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My Q-Face posted:I don't think that's right. He seemed to accept it as pretty straightforward. He knows his son volunteered for the trial by combat, which is a sacred religious rite. It's not like anybody forced Oberyn into the ring, nor did anybody step in to interfere with the fight, I don't think he sees what happened as something that needs to be avenged. Oberyn's his brother. Also, Doran is totally scheming something. He tells Ellaria that he doesn't believe in third chances, which could be referring to her, but more likely is referring to the Lannisters. First chance, Elia, second chance, Oberyn. Ellaria then immediately changes her tune towards Jaime, so Doran probably let her in on his more subtle vengeance plan. Granted, like you said, Oberyn wasn't murdered, he was defeated in fair combat, so maybe Trystane's the second chance. But I am pretty sure he blames the Lannisters for Oberyn's death.
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Jun 9, 2015 09:30
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malikjahim posted:That wasn't my point. I knew the Stannis storyline was doomed, and that he wasn't by any stretch a "good" man. He was a character that had an interesting way of going about things - gambling with a religious extremist with demonstrable powers, and maintaining a sort of psychological separation from that religion. That balance was fascinating, something that Stephen Dillane brought out remarkably well. Now, instead of that, his only character trait is child-murderer. You can argue otherwise all you want, but that's all his character will be to most of the audience. I take issue with what seems to me to be a dumbing-down of the script, which, for a show centered around complex political maneuvering, is not a good sign. There's an army of the dead knocking on the door - Melisandre has told him numerous times that he is the only one who can defeat them. Maybe his priorities have changed from "want to keep the Baratheon dynasty rolling" and moved into "want to stop armageddon". People keep forgetting that Stannis knows exactly what is coming, knows exactly what his part in it will be and knows exactly what's at stake. I thought Hardhome would've shown that Stannis isn't doing this for himself anymore, he's doing it for everyone. Stannis knows what's out there - the petty squabbles of men don't mean much to him anymore. The army of the dead won't be beaten by flaying old women or beating up religious ministers in whorehouses. The Lord of Light is real - his magic is real, not the idle fantasy of zealots. Stannis has to have the Lord of Light on his side or the entire world will be frozen in a permanent winter. To defeat the monster you must become a monster.
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Jun 9, 2015 09:30
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My Q-Face posted:I don't think that's right. He seemed to accept it as pretty straightforward. He knows his son volunteered for the trial by combat, which is a sacred religious rite. It's not like anybody forced Oberyn into the ring, nor did anybody step in to interfere with the fight, I don't think he sees what happened as something that needs to be avenged. I think Oberyn was his brother? In any case, I think he is definitely completely genuine when he says he doesn't want to kick off ANOTHER war which will get a bunch of people killed, and it was refreshing to see a ruler who actually doesn't just fly off the handle or leap to conclusions that could be avoided if people just talked to each other - his conversation with Jaime basically defused a potential powder keg AND gave his son(?) a seat on the Small Council which is gonna make him even more influential than just being Myrcella's husband - Dorne is basically coming out of this mess pretty drat strongly.... so long as anything is left of Kings Landing once the Sparrows are done with it, anyway. I do think Ellaria is still intent on revenge despite bowing to Doran though, and her comment to Jaime about knowing who to blame/him not being able to choose who he loves makes me figure that she intends to do something to Cersei.... if there is anything left once the Sparrows are done with her, anyway.
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Jun 9, 2015 09:31
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There was literally no reason for the Dorne plot to exist. None. Zero. Absolutely nothing was accomplished in between Jamie's commando mission and him talking to Doran.
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Jun 9, 2015 09:36
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:There was literally no reason for the Dorne plot to exist. None. Zero. Absolutely nothing was accomplished in between Jamie's commando mission and him talking to Doran. You can't know that! Maybe sometime in season 7 there's a really big important scene and then you realise "Dorne! It was Dorne all along! Doooooooorne!  "
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Jun 9, 2015 09:46
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:There was literally no reason for the Dorne plot to exist. None. Zero. Absolutely nothing was accomplished in between Jamie's commando mission and him talking to Doran. Yeah, there is no reason this was a season arc. It was all grandstanding that was resolved instantly, and resolved quite cleanly. The same amount of plot could've happened in 1 or 2 episodes, and we wouldn't have missed anything...the only relevant bit was introducing Doran and the Dornettes. They obviously have to go somewhere with those characters, though, so that's something. I wouldn't be surprised if Doran's endgame is to take out every Lannister power-holder except Myrcella, who he has perfectly under his thumb, to take de facto control of Casterly Rock and de facto control of the Iron Throne. Kevan seems like a burnout, Cersei has been politically neutered, and Tommen is profoundly vulnerable to anything and everything. All the Lannisters have, in terms of namesake, is a one-handed Kingsguard who refuses to marry or father children. Even Kevan's lineage is centered around a religious fanatic who renounced his name. Doran can afford to be level-headed because he doesn't even have to kill most Lannisters...they're doing a great job of it on their own, and he gets to look clean when it happens.
