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GunnerJ posted:I just don't get what he thinks makes Exalted so different that this approach just won't work for Exalted specifically, as opposed to other games with very similar systems. Or maybe it's because those games don't need to hammer out rape ghost spells away from the prying, judgmental eyes of John Q. Backer. I still find it hilarious that even though it's been such a mess of questionable pr decisions and absolute poo poo at interacting with backers, I'm still much happier and less skeeved out with what we got in the Ex3 leak than what MacFarland openly shared with everyone for free with Beast.
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Jun 11, 2015 00:52
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Well, put it like this: Y'all know about Lunars, right? If they did an open dev Kickstarter for the Lunars book, they will get exactly as many people vocally complaining about the content of the Lunars book as are currently complaining about Beast. (It will have a lot more backers, period, so the percentage will be a much smaller one, but it'll be about the same in absolute terms.) This will happen no matter what is actually in the book. Much of the criticism will be either bad generally or will amount to "I wish you had done Lunars to be this other thing, which I like better." It is not hugely surprising to me that the devs don't want to put themselves in a position where they have to either sort through all the noise to find useful criticism or deal with a KS that has a lot of angry feedback which they are openly ignoring again.
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Jun 11, 2015 00:58
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Rand Brittain posted:Y'all know about Lunars, right? If they did an open dev Kickstarter for the Lunars book, they will get exactly as many people vocally complaining about the content of the Lunars book as are currently complaining about Beast. (It will have a lot more backers, period, so the percentage will be a much smaller one, but it'll be about the same in absolute terms.) This will happen no matter what is actually in the book. Let me just say, very quickly and concisely, that Beast is the exact opposite of what I want out of Lunars  Also that still doesn't work because I remember people were fellating Demon when its preview came out, or at least the people who were positive about it were outnumbering the people angry about it. Bedlamdan fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Jun 11, 2015 |
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Jun 11, 2015 01:00
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Rand Brittain posted:Well, put it like this: What you haven't provided here is a reason why the load of acrimonious criticism that would be accompany a visible Lunars draft would somehow be more ruinous to the development process than the load of acrimonious criticism that would occur in the absence of a visible Lunars draft. Has discussion of the corebook leak interfered with development? Does fans complaining cause the writers physical pain?
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Jun 11, 2015 01:06
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Rand Brittain posted:Well, put it like this: In other words the developers have preemptively decided that any and all criticism of their products will be bad in advance and can thus be ignored. How convenient!
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Jun 11, 2015 01:06
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I mean, unlike Beast, Exalted's leak is being met with more actual interest than acrimony! Ferrinus likes it, Attorney At Funk likes it. At least, they like it enough to play it? RPG.net is generally enthusiastic about it. It's because they made a pretty good game in spite of the Devs' 'my way or the highway attitude' over legacy crap like bp/xp. If Ex3's leak ended up as bad of a product as the Kickstarter version of Beast, then the acrimony would be much, much more substantial instead of just ignored or given backhanded complements here? Edit: I mean, I'm all for ignoring anything that comes out of this thread because it's been a shitshow for years, but a preview draft wouldn't do much besides giving people the ability to rebuff the angry dudes. The leak was probably the best thing to happen for the game's PR, here. Bedlamdan fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Jun 11, 2015 |
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Jun 11, 2015 01:11
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Also, like, you don't actually need to "sort through" (for example) Beast criticism to find useful critique amidst all the noise, that gosh-folks-there's-lots-of-controversy-y'all-don'tcherknow stuff is just weakass excuses. It's pretty easy to tell what people don't like about the game because the same stuff keeps cropping up and the Brownian motion of continuous internet discussion will handily compress and refine all the disparate viewpoints for you if you just give it a bit.
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Jun 11, 2015 01:21
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I mean, I'm not going to hold Rand up as a proxy for all the issues with how Beast/Exalted has handled fan criticism thus far, if only because Chuubo's at least gave us a preview document.
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Jun 11, 2015 01:27
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Bedlamdan posted:I mean, I'm not going to hold Rand up as a proxy for all the issues with how Beast/Exalted has handled fan criticism thus far, if only because Chuubo's at least gave us a preview document. I just find it kind of boggling that the justification he's giving to try and explain why the developers arent giving any sort of previews out is literally "we've decided that no criticism leveled at our hypothetical future products will be good." I mean, I get that Rand is mainly just spitballing here and isn't actually the guy in charge, but the fact that he considers this a reasonable and not insane line of thought is kinda weird.
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Jun 11, 2015 01:34
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Kai Tave posted:I just find it kind of boggling that the justification he's giving to try and explain why the developers arent giving any sort of previews out is literally "we've decided that no criticism leveled at our hypothetical future products will be good." I mean, I get that Rand is mainly just spitballing here and isn't actually the guy in charge, but the fact that he considers this a reasonable and not insane line of thought is kinda weird. I agree with Ferrinus. I don't understand how the combination of non-interest and acrimonious criticism that comes from keeping all their cards close to their chest until a playtester illegally leaks the game is less bad than people giving substantive criticism. I'm no pro game developer, but I think it'd be much easier to explain why I did the fluff a certain way or why a rule is what it is rather than try to keep people happy and interested without showing them very much, especially if I was this late. One point I don't think anyone's brought up is that Holden especially tends to voice a lot of anxiety about "giving our core mechanics away for free." I don't know if this is a fear about a free preview of all the core mechanics leading to homebrew competing with future splats, core systems being posted online taking away sales, or what, but I always see him say that.
