|
Error 404 posted:Doingitright.txt  That's very encouraging, thank you. I suppose that latter confusion is more or less my main area with DW I am struggling with; I run into fairly frequently having players wanting to tackle / trip / grab / intercept opponents when they're also trying to damage them or otherwise take them out. Sometimes a Defend move makes sense, but it gets really hazy to me if it is off the cuff on Defy Danger when they're also trying to do harm (and it's rare that most of my adventurers aren't.) In more general quandaries, it's taking me longer than I'd like to acclimate to GM moves on 7-9 results; I try to avoid just defaulting to 'take damage' or 'choose between taking damage or taking a debility' or other variations thereof, but I'm also finding in practice that Hack and Slash resulting in 'They grab hold of you' or the like frequently meets a response of 'Well, I'm going to keep attacking them / trying to stab them / kill them anyways', to paraphrase a bit. I do pitch at hinting at reinforcements or so on where it makes sense, but I've been hitting the other hurdles often enough that it's noticeable to me. It may partly be just player familiarity, since basically everyone I've run DW for so far has been foremost a crunchy D&D player more than anything else, but I also don't want to dismiss that there's very likely better ways and approaches I could use to go about it.
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 21:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 15:12 |
|
|
GaistHeidegger posted:
Much of the rules are slightly open for interpretation, because no one will argue against "what works for you". On the other hand, if you're struggling to find what works and you just want to know how to use the moves, here's how I'd use them were I running. Emphasis on this being me personally. If you feel like you're leaning too hard on defy danger you probably are. Of all the moves to lean too hard on though, you're leaning on the correct one. Defy Danger is the catch all rule. If you don't know what to use because nothing else seems to fit, but you still think a roll is required, Defy Danger is the intended move to default to. If you're leaning "too hard" on it however, it's more likely that you're having them roll more than they need to rather than using the wrong moves. quote:While the two were fighting cultists, another cultist started running to go get more guards. If one of the characters breaks to run after them and stop them, but is also describing harm (e.g. I try to catch him and smash his head into the wall) is this Defy Danger + dex to catch up, is this a roundabout Hack and Slash because you're trying to hurt the guy (leaning more toward defy danger) or what? If the character broke away from actively fighting, defy danger to not get gutted because you turned your back on a fight. If they're not as engaged as the other players, then don't worry about it. If anything, it might be a better idea to have the other player roll the defy danger, since they're suddenly alone in the fight with their bro taking off. They might find that they have to react pretty quickly because the danger just got upped for them. Hack and slash to smash the guy into the wall. Hack and slash handles all physical interaction, from grabbin to smackin. No defy danger is needed because that's what the moves 7-9 is for. For catching up to him, I wouldn't have them roll anything. Is he bogged down by supplies or heavy armor? Is the cultist only wearing light clothes? Maybe he cant catch up and has to find a way to slow down or stop the cultist to catch up. Maybe the cultist is wearing a robe and is slower because he has to avoid tripping? This is an instance where you're telling the story and you describe what the situation is. quote:With only two people, I was also finding a lot of times where they kept pretty plainly distracting opponents for each other, so generally I was just having the other deal damage more or less unchallenged, but it felt a bit hazy still. The golden rule is pretty much "if you don't feel a move is needed, don't use one". This system is incredibly narrative based. Being creative trumps rolling dice 100% of the time. Cheap Shot fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Jun 9, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2015 18:14
|
|
|
Deltasquid posted:I've revisited my Maestro class after a long hiatus and as always I'm looking for feedback as I go along. I've added the Read you like a book and Tampering advanced moves and I'm trying to figure out if they're worded correctly, and if Tampering is too powerful/freeform? Those moves are largely inspired by Rohan Kishibe's abilities (from Jojo, natch). The idea is that the artist can magically "open" a person's face and read the contents like a book, and discovering stuff like their past, personality traits, their thoughts and ideas, etc. With tampering, he can start messing around with the contents of a person's... mind, or soul, I guess? I'm unsure if these would be more interesting if some roll were required. This is a pretty cool class, although there's a bit of redundancy. The Polymath move isn't particularly useful since you can get a new artform with extra bonuses with art of war or what makes it tick, and impressionist background and speed painter are fairly similar. It might be worth upping the damage to d6, at least for when you build a statue in seconds and get it to smash a guy in the face, or get the king's crown to scalp him. There's a surprising amount of versatility in the class, which I like. If you need some new moves, maybe binding spirits and souls into art, Dorian Grey storing of debilities and problems in an artwork, or an upgrade of some of the existing skills.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 00:03
|
|
|
chaos rhames posted:Dorian Grey storing of debilities and problems in an artwork, or an upgrade of some of the existing skills. This needs to happen.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 00:08
|
|
|
My last post sort of got lost on the previous page with no feedback, so I would like to ask again for some feedback on my Master playbook Play a peerless fighter or wise martial artist who hides or limits their full power, and reserves it for use on only those enemies that merit it! Intended to model a slew of master characters from anime and kung-fu films.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 00:39
|
|
|
