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John Oliver tackled the bail system last night, arguing for more pretrial services and release for people who can't afford to pay exorbitant bail amounts.
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Jun 8, 2015 23:27
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Lately I've been seeing conservatives clinging to the "it was a taser, not a gun!" lie with regards to the pool incident. They've also been sourcing anonymous social media posts which are juuust scrolled up enough to where you can't see the profile that wrote it to confirm if they actually "live in the McKinney area". The post I saw also provides justifications like "the kids were yelling racial slurs at locals"  They might change their tune if they actually thought about the implication that yelling racial slurs deserves a gun\knee to the back, though..
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Jun 8, 2015 23:29
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Jarmak posted:
Not in my experence. They're pretty 50/50 though the defense may appear to want more continuances because DAs have a bad habit of dropping late discovery (say, the video of the incident) on the eve of trial.
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Jun 8, 2015 23:46
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Jarmak posted:Good argument, since the system already has failures that put innocent people in jail who gives a gently caress, lets just put more innocent people in jail. On a similar token why should we care if someone gets murdered by the cops, I mean its not like they'd be the only one right? Good job totally misreading my point that it would be nice if everyone was afforded the "maybe we shouldn't put innocent people in jail" attitude that our justice system is clearly lacking instead of just the types of killers that the right wing identifies with. When people that defend skittish cops killing unarmed people and over zealous police actions suddenly start crying about unfair imprisonment when our system is currently a nightmare where you have to play a warped game of "should I just take this punishment even though I know I'm innocent because I'll probably go to jail longer if I don't," get hosed by criminal prosecutors like in Orange County, people stuck in a perpetual system of fines like St Louis where not paying a bullshit ticket you can't afford just makes it worse, or just harassed in general and sometimes killed by police for simply being the wrong color and making white people nervous it comes off extremely hollow that there's one specific type of person where it's just too far. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 23:50
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PostNouveau posted:John Oliver tackled the bail system last night, arguing for more pretrial services and release for people who can't afford to pay exorbitant bail amounts. drat, and he couldn't even have known how timely that turned out to be 
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Jun 9, 2015 00:42
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Cichlid the Loach posted:drat, and he couldn't even have known how timely that turned out to be Maybe someone in this thread is well-versed in the history of the legal system. Is the bail system just some artifact of a time when someone could just completely disappear if you let them out awaiting trial? It's always been weird to me that there's a whole "You can just buy your way out if you've got the money," thing.
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Jun 9, 2015 01:04
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This case had nothing to do with exorbitant bail, he was denied bail after the indictment because he was on probation.
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Jun 9, 2015 01:50
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Jarmak posted:This case had nothing to do with exorbitant bail, he was denied bail after the indictment because he was on probation. I'm not talking about that case; I'm talking about the John Oliver segment I posted earlier.
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Jun 9, 2015 02:28
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Jarmak posted:This case had nothing to do with exorbitant bail, he was denied bail after the indictment because he was on probation. But he was initially kept in custody because he couldn't make bail, prior to the indictment. Just wanted to make that clear.
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Jun 9, 2015 03:51
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Bullfrog posted:Lately I've been seeing conservatives clinging to the "it was a taser, not a gun!" lie with regards to the pool incident. This kind of poo poo always happens, and it's always the most obnoxious bullshit. "Well they were yelling racial slurs! They had prior convictions or arrests! They were being rude!" NONE of that deserves a gun pointed at you! If your prior conviction was not a violent arrest, you have no reason to assume they're violent! And if it IS, and you found out AFTER the fact, you still don't get to justify pointing a gun at someone. I just get so fed up with the justification after the fact. I don't care if the girl you kneed in the back was secretly a NeoNazi plotting to resurrect Adolf Hitler as a Lich. You can't retroactively justify excessive force like that.
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Jun 9, 2015 03:55
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http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/09/us/cleveland-leaders-bypass-prosecutors-to-seek-charge-in-tamir-rice-case.html This is interesting. In Ohio anyone with "knowledge of the facts" can go straight to a judge and file an affidavit requesting an arrest, bypassing police and prosecutors. If the arrest is approved, it's followed by a public hearing rather than a closed grand jury. A group of Cleveland community leaders are planning to do this tomorrow to request the arrest of the officers who killed Tamir Rice. (I mean, who actually thinks at this point that the prosecutor is going to do anything?) This is an interesting provision for getting around cops and prosecutors protecting their own. I wonder if it could bear any fruit in other states. But I also wonder who is actually supposed to prosecute the case at trial who won't definitely just tank it, or, at best, half-rear end it.