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Jun 9, 2015 09:58
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Funniest thing is reading this thread for the last two weeks. Last week: "Stannis should burn her, the hypocrit" "Stannis is totally going to burn her" "She's dead" "The only way his bullshit will be honest is if he does it" This week: "I can't believe he loving did it!!!" It's kind of hilarious. Sorry for the slightly off quotes, that's dozens and dozens of pages to dig through.
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Jun 9, 2015 10:03
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malikjahim posted:That wasn't my point. I knew the Stannis storyline was doomed, and that he wasn't by any stretch a "good" man. He was a character that had an interesting way of going about things - gambling with a religious extremist with demonstrable powers, and maintaining a sort of psychological separation from that religion. That balance was fascinating, something that Stephen Dillane brought out remarkably well. Now, instead of that, his only character trait is child-murderer. You can argue otherwise all you want, but that's all his character will be to most of the audience. I take issue with what seems to me to be a dumbing-down of the script, which, for a show centered around complex political maneuvering, is not a good sign. I think people conflate his consuming obsession with the the throne with a desire to defend the Baratheon line/legacy. He's not Tywin. It's not about putting a proper Baratheon on the throne (otherwise, why kill Renly right after offering to make him heir?); it's about what is supposed to be and what is supposed to be is that he is king. He hasn't shown any concern with legacy, or ruling, or any actual kingly poo poo. He is literally obsessed with sitting on that godamn throne. If you actually consider everything he has done, he is likely to be the most terrible ruler Westeros has ever had. He doesn't care. It's not about any of that. He should be king, so he must be king, everything else be damned I get that you think he is forever tarnished by 'child-murderer' and you may be right, but as I said, there are two characters who have been redeemed after killing or attempting to kill children. Xealot posted:Yeah, there is no reason this was a season arc. It was all grandstanding that was resolved instantly, and resolved quite cleanly. The same amount of plot could've happened in 1 or 2 episodes, and we wouldn't have missed anything...the only relevant bit was introducing Doran and the Dornettes. Tywin relied on Kevan to basically be his second in command. He is not a burn out, at all. Cersei ain't even kinda done yet. Doran is both too chill and too smart to be trying to make a power play against the Lannisters. He doesn't know exactly what's happening in King's Landing (certainly he can't know what Cersei's ultimate fate will be), so why take the risk, especially by sending his son over there? The Lannister he and Oberyn had reason to hate is dead. By all accounts, Tommen is harmless to nice, and they actively like Myrcella. Why can't one person on the show just want to chill and make peace? (typing this out, he probably has a plan. Everyone has a plan. Maybe his is a nice quiet plan) Jerusalem posted:In any case, I think he is definitely completely genuine when he says he doesn't want to kick off ANOTHER war which will get a bunch of people killed, and it was refreshing to see a ruler who actually doesn't just fly off the handle or leap to conclusions that could be avoided if people just talked to each other - his conversation with Jaime basically defused a potential powder keg AND gave his son(?) a seat on the Small Council which is gonna make him even more influential than just being Myrcella's husband - Dorne is basically coming out of this mess pretty drat strongly.... Doran owns. But "just being Myrcella's husband" is also likely to make Trystane quite powerful when Tommen bites it. Dornish King! Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 10:35 on Jun 9, 2015 |
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Jun 9, 2015 10:20
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Bobo the Red posted:But "just being Myrcella's husband" is also likely to make Trystane quite powerful when Tommen bites it. Dornish King! Bronn better not try and kiss Myrcella, we've all heard the song! 