chaos rhames posted:This is a pretty cool class, although there's a bit of redundancy. The Polymath move isn't particularly useful since you can get a new artform with extra bonuses with art of war or what makes it tick, and impressionist background and speed painter are fairly similar. It might be worth upping the damage to d6, at least for when you build a statue in seconds and get it to smash a guy in the face, or get the king's crown to scalp him. There's a surprising amount of versatility in the class, which I like. Some good catches here. Impressionism felt fairly weak compared to the two other style moves, so combining it with Speedpainter makes sense. I decided to replace Speed Painter with a new Art of War move which ups your damage die to a d8 if you attack via art. I feel this reinforces the idea that the artist should hang back and be more of a support class than a fighter, and makes this advanced move attractive for combat-heavy games. The Dorian Grey idea is good (though I've never read it so I might misunderstand what you mean with it). I'd like to keep Polymath and Uomo universale, though. Both of them reinforce the versatility aspect of the class. Is there any sort of generic bonus that could fit these moves? I whipped up some changes but they might not be particularly well thought out. Updated Maestro. Any ideas for upgrades for existing skills? I'm still wondering how to make Uomo Universale a bit better, and wondering if I should put Heavy Mithril and What Makes it Tick in the 6-10 list, or weaken them. Drop Database posted:My last post sort of got lost on the previous page with no feedback, so I would like to ask again for some feedback on my Master playbook Seems like a fun class, though d6 damage seems a bit low (might be a bit better once you start stacking damage?). You did forget the word "damage" after 1d6 in the Glimpse of Power move. Drunken fool seems a bit lackluster. Taking a debility for a +1 forward on damage isn't really a good deal. Maybe take -1 ongoing to some stats while drunk, and +1 ongoing to others? That way the only trigger needs to be "When you are drunk" and you don't have to work with messy triggers like "in combat" (when does combat start and end in a freeform game, anyway?) You could word it as: "When you get drunk, roll +CON." and let them choose a few bonuses from the list like +1 to a stat, or +1 damage ongoing, and -1 ongoing on some other stat, and have all of this go away when they sober up? I like the idea of dividing enemies between worthy and inferior ones, but recognizing a foe as worthy doesn't seem to influence much. Even worse, if you take fancy footwork and perfect stance, you're actually penalizing yourself. Maybe work out a system where you gain mastery by fighting inferior foes, which you can then spend to deal burst damage to worthy foes? You could do this by rewriting glimpse of power a bit ("When you don't hold back against a worthy foe"?), maybe combine it with some other moves like Knowing is Half the Battle? (Or rather, making the effect of Knowing is Half the Battle some extra options for Glimpse of Power) That way you can get some sort of rhythm/cadence into the class: Inferior foes let you stack mastery, worthy foes let you unleash mastery via Glimpse of Power. A bunch of moves can add or modify the rules and effects of Glimpse of Power. Maybe add some sort of cap to stacked mastery that you can raise with advanced moves? It's already looking like a fun class, though! I'd love to see how you improve it. Deltasquid fucked around with this message at 11:52 on Jun 10, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 11:49
|
|
|
Cheap Shot posted:(Quality feedback) Thanks for all of this as well--steadily getting used to how I like to handle things and it's generally been going pretty well, it's just those occasional 'freeze and ponder' kind of moments that I'm kicking myself over. I think then what I really need to hone in is just how I'm handling non-damage / directly aggressive DM moves, in and out of hack and slash. As mentioned, I'm finding that a lot of them time when I hip to using attacks of 'They grab hold of you / scoop you up into a bear hug / put you into a choke hold / shove you down' and the like, most of my players are still rebounding from the 'What do you do?' with essentially variations of 'Well, I'm just going to keep stabbing / swinging / trying to use my weapon anyway' essentially. I find that I've been letting 7-9 results slip without consequence every now and then, but I'm also having a hard time with presenting hard choices on the fly (less so with the other complications, like hearing reinforcements coming or the like) because players tend to readily take any choice that amounts to 'succeed at what you were after but take some damage / a debility in the process' over any choice that does not get them what they wanted. Choices where an option harms / debilitates another character, depending on the player, also often seem to be immediately picked over alternatives with fair frequency. Speaking of, I don't think I'm getting the circumstances where a player would want to actively hinder another player with the aid / interfere type rolls, but maybe there's more obvious or straightforward answers slipping by me at the moment. Tangentially, who should be rolling for hirelings? Am I correct in drawing that hirelings are performing roll+skill off of their various roles? What are they rolling if it isn't covered by their skills, just a straight roll?
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 21:43
|
|
|
GaistHeidegger posted:Thanks for all of this as well--steadily getting used to how I like to handle things and it's generally been going pretty well, it's just those occasional 'freeze and ponder' kind of moments that I'm kicking myself over. I think then what I really need to hone in is just how I'm handling non-damage / directly aggressive DM moves, in and out of hack and slash. As mentioned, I'm finding that a lot of them time when I hip to using attacks of 'They grab hold of you / scoop you up into a bear hug / put you into a choke hold / shove you down' and the like, most of my players are still rebounding from the 'What do you do?' with essentially variations of 'Well, I'm just going to keep stabbing / swinging / trying to use my weapon anyway' essentially. I believe most hirelings don't roll dice, they have a static number for the benefit they provide. You do roll +loyalty when you try to get them to do something risky/unpleasant, though, and the person who makes them do it is the one who rolls. At least, traditionally that's how hirelings work, I think. As to 7-9 results, if they're always going to pick the choice that gets them the result, then make both choices give them the result, but with different consequences? You take a nasty injury from the enemy, or your weapon stays stuck in their gut.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2015 00:04
|
|
|
