decide." in the 2015th Year of Our Lord Crion fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Jun 9, 2015 |
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Jun 9, 2015 05:46
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