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Jun 9, 2015 10:35
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Bobo the Red posted:If you actually consider everything he has done, he is likely to be the most terrible ruler Westeros has ever had. Stannis was the only one to send help for the Night's Watch. Stannis sees the bigger picture.
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Jun 9, 2015 10:36
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Bobo the Red posted:Tywin relied on Kevan to basically be his second in command. He is not a burn out, at all. I guess that's a case of tell and not show for me, the Kevan thing. I remember him from season 1 (?), and his complete absence in affairs since made me think he was kind of a beta. Also, his only other proxy representative was Lancel, who before joining a cult was completely ineffectual. That affected my view, I suppose. Though I think Cersei's increasing irrelevance has been written on the wall for a while. I'm not sure how much of the Faith Militant thing has gotten out of King's Landing, but it seems possible Doran could've heard about it. He certainly heard about Tywin, at least, and that seems like the bigger deal. At this point, I don't ascribe particular decency to anyone on this show until they prove otherwise. It makes way more sense to me that Doran's game is patience and tact, to contrast him with his brother who was all huge gestures and emotion; Elia was Doran's sister, too, and I imagine he still cares. Besides, the show needs new political masterminds. If we're going to continue having King's Landing political intrigue, someone's going to have to drive it.
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Jun 9, 2015 10:50
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Stannis could burn Davos, Sansa, Rickon, Sam, baby Sam, Myrcella, and all the puppies in Winterfell's kennels and he would still be better than Tommen, Joffrey, Robert and Aegon.
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Jun 9, 2015 10:51
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The only good thing about Dorne other than snake tits is Doran. After the death of Tywin and exile of Tyrion its satisfying seeing just a competent person who doesn't burn his own daughter or leave all her friends to die when they're surrounded by enemies.
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Jun 9, 2015 11:10
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I think I like Stannis more than I did before now, assuming he gets a heavenly host and a flaming sword and starts laying waste to his enemies next episode. He won't be a good guy, but he would be a badass and that's about all you can ask for from GoT. It's clearly not out of nowhere that it happened either, he's known for a long time that he will have to end up burning his daughter and whilst he might have been weighing up his options or wanting to believe that he won't do it, I don't think he was ever firmly against it. It's entirely in character for him to do it and, in the context of the show, it was a terrible thing for Stannis to do but not a spectacularly terrible act in the grand scheme of things. Children have been murdered before, including for political reasons, tens of thousands of children are going to die from war and winter and hundreds of thousands are going to die if the White Walkers get across the Wall. Also, magic is real and capable of providing concrete material advantages. For what it's worth I don't think this scene or Sansa's scene were particularly gratuitous, the momentum of the show dictated that they would have to happen and the way the scenes were shot was as close to it happening off-screen as was really possible and emphasised how terrible the things happening were and they were part of important character development moments. Also, I am sad that Shireen died, I would much rather he had burnt e.g. that little poo poo Olly, but terrible things happening to characters you like is par for the course.
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Jun 9, 2015 11:35
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The Dorne stuff wasn't just badly written but it's really bad from a production standpoint too. We've seen streets of Mereen and parts of the cities that Arya and Tyrion have been in, we see people in Winterfell, King's Landing, etc. Dorne just kind of feels like they were offered some very limited use of the Alcazar in Sevilla and they didn't bother to go much further than that. We didn't really get a feel for the actual city or place.
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Jun 9, 2015 11:38
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I still find it hard to believe people jumped on team Stannis because he was a stand up guy. The guys over on /r/Dreadfort have the right idea, you don't back people in this show because they are goodies, you back them because they have the most fun being baddies. I was a big Tywin fan myself, but now he's out of the picture I am leaning towards Littlefinger or Olenna.
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Jun 9, 2015 11:42
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hiddenmovement posted:I still find it hard to believe people jumped on team Stannis because he was a stand up guy. The guys over on /r/Dreadfort have the right idea, you don't back people in this show because they are goodies, you back them because they have the most fun being baddies. So we should have been backing Joffrey for most of the series?