Deltasquid posted:You did forget the word "damage" after 1d6 in the Glimpse of Power move. Deltasquid posted:Drunken fool seems a bit lackluster. Taking a debility for a +1 forward on damage isn't really a good deal. Maybe take -1 ongoing to some stats while drunk, and +1 ongoing to others? That way the only trigger needs to be "When you are drunk" and you don't have to work with messy triggers like "in combat" (when does combat start and end in a freeform game, anyway?) You could word it as: "When you get drunk, roll +CON." and let them choose a few bonuses from the list like +1 to a stat, or +1 damage ongoing, and -1 ongoing on some other stat, and have all of this go away when they sober up? Deltasquid posted:I like the idea of dividing enemies between worthy and inferior ones, but recognizing a foe as worthy doesn't seem to influence much. Even worse, if you take fancy footwork and perfect stance, you're actually penalizing yourself. Maybe work out a system where you gain mastery by fighting inferior foes, which you can then spend to deal burst damage to worthy foes? You could do this by rewriting glimpse of power a bit ("When you don't hold back against a worthy foe"?), maybe combine it with some other moves like Knowing is Half the Battle? (Or rather, making the effect of Knowing is Half the Battle some extra options for Glimpse of Power) - Come at me, which is restricted to Inferior enemies - Drunken Fool/Master, which costs 1/2 debilities respectively - I'm not left-handed, which turns a foe Worthy - Behold my true form, which has implications (I should possibly restrict it to Worthy enemies and/or make it require Not left-handed) - Words of Wisdom, which gives the DM open license to gently caress with you  My intention is for the mechanics to force a choice on the player between easy Mastery gain on Inferior enemies, or easy Mastery use on Worthy ones, and hopefully incentivise a very cinematic way of playing, where the player escalates reveals of the Master's power in combat. As you pointed out, though, there isn't quite enough of a reward for fighting Worthy enemies at the moment. Theoretically, a Master can treat all his enemies as Inferior forever, and use the (quite strong) Come at me move, and gain and use Mastery quickly, and be quite effective. Maybe that's okay, though? I'm reluctant to restrict Glimpse of Power to Worthy enemies, but I am considering locking off some of the more powerful advanced moves that modify it to be only usable against Worthy enemies.. I'm also considering the idea of a move which flat-out makes your damage against Worthy enemies 1d10... Thoughts? Deltasquid posted:It's already looking like a fun class, though! I'd love to see how you improve it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2015 01:31
|
|
|
Drop Database posted:This is actually already how the class is supposed to work! It's not stated explicitly, but it's implicit in the mechanics. Here's all the ways to gain Mastery: If I may, the biggest flaw in the Inferior/Worthy dynamic is that the "easy Mastery use on Worthy foes" side of it just isn't there. Knowing Is Half The Battle is literally the only thing you can spend Mastery on that's more efficient against Worthy opponents. Every other move they get that interacts with Worthy just gives them more ways to get more Mastery, which instead just gives them a weird dynamic where you only mark someone as Worthy when you need ways to earn Mastery from them that won't leave you open to an attack. So, here's a suggestion for fixing that. I understand that you don't want to limit Glimpse of Power to only be used against Worthy opponents, since that locks Masters out from spending Mastery to knock a door down with a single strike or leap across rooftops or any number of cool things an old master should be able to do if they felt the need to. How about you make it cost one-for-one against a Worthy foe, two-for-one otherwise? That gives you an incentive to only go all-out against a Worthy foe but still lets you use your true power a bit frivolously if you want to.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2015 02:55
|
|
|
Deltasquid posted:Updated Maestro. Some feedback, in no particular order: - Fingerspitzengefühl doesn't play well with all Virtuoso arts equally. What's the utility of bringing a mathematical formula to life? What's the difference between bringing an invention to life versus simply building it? - The class only uses INT for its stuff. It still uses basic moves to attack, sure, but Fingerspitzengefühl provides a way to be effective without it, so I can potentially play a character who only cares about INT and rolls +3 for almost everything - Fingerspitzengefühl is a fun move name, but everyone who uses the class is going to have to have to give the same explanation and pronunciation key... - Polymath is strange move. Am I reading it right? Do you get a +1 on your second specialty? The player picked it because they want to use it already, it doesn't need an incentive. Also, it creates a slightly bizarre optimisation strategy, where you pick what you want to be the best at last.. - The Pen is Mightier is an awesome idea (and name!) but it shouldn't specify tags, that doesn't make sense for all arts. Work it out with the DM. Let's have people attacking in melee with razor-sharp slide-rules and oversize paint-brush spears and stuff! - Also, it should synergise with Heavy Mithril! If you also have The Pen is Mightier, your artistic tool is your weapon (and possibly the damage die goes up, similar to Art of War) - Muse could use a drawback. What's stopping me from declaring another party member, or, hell, even myself, as my Muse, and trivialising the requirements of Virtuoso forever? - It's unclear how Less is More interacts with Virtuoso. "Exceedingly beautiful place" still your call, or the DMs? Also, If I've taken Muse, what then? - Read you like a Book (and Tampering) only fits well with some Virtuoso choices. Maybe the description shouldn't be in the move, so the player can make one up? - It's unclear whether What Makes it Tick actually gives you that expertise, or only makes it available as a choice - How does impressing someone via Photographic Memory interact with impressing somebody with Maecenas? - Really like Life Imitates Art - Thick hide has an interesting trigger, but is mechanically a bit incongruous (quick, say something bad about my art, so I can survive the next blow). Maybe a move which would let you enhance yourself and/or others, by using Fingerspitzengefühl on them would be better? - Same for Art is Angsty. The move could do something cool, but healing doesn't make a lot of sense for most art/invention Overall, it feels to me like you have two concepts mixed up in this class. One is a Renaissance-man, artist, inventor etc, with a patron, exhaustive knowledge of art. This guy could use some social moves, or a more detailed patron mechanic, stuff like that The other is a magical artist, with fantastical painting abilities, like Relm from FF6. This guy needs more ways to use his abilities and tighter focus to make the moves work. It's ultimately up to you if you want to emphasise one of the aspects at the expense of the other, make them work together better, or split the class into two altogether, but, to me, it feels like there's a bit of concept dissonance in there, and I think this is where it comes from Drop Database fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Jun 11, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2015 03:27