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Jun 9, 2015 04:41
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Monaghan posted:does america have any sort of credit for pre trial custody? In Canada you get 1.5:1 credit for the amount of time you spent in jail in pre-trial custody. It also provides incentive for prosecutor's to hurry the gently caress up on their cases. It isn't really an incentive, it's recognizing basic fairness in sentencing. For Provincial "jail" sentences (less than 2 years) you're earning remission while serving your sentence, which works out to a day for every two days served. Most people earn full remission unless they're a complete shithead while in custody. For Federal "prison" sentences (2 years or more) you have parole, and statutory release. It's even harder to lose your statutory release. So because you don't start serving your sentence until you've actually been sentenced (other than some offences with life sentences when considering parole eligibility) the 1.5 credit is giving you the same credit you would probably have got had there been no delay in sentencing. For "prison" sentences you actually have the potential to be released on parole even sooner than 2/3, so delay can have more of a negative impact on the prisoner. Zarkov Cortez fucked around with this message at 06:24 on Jun 9, 2015 |
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Jun 9, 2015 06:20
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Lemming posted:Don't worry, the situation is a lot more depressing: Do you have a source for this that is not a well-known propaganda organ of the Russian government?
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Jun 9, 2015 08:08
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-Troika- posted:Do you have a source for this that is not a well-known propaganda organ of the Russian government? http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/02/18/a-plague-of-professional-courtesy/ Thanks for prompting me to find a better source! This one shows it's even worse: quote:But that isn’t the end of the story. The Florida Highway Patrol then investigated Watts for her handling of the incident. The agency cleared her of any wrongdoing, but it took two months. It’s hard to believe a cop who arrested a regular citizen for driving 120 mph, and who then initially refused to pull over, would be subjected to a similar investigation.
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Jun 9, 2015 09:27
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Bullfrog posted:Lately I've been seeing conservatives clinging to the "it was a taser, not a gun!" lie with regards to the pool incident. From the rawstory article it sounds like all the kids were locals and guests of the woman hosting the party and the racist white people were the ones that showed up and started trouble. Is there a source that is actually reporting it the other way around, the impression I'm getting is people believe that innocent white people were just minding their own business and a flash mob of minorities ran in and started punching everyone. I'm guessing it's just racists making up stories in their heads which then become reality once the facts are all muddied, as in FoxNews pundits just offhandedly saying they don't understand why police arresting troublemakers is so offensive. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 12:55 on Jun 9, 2015 |
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Jun 9, 2015 12:26
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Lemming posted:http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/02/18/a-plague-of-professional-courtesy/ How are cops allowed to be this incompetent and spiteful? They'd purposely allow a dangerous situation to get out of hand just because of a grudge?
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Jun 9, 2015 13:50
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Haha, hoo boy. Let's just say, yes, yes they absolutely would. This surprises you?
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Jun 9, 2015 14:09
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FourLeaf posted:How are cops allowed to be this incompetent and spiteful? They'd purposely allow a dangerous situation to get out of hand just because of a grudge? Once upon a time there was a large county in California. In this large county, there was a sheriff's department. In that large county, that department handled local police duties for many cities. In that county, there was also CHP officers who patrolled the freeways sropping speeders and such. There has always been a devide between CHP and local offices because CHP is generally better educated, equiped, and paid while the deputies think CHP officers do no real police work. A classic class conflict. For years in this county things simmered under the surface until someone, deputy or CHP, no one really knows, dared give a ticket to another. And so it decended to the point where the departments would pull over each other's marked vehicles for minor equipment violations and write summons. On one fine day a CHP officer saw the sheriff's jail bus on the freeway and something was amiss. He pulled over that bus. Come on board said the deputy driving, so the CHiPpie did. And the deputy let out a laugh, and said "now you're under arrest for entering the county jail bus when armed." Guns were drawn, handcuffs brought out, and supervisors were awakened from thier slumber to go to the county jail bus. A truce was called and an uneasy peace broke out that continues to this day. But lurking under the surface the feud continues and no one know what will light it off again. Yay, Victorville!
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Jun 9, 2015 16:04
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Supertroopers is a documentary.
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Jun 9, 2015 16:05
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http://gothamist.com/2015/06/09/scarcella_again.phpquote:Shabaka Shakur, 50, was convicted in 1989 of killing two men in Bushwick, and sentenced to two consecutive terms of 20 years to life. Shakur's case was handled by Louis Scarcella, a now-retired detective responsible for at least 50 murder convictions currently being probed by Brooklyn District Attorney Ken Thompson. Eight convictions have been overturned and a number of prisoners have been released thanks to that probe, including one man who served an 18 year prison sentence; one who served 23 years in prison; and three half brothers who were convicted of homicide charges in the 1980s. Unfortunately, Shakur's charges have not been cleared yet, and the case is not scheduled to be retried. As for being imprisoned, what is the normal, acceptable amount of time to await a trial? Also, do you guys feel it is acceptable to imprison people awaiting trial in the very same prison they would be sent to should they be convicted?