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Jun 11, 2015 02:17
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Kai Tave posted:I just find it kind of boggling that the justification he's giving to try and explain why the developers arent giving any sort of previews out is literally "we've decided that no criticism leveled at our hypothetical future products will be good." I mean, I get that Rand is mainly just spitballing here and isn't actually the guy in charge, but the fact that he considers this a reasonable and not insane line of thought is kinda weird. I didn't say that they thought none of the criticism would be good. I said that they thought it would mostly be not good.
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Jun 11, 2015 02:27
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Rand Brittain posted:I didn't say that they thought none of the criticism would be good. I said that they thought it would mostly be not good. Splitting that hair finer and finer doesn't really matter when the decision either way is "and so we're going to ignore it all regardless." I mean, realtalk, as much of this thread that's been a shitshow back when Holden was posting here there was a lot of good criticism and feedback being put out there by posters who weren't just frothing at the mouth and hurling invective, and it all got lumped in the same box labeled "dumb fan bitching, safely ignore" as the dudes arguing whose fanon theories are superior or whatever the devs are afraid of.
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Jun 11, 2015 02:38
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RPG internet discussion spheres seem, especially in the last 10 years, to be pretty good about elevating the criticism that most resonates with the majority of the player base and elevating it to common knowledge/memetic status.
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Jun 11, 2015 02:44
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Rand Brittain posted:I didn't say that they thought none of the criticism would be good. I said that they thought it would mostly be not good. Okay, but what you didn't say is why it matters. Given that people are going to post about the upcoming Dragon-Blooded book or whatever regardless, what's the problem with their posts being based on actual information? I guess if the product is lousy and you're hoping to trick people into buying it you want to keep its actual contents under wraps as much as possible, but...
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Jun 11, 2015 02:48
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Ferrinus posted:Okay, but what you didn't say is why it matters. Given that people are going to post about the upcoming Dragon-Blooded book or whatever regardless, what's the problem with their posts being based on actual information? I think he thinks that people who are mad about waiting will forget why they were mad once they aren't waiting any more, but people who get turned off of the problem by people arguing about God-King's Shrike might decide they aren't interested without giving it a fair shake.
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Jun 11, 2015 02:53
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Since people keep mentioning Beast, I'm curious what's so problematic about it. I haven't looked at any of the stuff to do with it.
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Jun 11, 2015 02:54
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Roadie posted:Since people keep mentioning Beast, I'm curious what's so problematic about it. I haven't looked at any of the stuff to do with it. Basically, Beast is supposed to be a game where you play someone who always thought they were different, and then realizes that it's because they have the soul of an ancient Beast. This metaphor falls apart because Beasts are vile sociopathic monsters who feed off of abusing people who can't defend themselves. Or at least they were until like 80% of the people reading the Kickstarter draft text said "God, no" and it was agreed by the authors that if people saw it that way rewrites would have to be done.
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Jun 11, 2015 02:56
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Rand Brittain posted:I think he thinks that people who are mad about waiting will forget why they were mad once they aren't waiting any more, but people who get turned off of the problem by people arguing about God-King's Shrike might decide they aren't interested without giving it a fair shake. If you're going to care about what one part of the fan base says to another in the first place, it seems highly questionable to assume that the cabin fever produced by limited/no information is preferable from a PR standpoint to the argument produced by an actual rules draft to examine (unless the rules draft is, itself, egregiously bad). Frankly I don't think it's tenable at all to claim that the team has some kind of top-down, calculated strategy w/r/t information releases. Look at how petty they were over getting an inadequate amount of praise for their early social charm spoilers, a literal year or more ago!
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Jun 11, 2015 03:19
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Bedlamdan posted:I still find it hilarious that even though it's been such a mess of questionable pr decisions and absolute poo poo at interacting with backers, I'm still much happier and less skeeved out with what we got in the Ex3 leak than what MacFarland openly shared with everyone for free with Beast. Bedlamdan posted:Let me just say, very quickly and concisely, that Beast is the exact opposite of what I want out of Lunars OK I really want to know what the deal with Beast is now.
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Jun 11, 2015 04:19
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GunnerJ posted:OK I really want to know what the deal with Beast is now. Read the WoD thread, gawd.
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Jun 11, 2015 04:20
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So, did they confirm they are staying with the last version leaked or are there any announced revisions as a result of criticism?
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Jun 11, 2015 04:24
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Covok posted:So, did they confirm they are staying with the last version leaked or are there any announced revisions as a result of criticism? I suspect that, at most we're just getting rules tweaks to stuff already there.
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Jun 11, 2015 04:27
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Covok posted:So, did they confirm they are staying with the last version leaked or are there any announced revisions as a result of criticism? Let me tell you all the news we have heard so far: That is all.