|
|
|
GaistHeidegger posted:They picked The Dashing Hero Dashing Hero is the best playbook. I've kind of been wondering, if one were to assemble a set of playbooks for a DW game for new people (or a hypothetical DW 2nd ed.), what would be the go-to playbooks to use? I know the core classes have aged a bit poorly and I personally would dump any of the Vancian casting classes, but I'm not sure what books I would put together for new players to pick from. I guess the safe bet would probably be just to use Inverse World, as the classes seem pretty balanced with each other and work together thematically while each having fun stuff for players to do.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2015 03:43
|
|
|
Lurks With Wolves posted:If I may, the biggest flaw in the Inferior/Worthy dynamic is that the "easy Mastery use on Worthy foes" side of it just isn't there. Knowing Is Half The Battle is literally the only thing you can spend Mastery on that's more efficient against Worthy opponents. Every other move they get that interacts with Worthy just gives them more ways to get more Mastery, which instead just gives them a weird dynamic where you only mark someone as Worthy when you need ways to earn Mastery from them that won't leave you open to an attack. Lurks With Wolves posted:So, here's a suggestion for fixing that. I understand that you don't want to limit Glimpse of Power to only be used against Worthy opponents, since that locks Masters out from spending Mastery to knock a door down with a single strike or leap across rooftops or any number of cool things an old master should be able to do if they felt the need to. How about you make it cost one-for-one against a Worthy foe, two-for-one otherwise? That gives you an incentive to only go all-out against a Worthy foe but still lets you use your true power a bit frivolously if you want to. I think I'll update, and at least change some of the advanced moves to make them unusable against Inferior opponents, and post back here
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2015 04:48
|
|
|
Drop Database posted:You're dead right about this. I need to lock down the better mastery moves to Worthy enemies. Currently, apart from Knowing is Half the Battle, only Perfect Stance gives you any reward at all. Let me put it this way. I'm a level one Master. I don't have any advanced moves yet besides the one I get from my background, and none of those interact with Inferior/Worthy. Do I have literally any reason to consider a foe Worthy? Because right now there's nothing, so the entire mechanical hook of the class is pointless until I take a move that actually interacts with Worthy. That could be three levels, easily. The Master needs something to make Worthy something worth thinking about at all. Also, the ability to spend the Mastery you just earned on a counterattack doesn't make the dodging option any less of an obvious pick. In fact, now that I'm thinking about it, it's probably worth rewriting the move to take that option out, just because it's that obvious of a choice. Maybe to something like quote:When you give an Inferior enemy a chance to attack you, gain 1 Mastery and Roll+DEX. On a 7 up, pick one from the list below. On a 10 up, you also dodge the attack completely. Lurks With Wolves fucked around with this message at 07:07 on Jun 11, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2015 06:54
|
|
|
Lurks With Wolves posted:Let me put it this way. I'm a level one Master. I don't have any advanced moves yet besides the one I get from my background, and none of those interact with Inferior/Worthy. Do I have literally any reason to consider a foe Worthy? Because right now there's nothing, so the entire mechanical hook of the class is pointless until I take a move that actually interacts with Worthy. That could be three levels, easily. The Master needs something to make Worthy something worth thinking about at all. That said, you're kind of making me second-guess that decision... On the one hand, there might be a situation where a level 1 Master encounters an enemy that should totally be Worthy, but has no mechanical way to unleash his power, and no mechanical power to unleash anyway. On the other, I don't want to overwhelm a player with all the mechanics in the starting moves right off the bat, and there is certainly precedent for classes getting important chunks of their mechanics as advanced moves. I guess I also like the meta-narrative that the Master leveling up isn't them getting stronger and learning new things, because they're already a strong and wise Master. It's them revealing their power I'll have to think about this some more - thank you very much for providing an alternative viewpoint! Lurks With Wolves posted:Also, the ability to spend the Mastery you just earned on a counterattack doesn't make the dodging option any less of an obvious pick. In fact, now that I'm thinking about it, it's probably worth rewriting the move to take that option out, just because it's that obvious of a choice. Maybe to something like I am actually totally okay with "enemy misses you" being an obvious pick most of the time. Why not? Many moves, including Volley and Defend are like that... Sure it's a non-choice in a typical situation, but it forces a more meaningful choice in a desperate one. I jumped in front of a charging chainsaw golem, to save a vulnerable teammate from getting cut apart...7-9 - I can pick one. Do I choose my own safety (I deliberately worded the option to only miss the Master, not anything else), or do I take one for the team, and divert it aside ensuring the safety of someone else. Come at me is closer to an alternative for Defend, than a replacement for Hack and Slash... What I do agree with you on, though, is that "don't draw attention" is currently an unexciting choice. Initially, I had the idea of the Master jealously guarding his secrets, and not exhibiting his skills openly. Think Pai Mei being deliberately obnoxious to drive away unworthy students, or Yoda acting like a degenerate scavenger to test Luke, or even, stretching it a little, Odin wandering around like an old hobo 90% of the time, and only revealing himself at the right time. Mechanically, the theme of secrecy is probably too subtle, though - it's in a couple of the moves, but it has mostly fictional consequences. If anything, I want to make it more explicit, though...