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Jun 9, 2015 11:58
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hiddenmovement posted:I was a big Tywin fan myself, but now he's out of the picture I am leaning towards Littlefinger or Olenna. Olenna is no baddie. She's just the Westeros version of Lucille Bluth. And she loves her gay grandson; that's a nice thing. In general, the Tyrells are pretty chilled out. Westeros could do way worse than Queen Margaery. They probably always have done worse than her really. Renly / Margaery would probably have been the best option. Decent, kind-hearted gay king and his charitable beard wife. Equitable relationship with Robb Stark, king in the North. Would've been nice. That's just the first thing Stannis ruined; gently caress his blood right, this whole situation would've ended in season 2. Robb would be arming the Night's Watch right now.
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Jun 9, 2015 12:05
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Away all Goats posted:So we should have been backing Joffrey for most of the series? Being incompetant isn't fun Xealot posted:Olenna is no baddie. She's just the Westeros version of Lucille Bluth. If you are the Lucille Bluth of anything you aren't exactly sympathetic. But yeah Renly/Margery was easily the best viable choice. Thanks Stannis!
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Jun 9, 2015 12:14
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Away all Goats posted:So we should have been backing Joffrey for most of the series? Hell yeah, do you think Joffrey would have tolerated Jonathan Pryce prancing around in a sack? Lancel and co.'s heads would have been lined up on the Red Keep within the hour. King's Landing would have probably gone into a mega-riot and have gone up in flames when Joffrey starts spamming wildfire barrels at the peasants. Now that would have been fun.
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Jun 9, 2015 12:15
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Lloyd Boner posted:Hell yeah, do you think Joffrey would have tolerated Jonathan Pryce prancing around in a sack? Lancel and co.'s heads would have been lined up on the Red Keep within the hour. King's Landing would have probably gone into a mega-riot and have gone up in flames when Joffrey starts spamming wildfire barrels at the peasants. It is a shame there were not more moments when Joffreys advisors/mommy/Tywin were absent from the capital and Joffrey could go berserk and sniping people in the street from his chambers like that one real life King or Sheik or who he was did. Joffrey was so lovably crazy evil with no thought to consequences, just seeing him start a riot 2 days after his advisors left and getting ripped apart by commoners would have been great, but the end he got did look sufficently horrible at least so I am happy anyways!
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Jun 9, 2015 12:50
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Caligula? Yes it woulda been pretty funny if that level of crazy had happened
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Jun 9, 2015 12:54
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Koboje posted:the end he got did look sufficently horrible at least so I am happy anyways! XMNN fucked around with this message at 12:58 on Jun 9, 2015 |
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Jun 9, 2015 12:55
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Lloyd Boner posted:Oberyn's his brother. At an extreme, it's possible he blames the Lannisters for the stupid bullshit which lead up to the trial by combat. I think Oberyn pretty much knew the entire trial was a goddamn farce, plus remember that the mountain was Tywin's bannerman and it was clear from the very first scene Oberyn is in (he starts a fight with men in a whorehouse because they're singing "The Rains of Castamere") that they want revenge (and remember just before Oberyn's head exploded he was trying to find out from the mountain who gave the order, looking for something to implicate Tywin with). If anything, Doran may just be keeping up appearances, but he may be like Varys and have near-impossible levels of patience for the perfect opportunity for revenge. We never did find out what Varys did with the sorcerer-by-mail, did we? 
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Jun 9, 2015 13:41
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I'm guessing he didn't sit down and have a nice cup of tea with him, unless I'm totally misreading the situation.
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Jun 9, 2015 13:51
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Blazing Ownager posted:Funniest thing is reading this thread for the last two weeks. Those quotes were all Bobo.
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Jun 9, 2015 14:05
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I'm rooting for Ramsay because he's gotten everything he's ever wanted but feels threatened it will be taken from him. His plot now is about keeping it (and also torturing Reek and Sansa). Good luck Ramsay. Also the actor is charismatic as hell.
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Jun 9, 2015 14:10
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Dorne ended up being whatever but I'm pretty sure it was just a way to get Jaime out of King's Landing so poo poo could go south for Cersei. I'm just glad Bronn's not dead and he should be retiring in the southern tropical paradise with the sand snakes, but so it goes.
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Jun 9, 2015 14:24
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Eight-Six posted:Dorne ended up being whatever but I'm pretty sure it was just a way to get Jaime out of King's Landing so poo poo could go south for Cersei. This season's all about sending people on an errand so they didn't get in the way of bad things happening to their loved ones at home, just in Jamie's case it was GRRM's doing instead of an actual storyline character.