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Jun 11, 2015 04:27
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So, nothing has been said in the leak discussion thread on rpg.net?
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Jun 11, 2015 04:28
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Covok posted:So, nothing has been said in the leak discussion thread on rpg.net? None of the devs are posting in them.
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Jun 11, 2015 04:28
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GunnerJ posted:OK I really want to know what the deal with Beast is now. You play as an Otherkin. Not a vampire or werewolf or eleven-dicked rainbow chupacabra; this is a second-order phenomenon where you play as the guy who thinks he is FOR REAL this creature in his SOUL. And you let people know it by being an rear end in a top hat on the internet or in person or through subtle gaslighting or by generally being awkward and uncomfortable to be around with zero self-awareness. Over time you escalate to such unbearable levels of dickishness that even 4channers will go out of their way to tell you to gently caress off forever, and then you face these hypocritical 'heroes' in your Also all the other supernaturals love you (except Changelings, because you feel more camaraderie with the True Fae. No, seriously.) and you gain your mana type (Satiety) by watching them do their thing and feeling vicariously awesome. And sometimes you have actual superpowers because ???
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Jun 11, 2015 04:44
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Wait, so you play as something worse than a Slasher? Well, OWoD was wish fulfilment for the nerd archetypes of its time, I guess this is the modern day equivalent. Man, when did the phenotype of nerds move from socially awkward types to downright malevolent yet powerless wretches? I know SA is entirely built around the concept but geez. Ronwayne fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Jun 11, 2015 |
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Jun 11, 2015 04:51
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Ronwayne posted:Wait, so you play as something worse than a Slasher? It's the most oWoD game since the death of the oWoD.
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Jun 11, 2015 05:09
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MonsieurChoc posted:It's the most oWoD game since the death of the oWoD. Mummy is pretty stiff competition, honestly. Book of the Deceived is straight-up old World of Darkness.
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Jun 11, 2015 05:10
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Rand Brittain posted:Mummy is pretty stiff competition, honestly. Book of the Deceived is straight-up old World of Darkness. God damnit.
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Jun 11, 2015 05:16
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Rand Brittain posted:Mummy is pretty stiff competition, honestly. Book of the Deceived is straight-up old World of Darkness. Does Mummy have an example of play where the PCs poison and psychologically traumatize a child for stealing Halloween candy? If the answer is no then no, Mummy does not win the Trying Too Hard To Be Edgy award.
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Jun 11, 2015 07:50
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MonsieurChoc posted:It's the most oWoD game since the death of the oWoD.
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Jun 11, 2015 08:08
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Ronwayne posted:Man, when did the phenotype of nerds move from socially awkward types to downright malevolent yet powerless wretches? I know SA is entirely built around the concept but geez. When most of the nerdy hobbies went mainstream, and the internet let the really terrible people who would previously have been more or less socialized either violently or via being ostracized by their peers find echo chambers to reinforce their terrible viewpoints and behaviors.
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Jun 11, 2015 09:33
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MonsieurChoc posted:It's the most oWoD game since the death of the oWoD. Do not insult oWoD like that.
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Jun 11, 2015 12:31
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Nessus posted:::sighs and unsheathes somanykatanas.com::
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Jun 11, 2015 12:55
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I kinda feel sorry for the Sardonyx (The new trinity/Scion system) dev team, since they're just quietly releasing their core mechanics for open development and it seems pretty interesting so far but it's been pretty much drowned out by how much is going wrong with Beast.
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Jun 11, 2015 12:58
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unseenlibrarian posted:I kinda feel sorry for the Sardonyx (The new trinity/Scion system) dev team, since they're just quietly releasing their core mechanics for open development and it seems pretty interesting so far but it's been pretty much drowned out by how much is going wrong with Beast. Yeah, I mean Beast is pretty bad but I'm just gonna get super bored of reading the WoD thread when everyone keeps going back to BEAST  over and over again which is what happens whenever a group of goons get pissed at something.4chan at least just made a separate thread to vent about Beast so they're still readable.
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Jun 11, 2015 13:18
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Bedlamdan posted:Yeah, I mean Beast is pretty bad but I'm just gonna get super bored of reading the WoD thread when everyone keeps going back to BEAST Is somebody forcing you to read the WoD thread and then post about it in unrelated threads? Is your life in danger? Do we need to call the police?
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Jun 11, 2015 14:02
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Doc Aquatic posted:Is somebody forcing you to read the WoD thread and then post about it in unrelated threads? Is your life in danger? Do we need to call the police? I didn't bring up Beast first, NIV3K did.  And I mean, when most of the discussion is how Ex3 could be handling its KS, yeah Beast is also relevant given its another OPP thingy.
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Jun 11, 2015 14:39
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unseenlibrarian posted:I kinda feel sorry for the Sardonyx (The new trinity/Scion system) dev team, since they're just quietly releasing their core mechanics for open development and it seems pretty interesting so far but it's been pretty much drowned out by how much is going wrong with Beast. I am so hype for Trinity you have no idea.
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Jun 11, 2015 15:05
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