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2015 08:42
|
|
|
Drop Database posted:Some feedback, in no particular order: Good feedback, thank you! If I may clarify some things; - I tried to give each virtuoso area something they could theoretically bring to life. I agree that the mathematics one is the weakest one in that area. But you could theoretically have triangles and other geometric figures fly out and attack your enemies like birds, or get Pythagoras (or the fantasy equivalent of him) out of the book. - True, lots of +INT. I'm going to see if I can spread it between INT, CHA and maybe WIS. It's hardly the only class which does this, though (off the top of my head, the Mage only has INT moves, too). - Yeah, Fingerspitzengefühl is a weird name, but I understand it's a loanword in English? So it should have some "official" pronunciation even if it greatly differs from the German one. I might change it if it's too much of a tongue twister, but I don't really know an equivalent word in English. - I didn't word Polymath correctly. It gives you a +1 every time you use an area of expertise that is not the one you used last. So assume you start with Drawing and Painting, and then you pick up Music and Composition, you'd get +1 for alternating between the two instead of sticking to one multiple times in succession. I reworded it to make that clearer. - Yeah, limiting the Pen is Mightier was unnecessary. I'll leave it up to GM discretion. - I'd add to Heavy Mithril but that might make it a bit too strong. Should I remove the Metalworking and smithing part, or move it to the 6-10 list? I'm contemplating doing the latter. - Hmh, I suppose Muse should have some sort of limit. Nevertheless, I feel this is not much of an issue. You could call your own workshop a place of beauty and spam virtuoso there if you so desired. Additionally, the GM can still impose the ritual-like restrictions. Tell me if my changes sound fair enough, though. - Yeah, it's a bit muddy to me, too. I might scrap it. - Read you like a Book and Tampering weren't supposed to fit any of the virtuoso moves really. Every artist can read and write. Otherwise, I'm not sure how for example a sculptor would use this move. Wording it differently only makes the move more awkward IMO. - D'oh, I worded that and Heavy Mithril differently. I made it clearer that you actually get Clockworks, cogs and gears with that move now. - Maecenas doesn't let you actually impress anybody during play (at least not by itself). It's just a justification for why a wealthy person is throwing money at you and asking for favors. - Reworded Thick Hide so only an enemy can trigger it. Hopefully a good GM will let enemies liberally hurl insults at the Maestro, as God intended. - I'll have to think Art is Angsty over, yes. But just letting it remove debilities feels a bit weaksauce to me. But yeah, thanks for this extensive feedback. Some things which seemed clear to me were worded a bit odd. I'll have to consider adding a third page as a "playing and GM'ing the Maestro" explanation sheet, but that's basically admitting it's written in a messy manner. I agree the Maestro straddles the line between the Renaissance Man and the Crazy Artist Warrior, but that's exactly what I'm going for. The player can somewhat explore the facet he finds more interesting via advanced moves, but more importantly, I think having him just be the renaissance man makes the maestro rather lackluster in a combat-heavy game, and removing those aspects makes him rather monotonous. Do you have any suggestions for making them work or blend together more? I don't feel like there's a dissonance per se (not more than having the Ranger be both an archer and a beastmaster, or having the Thief be both a poisoner and guile rogue. However, a lot of the problems seem to arise from the mathematics and inventing area of Virtuoso. Perhaps I should combine that with the clockworks from What makes it Tick? I've tried that now and replaced it with wood engraving and crafting in Virtuoso. A whole bunch of rambling from me here, sorry if it's unclear. I've rewritten the Maestro as I went over every single point and come up with some ideas. The up-updated Maestro. EDIT: Not to mention the Fingerspitzengefühl/new Art Imitates Life move wasn't supposed to be used on your own pieces of art, anyway. Unless you're carrying them with you through a dungeon, the idea is to use it on paintings, crafted objects, statues, tapestries etc in the dungeon/wherever you're fighting. Only if you pick the Impressionism style would it really be viable to make art on the spot, but then you'd run into the problem of needing a place of beauty in the area. Perhaps I should introduce some sort of sketchbook item or move, that allows the artist to "store" a few works of art in advance so he can pull them out with Art Imitates Life when necessary? Deltasquid fucked around with this message at 10:44 on Jun 11, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2015 10:34
|
|
|
Deltasquid posted:Not to mention the Fingerspitzengefühl/new Art Imitates Life move wasn't supposed to be used on your own pieces of art, anyway. Unless you're carrying them with you through a dungeon, the idea is to use it on paintings, crafted objects, statues, tapestries etc in the dungeon/wherever you're fighting. Only if you pick the Impressionism style would it really be viable to make art on the spot, but then you'd run into the problem of needing a place of beauty in the area. Perhaps I should introduce some sort of sketchbook item or move, that allows the artist to "store" a few works of art in advance so he can pull them out with Art Imitates Life when necessary? I can easily make the case for tossing off a quick poem on the fly, and maybe a quick sketch to bring to life. The way the move is worded doesn't preclude that, it just encourages players to stretch the definition of true art. "this sketch is not mass-produced and totally original, and I think it's a masterpiece, now let me summon a minotaur with a flaming guitar". Maybe there should be a separate move (Artistic Expression?  ) to enable you to produce more obviously fantastical, but lesser effects from more mundane creations (not Virtuoso-scale ones), and then that is what moves like Art is Angsty, and Thick Hide can enhance, and the trigger for Art Imitates Life can be tightened up to only produce more grandiose Ritual-like effects (to go with the Ritual-like requirements on Virtuosso)? Deltasquid posted:I agree the Maestro straddles the line between the Renaissance Man and the Crazy Artist Warrior, but that's exactly what I'm going for. The player can somewhat explore the facet he finds more interesting via advanced moves, but more importantly, I think having him just be the renaissance man makes the maestro rather lackluster in a combat-heavy game, and removing those aspects makes him rather monotonous. Do you have any suggestions for making them work or blend together more? I don't feel like there's a dissonance per se (not more than having the Ranger be both an archer and a beastmaster, or having the Thief be both a poisoner and guile rogue. I think you're already on the right track with the changes to Less is More. I like having Metalworking as a focus, and I even like Math/Inventing, especially after