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Jun 9, 2015 14:27
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Lloyd Boner posted:Oberyn's his brother. I love this theory. I feel like it is supported by how Ellaria kneeled for forgiveness so quickly, without any explanation, really. She knows better than to test him.
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Jun 9, 2015 14:34
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:I am picturing the "Twenty Good Men" like those units in Rome Total War that just stealth into the map, teleport behind your dudes and start stabbing people in the back until they rout Also like the Commandos from the original Command and Conquer. "I got a present for ya!" (gently caress I hated commandos. 21 of them rushing you? Screw that.) Chonchon posted:But with regards to the whole burning people alive thing, the followers of R'hllor believe that the world they're living in is literally hell, and that there is presumably a better world waiting for them which could be seen as 'life' proper. More like Gnosticism (they believed that the world was created by a lesser, in some cases evil God), though they had a bunch of other beliefs that didn't make it into the show like everyone having a bit of the divine in them but now I'm getting off tangent. Jerusalem posted:In any case, I think he is definitely completely genuine when he says he doesn't want to kick off ANOTHER war which will get a bunch of people killed, and it was refreshing to see a ruler who actually doesn't just fly off the handle or leap to conclusions that could be avoided if people just talked to each other - his conversation with Jaime basically defused a potential powder keg AND gave his son(?) a seat on the Small Council which is gonna make him even more influential than just being Myrcella's husband - Dorne is basically coming out of this mess pretty drat strongly.... so long as anything is left of Kings Landing once the Sparrows are done with it, anyway. Doran may be one of the smarter persons on the show by averting a war and continuing to improve his position. Having his heir on the Small Council is a nice coup, and everyone will be out of town making it more difficult for Ellaria and the T&A gang to do anything. I hope he sticks around, also because Dr. Bashir. Maybe they can find a role for Andrew Robinson to hang out with him 
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Jun 9, 2015 14:35
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EccoRaven posted:
I doubt it, simply because the Faceless God offers succor and final rest to those who wish it, and the Other turns his followers into undead abominations to serve in his army. The idea that there are two opposed gods instead of many more lines right up with the Manichean/Zoroastrian bent of R'hllor, and it makes sense that his two shown servants would propound that line of thinking. However, there are many more 'unknown' forces at work, such as the Faceless God, the Drowned God, or even potentially the Seven, at work.
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Jun 9, 2015 14:41
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Here's a nice interview with Liam Cunningham about the last episode.  No! Don't trust her lies!
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Jun 9, 2015 14:43
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zoux posted:Here's a nice interview with Liam Cunningham about the last episode. quote:But he’s definitely the only one who owes his spot on the show to time spent as an electrician in Zimbabwe. Dear TLC, I would watch the gently caress out of Davos Seaworth: Zimbabwean Electrician. That is all.
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Jun 9, 2015 14:47
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One thing I think we've overlooked is that Dany's costuming this season has been on point.
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Jun 9, 2015 14:50
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zoux posted:One thing I think we've overlooked is that Dany's costuming this season has been on point. I liked her dragon neckthing.
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Jun 9, 2015 14:55
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RBA Starblade posted:I liked her dragon neckthing. It looked uncomfortable though, like it seemed to really dig in.
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Jun 9, 2015 15:10
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Plavski posted:It looked uncomfortable though, like it seemed to really dig in. As regalia goes, probably not that bad.
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Jun 9, 2015 15:12
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:There was literally no reason for the Dorne plot to exist. None. Zero. Absolutely nothing was accomplished in between Jamie's commando mission and him talking to Doran. It was because they had to get jamie out of king's landing for the cersei plot to be plausible, and nicolas coster-waldo's contract probably has some provision about X amount of screen time. also bronn is cool
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Jun 9, 2015 15:40
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Eight-Six posted:Dorne ended up being whatever but I'm pretty sure it was just a way to get Jaime out of King's Landing so poo poo could go south for Cersei. I'm just glad Bronn's not dead and he should be retiring in the southern tropical paradise with the sand snakes, but so it goes. That's true, and I was super happy to see Bronn again. I was sure his last meeting with Tyrion was his exit. Really expected Ellaria to pull a knife and tearfully stab the hell out of Bashir Martell too. I guess it could still happen, though unless she can implicate Jamie there's no relevant consequences to that. Plus that would probably be too trite for this show.
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