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Jun 9, 2015 16:13
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Radish posted:Supertroopers is a documentary. quote:This took place Feb. 5th, 2004. I can't find the video that was recorded by the media when this was happening live, but I remember watching and CHP and Sheriff's Deputies actually pulled guns on each other, but it was removed from the late night news recap.
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Jun 9, 2015 16:18
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Grey Fox posted:Pretty much. Here's a local news report regarding a similar incident where the sheriff's department and highway patrol get into a pissing contest over jurisdiction, backing up a freeway for miles. In an odd reverse of this, I had an issue where two police departments kept trying to defer jurisdiction to the other. There are signs along the interstates that more or less say "See a drunk driver? Call the State Patrol", so when I spotted a dangerously drunk driver, I called the State Patrol. Twenty minutes later, I had been transferred without comment (as in, "I'm sorry, that's not our jurisdiction, I'll transfer you *click") from the State to the county, back to the State, and back to the county, at which point the guy had managed to pull off the interstate and I lost sight of him. The State Patrol has jurisdiction throughout the state, especially on the interstates. How the gently caress can they have decided that they needed to bounce me to the county because they "didn't have jurisdiction" to stop a pickup truck moving at erratic speed, swerving across multiple lanes, and that nearly clipped a guardrail? On top of that, how did they decide that it was somehow not worth responding to when I passed one of their interceptors while on the call?  EDIT: Not even the strangest or worst issue I've had with cops changing their mind on jurisdiction. The police in my city (not to be confused with the police in my county, or the county sheriff) won't deal with any issues regarding illegally parked cars inside of residential areas, claiming that they don't have jurisdiction to do so without a petition from a majority of homeowners. This apparently extends to things like cars blocking all entrance and exit to the neighborhood, cars parked in residents' driveways without permission from the homeowners, and cars taking up the entire length of one lane of the main road into a neighborhood. Except when someone gets in a drunk driving accident just outside that neighborhood, in which case they magically have the jurisdiction to ticket or tow every car parked on the street, legally or not, which they "enforced" by patrolling the neighborhood for two days. A week later, everything was back to the status quo, and any complaints about it were met with "we don't handle parking policy issues in neighborhoods". Funny, you had that jurisdiction when you compelled me to stand in the middle of the street for half an hour, lied to my face about not having received any complaints about the fact that the street was inaccessible, and threatened to arrest another neighbor for daring to ask why you were falsely claiming that her car was blocking access to the street. Kugyou no Tenshi fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Jun 9, 2015 |
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Jun 9, 2015 16:35
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Kugyou no Tenshi posted:In an odd reverse of this, I had an issue where two police departments kept trying to defer jurisdiction to the other. There are signs along the interstates that more or less say "See a drunk driver? Call the State Patrol", so when I spotted a dangerously drunk driver, I called the State Patrol. Twenty minutes later, I had been transferred without comment (as in, "I'm sorry, that's not our jurisdiction, I'll transfer you *click") from the State to the county, back to the State, and back to the county, at which point the guy had managed to pull off the interstate and I lost sight of him. The dispatch might not be for either agency, either, depending on your location so it gets even harder to know what's up and who needs to do what.
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Jun 9, 2015 16:39
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ToastyPotato posted:http://gothamist.com/2015/06/09/scarcella_again.php If they have to be held before trial, they should be in a county jail. Well poo poo, Rikers Island is a jail.
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Jun 9, 2015 16:40
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Pohl posted:If they have to be held before trial, they should be in a county jail. Riker's is a JAIL?! So I guess there is no actual physical difference, legally, between a jail and prison? Riker's is MASSIVE and still overpopulated.
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Jun 9, 2015 16:51
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ToastyPotato posted:http://gothamist.com/2015/06/09/scarcella_again.php It depends. I mean the real answer should be zero unless there is a flight risk or bonified public safety issue. If there is such an issue, probably 30d from date of arrest to trial on a misdo. Honestly, you need that much time just to do investigations and the like. If you set the time too short, then we get into time waivers which can increase that time dramatically. For felonies it is much more complex. What I like in CA is that your prelim has to start 10 court days from arraignment. This means that at least within that time a judge makes sure you're in for something that the DA might be able to prove. The prelim process is a bit of a kangaroo court, but we do win those at times. After that, we have a 60d time until trial, which is probably about right, but something like 30-45 might be better, as things like drug sales and DV can be pretty simple. Note that some cases are complex and the defense may need more time. Attorney I worked won a murder case a while ago. Full walk. Took 2.5 years, which sure seems like a long time, but they also had to find witnesses all over the country, get the autopsy re-evaluated, etc. At the time trial started, dude was probably pretty pissed that he'd spent 2.5 years in jail for a legit self-defense case (aryan nation member came on his property looking to kill him, started killing his brother instead). On the other hand, getting a speedy trial, losing and getting life would be worse. As to the 2nd, generally you don't. Outside of post-realignment California, misdos, and probation cases, you generally spend your pre-trial time in jail and post-conviction in prison. Fun fact: most people who've been to both would much rather spend time in prison than jail. Jail is a pretty messed up place because of the constaint flow of people in and out. This creates more problems. Food is better in prison and you can get a TV in your cell, etc. ToastyPotato posted:Riker's is a JAIL?! nm fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Jun 9, 2015 |
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Jun 9, 2015 16:53
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Vahakyla posted:The dispatch might not be for either agency, either, depending on your location so it gets even harder to know what's up and who needs to do what. In the case of both agencies, the dispatch identified themselves as being for that particular agency, though. Like, I called the State Patrol number and got "State Patrol, what is the nature of your report" or whatever, then got transferred to the county with "County Police, what is that nature of your report", transferred back to "State Patrol, blah blah", back to county "County Police blah"...and even if the dispatch weren't for either agency in particular, how hard is it to know that the State Patrol has universal jurisdiction in the State, is the primary responding agency to all reports regarding the interstates, and that there are signs all over the state telling people to call the State Patrol in that exact situation?