you mentioned bringing triangles and ideal forms to life! They just need to fit into all the moves better.. Deltasquid posted:- Read you like a Book and Tampering weren't supposed to fit any of the virtuoso moves really. Every artist can read and write. Otherwise, I'm not sure how for example a sculptor would use this move. Wording it differently only makes the move more awkward IMO. - By specifying that, you're sort of dictating fiction to the player, and locking them into a concept to the exclusion of others. What if I want to play a primitive artist, with none of the learning but all of the expression? Most of the other moves fit.. - It would be way cooler if this did fit with Virtuoso. Why shouldn't it? The sculptor can see (and carve  ) the "true shape" of someone's thoughts. The clockworker can literally see their mental gears spinning. The Inventor can see their schematic, etc. Of course you don't want all that in the move - but a player and the DM can work it out at gametime just fine. It doesn't change the move's function, right?Sorry if I'm over-contributing - I just think it's an exciting idea
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2015 14:29
|
|
|
Drop Database posted:Holy crap, what? I totally assumed the "workflow" went: create art, bring it to life, laugh uproariously as it drives your enemies before you. Why wouldn't you use it on your own work? I get it, that's the workflow that was supposed to happen once you got the old Speed Painter move. In the end I think I'll drop Less is More and change More than Meets the Eye somehow, because I did get some creative juices flowing now. I think putting Speed Painter as an advanced move was the right call, so everyone can pick it up as advanced move. It's a bit odd gating it behind a move but otherwise expressionism becomes the best style to pick for just that reason, especially if we start adding fun stuff to your own quick works. But I agree it's an exciting idea. That's what I want it to be. So I value your imput. I am starting to see that thematically, letting the players and GM run wild is the best method for designing an artist class of all things.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2015 14:49
|
|
|
I should probably never play as the Maestro. I took enough useless aesthetic philosophy classes in college that I could argue drat near anything as a genuine work of art. The GM would, then, rightfully kick me the hell out.Drop Database posted:I don't think "renaissance man artiste, but with magical powers to bring art to life" is necessarily a dissonant concept. For example:  Deltasquid posted:- Read you like a Book and Tampering weren't supposed to fit any of the virtuoso moves really. Every artist can read and write. Otherwise, I'm not sure how for example a sculptor would use this move. Wording it differently only makes the move more awkward IMO. A sculptor could read the shape of their face, all its lines and curves, and figure out how that person got that way, or read who they are. A mathematician can calculate all the ratios of their face and learn some ultimate Platonic truth about them. I think you could make it fit any of the Virtuoso disciplines. You could try wording it like: "When you examine someone's face through the lens of your virtuosic expertise, you may ask a question about them that the GM must answer truthfully. You might see this truth as pages unfurling from their skin, or a single note echoing across the contours of their face, or anything else that makes sense for your area of expertise."
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2015 14:50
|
|
|
Hmh. So should I keep the maths and inventing option for Virtuoso? I think I might just add clockworks to that to start with, and scrap "What makes it tick?" entirely. EDIT: on second thought I'm not sure why I need a separate move for turning sketches to life. Out with Speed Painter, I'll reword Art imitates Life. EDIT2: Here's an updated version. Yes, I have "More than meets the eye" two times on there for now. Not sure where it'd fit, or if it's an interesting move at all. Deltasquid fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Jun 11, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2015 15:08
|
|
|
Drop Database posted:Actually, as it currently stands, you don't even have a way to declare an enemy Worthy - Not left-handed is an advanced move. As I wrote it, you only fight Inferior enemies at level one, and get the second half of the mechanic as you level up/reveal your power. I mean, in terms of functionality, you can defend yourself effectively, and spend the Mastery you gain on exhibiting glimpses of your true power, without encountering a Worthy foe - it's not as though the class is broken until you level up and fix it. Three things. One, that isn't clear in the text. I always just assumed that all you needed to do to declare someone Worthy was, well, consider them worthy. Two, I Am Not Left-Handed triggers when you recognize someone as worthy under specific circumstances, which implies that you can do it whenever. Three, if you can't declare someone Worthy until you get a move like I Am Not Left-Handed, that means you can take a bunch of moves that only work against Worthy opponents without ever actually having a way to make someone Worthy. quote:That said, you're kind of making me second-guess that decision... I think you're making the Master out to be more complicated than it is. When you get down to it, Inferior/Worthy is just "if someone's not worth my time I can do X, if they are I can do Y". Still, wanting to incentivize Masters to decide more foes are Worthy as they go up in level is a good goal. I just think the baseline's too low. quote:I am actually totally okay with "enemy misses you" being an obvious pick most of the time. Why not? Many moves, including Volley and Defend are like that... Sure it's a non-choice in a typical situation, but it forces a more meaningful choice in a desperate one. I jumped in front of a charging chainsaw golem, to save a vulnerable teammate from getting cut apart...7-9 - I can pick one. Do I choose my own safety (I deliberately worded the option to only miss the Master, not anything else), or do I take one for the team, and divert it aside ensuring the safety of someone else. Come at me is closer to an alternative for Defend, than a replacement for Hack and Slash... I wasn't really viewing it as a Hack and Slash replacement in the first place, I mean, it's still a move about letting people you don't care about try to take a swing against you and then showing them how far out of their league you are. Anyway, I don't really have anything more to say on this subject beyond "I disagree with you", so let's just shelve it. quote:What I do agree with you on, though, is that "don't draw attention" is currently an unexciting choice. Initially, I had the idea of the Master jealously guarding his secrets, and not exhibiting his skills openly. Maybe just give them a minor fluff move to show what happens when they do reveal themselves? Say, something like this? quote:Interesting Times Lurks With Wolves fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Jun 11, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2015 18:16
|
|
|
