Fiction Writing: Advice and Discussion

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > Fiction Writing: Advice and Discussion

«‹›187 »

anime was right: Jun 27, 2008; death is certain
keep yr cool

pretty much the entire point of td is to force yourself out of your comfort zone and also the crits (mostly the crits)

# ? Jun 11, 2015 06:34

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 15, 2024 02:37

crabrock: Aug 2, 2002; I

AM

MAGNIFICENT

DOGPILE ON THAT MOTHERFUCKER

# ? Jun 11, 2015 07:19

Bad Seafood: Dec 10, 2010; If you must blink, do it now.

spectres of autism posted:

hey seafood, if youre reading this, i dont remember what pizza week was but sometimes i feel my stories are such bullshit that i dont even feel like reading the crits on them. (this is something im trying to change). if you critted me on one of those weeks thats prolly what happened. sorry for the story and for making you feel like you wasted your time

Pizza week was the week Crabrock asked you and another hapless volunteer to each write half of a story and glue them together. He also asked for lighthearted, upbeat stories, so of course you turned in a child genius whose creation kills everyone around him and an insane recluse who breaks his shotgun out of storage to kill his therapist. My crit for you that week was much the same as this weeks: too much focus on superfluous details, not enough focus on characters.

Speaking of which, let's talk about your homework. Yaay, homework!

spectres of autism posted:

Seedling
100 words

�Treechild,� he heard someone say, but he couldn�t understand. It sounded good to him, sonorous. Then they were covering him in dirt. It was a comfy blanket and he fell asleep, dreaming of distant lights.

And as he grew, memories would start in his head and flow down his body into the earth. It felt warm, like maybe they would feel when they played on faraway spheres, going round and round the distant lights.

He understood, when he was fully grown, that somewhere else trees and children were separate things. But by then, he was rooted.

I didn't like this, but I'm glad you wrote it because it serves as a perfect microcosm of your problems. We've reduced the issues with your writing to their simplest, most distilled form. That's good!

So as far as I can tell the plot here is our protagonist is buried in the ground as a child and grows up to be a tree. That's it. That's what happens. There's this quasi-mystic atmosphere and the sort of implication that perhaps he was never quite a person or a plant but something in between, but that's peanuts. The core of what's going on here is exactly as I have described: a dude gets buried underground and becomes a tree. Later he has a revelation of dubious importance. The end.

I don't like this story because I don't care about anything that happens in it. In this case, I don't care because there are no characters. Your protagonist isn't a character, he is an object acted upon by unseen forces. Assuming there existed an entire forest of these seedlings, your protagonist has nothing going for him which in any way distinguishes himself from his peers.

Here is a list of everything I know about your protagonist based off this story:

He is a tree.
Sometimes he thinks about not being a tree.

Okay. Not a great start.

Does this tree aspire to be anything? Does he want to be the tallest tree in the forest? Maybe a family of birds makes a nest in his branches. How does he feel about them? Does he talk to them? Can he talk to them? Can he talk to anyone? I mean, he's a tree, sure, but not quite a tree-tree. When spring comes, does he produce fruit? Is he proud that people like his fruit enough to climb his branches and gather them? Is he angry that they're taking his fruit away? When it's cold and snowy and his leaves all fall off and he's standing naked and alone in the dead of winter, does he find it a pain to be rooted in one spot? Does he hate dogs because he pee on him? Does he laugh when squirrels climb up his side? Is he afraid of fire? Maybe he isn't. Maybe he's never seen fire. Maybe he doesn't know what this fire business is, but he's sure he could handle it.

Maybe a young couple carved their initials inside a big ol' heart right on his trunk. Maybe it hurt but he couldn't get mad because they were in love in a really sappy movie kind of way and it warmed him to his core.

Maybe someone cuts him down to make something out of him. People do that with trees, you know. Is that the end of him? Does he die, or does he live on in the objects they fashion out of him? Is it painful? Is he bitter about his fate or does he calmly accept it?

Here are some professionally published stories about trees with goals and personalities. Real stories by real authors!

"But Seafood," you might say to me, "Those are full-on books with pages and illustrations and dust jackets and sections about the author. Those are way more than 100 measly words!"

Well you can write plenty in 100 measly words. Allow me to demonstrate by doing my own homework.

Bad Seafood posted:

HOMEWORK: Someone is born, lives, and dies in 100 words and don't you dare waste a sentence on meaningless details.

Bad Seafood's word processor posted:

Metamorphosis (100 words)

Erica's parents wanted a boy. Instead they got Erica. Her father added the extra letter to the birth certificate himself.

Erica liked baseball and bugs. She would quietly disapprove whenever the neighborhood boys got together and tried to fry ants. When she was older she stole their magnifying glass. They were too chicken to beat up a girl.

College came and went. Erica was pleased to learn you could make money studying bugs. She had less time for baseball, but kept the radio running in the lab when her team was playing.