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Jun 9, 2015 16:55
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It seems to me the problem in Baltimore is not the police or racism. it's the people: http://thatguysonheroin.com/
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Jun 9, 2015 17:14
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Also of interest
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Jun 9, 2015 17:22
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I love it, they feel so aggrieved. Hopefully the name of their crappy little township becomes a synonym for suburban racism.
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Jun 9, 2015 17:31
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Well, there is a park right next to the pool. I suppose it would be possible for teens to hop the fence. However, it being a public park seems a bit debatable. Not only is it adjacent to an HOA's pool for members only, it is wholly surrounded by multiple blocks of that same HOA. So I think that if some DJ just decided to spring up out of nowhere and set up some party in that park with no sort of permit, that should have been a catalyst to the police breaking it up. We've not seen the actual supposed DJ or the alleged tweets. None of the images I've seen suggested there was even a party at that park. Then again, I haven't really followed it all that much. And just because it happened in your neighborhood doesn't mean you actually know a loving thing about what actually happened. Unless you were actually there. Tamir Rice was shot less than a half mile from me at a park I used to drive past every day to work and I didn't even realize it until a few days after. Doctor Butts fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Jun 9, 2015 |
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Jun 9, 2015 17:50
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Regardless if that is what happened if everyone was white the police response would have been "Shut it down, everybody go home" which does not involve waving guns around or whatever.
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Jun 9, 2015 17:54
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Well, yea, you don't send one cop in a patrol car if there's a supposedly huge party and a bunch of kids are spilling over fences. That should have been the response, but you got mr. combat roll....
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Jun 9, 2015 17:58
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hobbesmaster posted:Regardless if that is what happened if everyone was white the police response would have been "Shut it down, everybody go home" which does not involve waving guns around or whatever. They wouldn't have called the cops on white kids. And 12 cops wouldn't have showed up if they had.
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Jun 9, 2015 17:59
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nm posted:They wouldn't have called the cops on white kids. And 12 cops wouldn't have showed up if they had. Depends. I've called the police on Capitol Hill yuppie staffers. It was 3 am. Midweek. drat kids get off my lawn.
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Jun 9, 2015 18:05
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edit: ^^^^ its you, you're the busybody.  nm posted:They wouldn't have called the cops on white kids. And 12 cops wouldn't have showed up if they had. Some busybody might have still called the cops.
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Jun 9, 2015 18:06
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ActusRhesus posted:Depends. I've called the police on Capitol Hill yuppie staffers. It was 3 am. Midweek. drat kids get off my lawn. I'm with you on this one, I've got an infant and work in the morning. If it's tuesday night at 3am and you're hosting a rave at the community pool next door? I'm calling the cops.
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Jun 9, 2015 18:17
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Good thing it wasn't 3 am. I completely agree with that sentiment, but I'm not sure what 3 am has anything to do with this situation.
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Jun 9, 2015 18:20
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ToastyPotato posted:Riker's is a JAIL?! My little brother actually spent a few months in Riker's when he was a minor. When he was 15 or 16, he stole my car, drove it from Virginia to NC, and then took a train to NYC. I guess he committed a couple of other petty crimes in NYC and ended up getting sent to Riker's for a few months while awaiting trial/preparing for extradition. I was kind of surprised back then that they sent juveniles there, too, but nothing really surprises me anymore when it comes to the justice system here.
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Jun 9, 2015 18:24
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"Late" is really the issue for a lot of folks, and why, as ActusRhesus pointed out, a lot of folks would call the cops regardless of whether they were white, black or what have you. The insane police response in the case in question is of course, because they were black.
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Jun 9, 2015 18:26
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