Lurks With Wolves posted:Three things. One, that isn't clear in the text. I always just assumed that all you needed to do to declare someone Worthy was, well, consider them worthy. Two, I Am Not Left-Handed triggers when you recognize someone as worthy under specific circumstances, which implies that you can do it whenever. Three, if you can't declare someone Worthy until you get a move like I Am Not Left-Handed, that means you can take a bunch of moves that only work against Worthy opponents without ever actually having a way to make someone Worthy. Thanks again for your insight - you've really made me think. Where I'm at at the moment is that I want to keep the tone (if not necessarily the exact wording/effect) of the trigger for I'm not left-handed as the only way to declare enemies Worthy. I'm really looking to compel players to go for that cinematic reveal of their power, in addition to the mechanical choice. What I've done, though, is moved Not Left-handed to be a starting move. At level 1, all it gives you is the 2 Mastery - but that bump should actually be enough to quickly and convincingly end most fights - and from then, you choose advanced moves to do more stuff. I've also re-worded Not Worth My Time slightly to be a little more clear about how to actually get Worthy enemies. Lurks With Wolves posted:Maybe just give them a minor fluff move to show what happens when they do reveal themselves? Say, something like this? With those changes, and many of the others suggested, plus a few moves I added, it's probably worth asking people to have a second look at the class The Master Updated Please take a look and tell me what you think
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2015 06:50
|
|
|
Deltasquid posted:Hmh. So should I keep the maths and inventing option for Virtuoso? I think I might just add clockworks to that to start with, and scrap "What makes it tick?" entirely. I'm just kind of jumping into the input process here, please forgive me in advance. I was working on something vaguely like the Maestro sometime last year, but I never got anything to come of it. I feel my Inspiration system came off as overly mechanical and clunky, but if there's anything in there that you like you're more than welcome to it, even if its just the open ripoffs of Deviantart culture in Eyes and Hair. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3JHVfVKefvfYlVYUEJHX3VqVTg/view?usp=sharing I feel like the Maestro as written has a lot hanging on the "artist attacking with his tools up front" thing which is OK but spreads out over something like 3-6 moves. I might pick up a single move to make me better at fighting, sure, but what I'd like more is things that can expand what my Maestro does with his art. To that end, I would find a way to combine The Pen is Mightier and The Art of War, maybe something like "Your artists tools are weapons in your hands. Your damage die when attacking or using art to attack is a d6" which means you only need one move and one die and also keeps you in a support role instead of up-front fighting via a picture of the Ranger. Thick Hide and Critics Love To Hate are flavorful but aren't particularly proactive, like they're not going to be as fun as Eccentric or Guardian in-play. I would be mad careful about Heavy Mithril taking niche protection from Fighter/Warrior, since that's one of their biggest deals. Going through the other moves really quickly, Maecenas is going to be a pain in the rear end for a GM to adjudicate, especially at level 2, although it might be appropriate at level 6-10. Maybe something about being accepted in high society regardless of your weird artiste behavior as a preliminary move? Guardian is cool enough, I'd take Guardian. True Art Is Angsty could use a different name, but if you bumped down the recovery to 1d4 or 1d6 you could probably move it down to 2-5 as an attractive option. Maybe "Tortured Artiste" or "Bleeding Onto The Canvas"? Magnum Opus actually reads like a death move, and it feels weird to jump directly from 0 magical traits to 3, since it doesn't require More Than Meets The Eye. In addition, its hard to piece together what a "trait" means exactly. Maybe there could be an intermediary move based on More Than Meets The Eye, where you temporarily make a piece of gear art and give it one trait, just to have somewhere to quickly spell out that a "trait" is a taglike magical effect? A cloak that has golden wings on it, or better yet, a golden equation for flight or a symphony about Daedalus' tragedies sewn into the threads, that could actually fly for a time, gives you a cool temporary crafter niche that no other class really has. I think it makes sense for a class that makes things to be actually able to make things that the party can use, even if the magic fades afterward. I love the poo poo out of Muse, Eccentric, Read You Like a Book, Life Imitates Art, Capturing The Essence, and Tampering, although Eccentric should probably be +Cha. And to answer your question, yes keep Math, Math rules. Music and Composition steps on the Bard/Skald's toes a little, but the (unintended?) interaction with Art Imitates Life where you can summon Wagnerian valkyries from stirring operas to attack your unworthy foes probably makes it worth it. Anyway uh thats what I think!
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2015 09:32
|
|
|
I like your way of thinking. Those are all some really good points. And I just noticed somebody else posted a master artist in the Google+ DW tavern group. Whelp. I guess I'll try not to crib too much off him, but it seems fine as his shtick seems more the sort of "modify existing objects" than magical painter. Some more Maestro. We're getting there, I promise. Added some more socialite options and cut down on WARFARE options.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2015 14:36
|
|
|
I'm running DW as a teambuilding exercise @ my office this afternoon - I had a request for a pirate playbook. Can someone recommend me one?
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2015 17:28
|
|
|
Peas and Rice posted:I'm running DW as a teambuilding exercise @ my office this afternoon - I had a request for a pirate playbook. Can someone recommend me one? Inverse World's Captain can be pretty pirate-y, though moreso a sky pirate. They invest enough in their ship that you can't just ditch it. Dashing Hero is a swashbuckler that could be a pirate if you wanted it to.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2015 17:35
|
|
|
Handgun Phonics posted:Inverse World's Captain can be pretty pirate-y, though moreso a sky pirate. They invest enough in their ship that you can't just ditch it. Dashing Hero is a swashbuckler that could be a pirate if you wanted it to. These are total newbies, so it doesn't have to be anything but a basic sketch of what a pirate could be. Is this the one?
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2015 17:50
|
|
|
Peas and Rice posted:These are total newbies, so it doesn't have to be anything but a basic sketch of what a pirate could be. Yeah, that's the one. Its all about being dashing and swinging on chandlers and stuff.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2015 17:57
|
|
|
Arashiofordo3 posted:Yeah, that's the one. Its all about being dashing and swinging on chandlers and stuff. Perfect, thanks - that's exactly what I need!
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2015 18:00
|
|
|
Are there any updated versions of the Medic, or similar healer classes? Another player in the game I'm in is looking at playing Medic, but some of the moves on the version we have are pretty clunky, particularly the origin moves.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2015 04:29
|
|
|
There's the Priest, which iirc is a Cleric made to function well without a spellbook. I still have scattered notes on "The Medibomber," which is pretty much what it sounds like. The idea is to have a support class, but also give them fun and different things to do in combat as well. And bombs. I need to fool around with it more.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2015 08:02
|
|
|
GaistHeidegger posted:All in all, I think the gang had a pretty good time and I'm hoping we can wrap our heads around things a bit better as we proceed. As usually seems to be the case, my main retrospect is a need to get to exploring more GM moves so attacks are less frequently 'tries to deal damage.' The main persisting hangup we seem to have is any time a baddie goes to attack someone two or three people all want to pine in and interject with counterattacks / defenses / etc. and often the response to most dangers is 'I want to dive out of the way' still. This was a while ago, but this was something I always had trouble with when GMing Dungeon World as well. I had a tough time finding situations in combat where I could push my players to respond to danger in ways other than "I dive out of the way, Defy Danger +DEX!" Eventually some of the players started to get really proactive and tried to defend one another or counterattack, but that mostly led to three or so really assertive players taking almost all of the actions in combat because the others never really got a chance to do anything. I'll probably GM Dungeon World again in the near future, but I haven't really found a good solution to this yet. Anyone have advice or good examples?
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 04:29
|
|
|
Harrow posted:This was a while ago, but this was something I always had trouble with when GMing Dungeon World as well. I had a tough time finding situations in combat where I could push my players to respond to danger in ways other than "I dive out of the way, Defy Danger +DEX!" Eventually some of the players started to get really proactive and tried to defend one another or counterattack, but that mostly led to three or so really assertive players taking almost all of the actions in combat because the others never really got a chance to do anything. If you have a mix of active players and quiet ones, the best thing is to put the quiet ones on the spot. EXAMPLE: Player A flings the monster away with a mighty throw...Player B, there's a big, pissed off, monster flying in your direction. What do you do?
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 04:59
|
|
|
I dive out of the way, Defy Danger +DEX!
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 05:04
|
|
|
slydingdoor posted:I dive out of the way, Defy Danger +DEX! Well, at least the quiet player is doing something.  As for the DD issue, give them danger they can't just dodge.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 05:06
|
|
|
Error 404 posted:Well, at least the quiet player is doing something. Eldritch riddles, a falling wall, poison gas, a flanking maneuver into shadow, someone yelling "Truce, truce" in broken Elvish...
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 05:19
|
|
|
Start throwing problems at them that they can't dodge. Sometimes dodging is good, of course. But if that's their go-to reaction, either physically hinder them, make dodging the worst solution, or endanger something they care about instead of them directly. The goblin latches onto your face, and starts punching and clawing at you! The orc pins your leg to the ground, and goes for a downward slash! A sneaky kobold snatches the Plot Gem from your belt, and scurries away! Your dazed friend is about to get hit by a troll! The possessed elf aims his longbow at your wizard, but he hasn't noticed! Or prompts which show an opportunity or approaching danger. Heck, give them a big, juicy, irresistible target. You can throw more enemies at them once their confidence is boosted by some successes: The evil lich on the other side of the room is preparing to cast something! (They can't really dodge this, because they have no idea if the spell is even aimed at them or not. He might be buffing his allies or something. And if they do dodge, make it clear to them that no, he wasn't even going to attack you, you scaredy cat.) As John Doe the Fighter wrestles with the lizardmen, one of them turns their back at you! The statues in the hall look like they could easily be toppled onto the enemies! The gate is slowly opening, and some zombies are crawling out from underneath! (Optimally they should know about the gate and the lever to close it, right next to some enemy) Your cleric steps into a trap, and you see a pressure plate sink below their foot as they walk in the doorframe! Basically, get them into the action by: 1) Hindering their ability to dodge (the laziest option IMO, and the one that's most obvious if they don't fail their rolls) 2) Making dodging the least attractive option (they'll lose their gem, or weapon, or anything else they might care about) 3) Giving them targets or dangers that only they can deal with (because the other party members are preoccupied with whatever they're doing while that's going on, or simply don't see the opportunity/danger) 3 seems like the most gentle way to get them into the action because you're not really punishing them with a hard move or anything, just flashing "Look here! Do something!" in neon lights above something for them to do. Fluff it up by saying "All right, while the fighter is capping these fools, [unengaged wizard] sees X happening!"
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 09:20
|
|
|
Thanks for all the advice, everyone. That's some helpful stuff. I hope I get the change to run Dungeon World again sometime soon. I'm falling out of love with our current system at about the same rate as my players are falling in love with it, which doesn't bode well for my motivation as a GM, but whatever. I miss the kind of narrative focus that PbtA games do so well. It's hard to work that kind of thing, combat-wise, into just about any other system.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 18:14
|
|
|
Hello friends! For the first time in a very long time, I've released a new dungeon world playbook that I actually wrote: The Spellsword. As usual, there is a free preview available in the product description, please check it out!
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2015 15:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 15:12 |
|
|
gnome7 posted:Hello friends! For the first time in a very long time, I've released a new dungeon world playbook that I actually wrote: The Spellsword. As usual, there is a free preview available in the product description, please check it out! I can't see the preview but you described the playbook with Polnareff and that immediately caught my interest. EDIT: false alarm, I can see it now. Wonderful. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2015 17:32
|
|