Marisposa Field is named in her memory.

I typed this up in maybe five minutes. It's not a great story. I tell a few times when I could be showing. I could probably clip some words here and there to make more room for her later life. Arguably the real story starts in the second paragraph, meaning the first lingers on meaningless details. Guess I failed my own homework.

But let's not talk about that. Let's talk about what I've established about Erica in a mere 100 words.

She likes baseball.
She likes bugs.
She is implicitly a tomboy.
She preferred to avoid direct confrontation as a child, but...
...Grew bold enough to swipe someone else's stuff right in front of them because...
...She disapproved of their cruelty.
She goes on to become college educated.
She goes on to become an entomologist.
She retains her childhood interests.
She became influential or beloved enough to have something named after her;
Implicitly a baseball field;
Implicitly after her favorite insect;
Implicitly after her death.
Her death isn't expanded on, so you can reasonably infer it was probably later on and peaceful...
...Which suggests she continued to like baseball into her old age.

Not too shabby for 100 words. Of course, that's a mighty brief period of time to get to know her. At 100 words, you'll certainly be stretched thin. However, herein lies the skeleton of a possibly compelling character. Imagine if I took this rough sketch and gave it a 1,000 more words to shine? Erica isn't a particularly deep or novel character, but I'll bet if I polled everyone in this thread, all or nearly all of them would rather read about her than your vaguely defined plant person.

So Autism, if you actually care about writing and improving, I'm going to ask you to do that homework one more time. I'll even grant you 100 extra words. That's 200 words! Surely you can make me care about someone's life story in 200 words.

That said, if you can't even do this - after the sentiments you've expressed in this thread - I'll probably never throw a crit your way again.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 07:19

Sitting Here: Dec 31, 2007

spectres of autism posted:

hey seafood, if youre reading this, i dont remember what pizza week was but sometimes i feel my stories are such bullshit that i dont even feel like reading the crits on them. (this is something im trying to change). if you critted me on one of those weeks thats prolly what happened. sorry for the story and for making you feel like you wasted your time

Lots of stories are bullshit in TD. That's why you're writing in TD. The goal is not to get crits on a perfect story. You're trying discover and work on your problems.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 07:37

painted bird: Oct 18, 2013; by Lowtax

Speaking of feedback. I'm still looking for crits.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 13:47

General Battuta: Feb 7, 2011; This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

chthonic bell posted:

Speaking of feedback. I'm still looking for crits.

When you log line/elevator pitch your story, tell me who the protagonist is, what they want, and why they can't get it. Or something else that gets at the conflict of the story.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 14:24

Hocus Pocus: Sep 7, 2011

Writing critiques for all of last week's submissions was a really positive experience. Definitely plan to make critiquing a regular thing.

From the lower rung stories I repeatedly saw issues with clarity, clunkiness in the prose/rhythm, and the writer not knowing what made their story interesting. So, to then get similar feedback for my own submission, I feel like I could better frame and understand it.

Like when Bad Seafood says it needed to be sillier, or Thranguy says there's too much figurative language, it clicks, because I have just recognized those same issues in the work of others, and how/why it was to their detriment.

In my mind there weren't many of the lower rung stories that couldn't have been improved pretty significantly, just by reading them out loud and editing for rhythm and grammar.

The top rung stories are a bit more aspirational - I can identify what worked, and what I liked, but to reach that I think will take a lot more refinement and practice than, say, cutting back on using unnecessary metaphors.

PS: judges didn't know what 'Buckley's' meant (fair enough - I didn't consider it being just an Aus thing) - if someone says "you've got Buckley's" or "you've got Buckley's or none", it's an Australian expression that means you've got little/no chance.

Eg: "So Nick told me he's gonna apply to the federal police."
"Nick? That dickhead? He's got fuckin' Buckley's, mate."

(PS: big thanks for the crits Thranguy, Bad Seafood, and Djeser, I appreciate it.)

# ? Jun 11, 2015 14:29

painted bird: Oct 18, 2013; by Lowtax

General Battuta posted:

When you log line/elevator pitch your story, tell me who the protagonist is, what they want, and why they can't get it. Or something else that gets at the conflict of the story.

Is an elevator pitch necessary when I'm just asking for crits? :ohdear:

# ? Jun 11, 2015 14:47

General Battuta: Feb 7, 2011; This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

You are asking for people to read your story, so you want to make it interesting.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 14:49

blue squares: Sep 28, 2007

General Battuta posted:

You are asking for people to read your story, so you want to make it interesting. I opened your thread and closed it because I wasn't interested in the pitch.

General Butt answered before I could. You described your story by saying what the setting is. The minute I read that, I had a good suspicion that it would be bad. Because if the most important thing you can think of to tell a potential reader is the setting, your story is boring.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 14:50

painted bird: Oct 18, 2013; by Lowtax

I didn't think I had to do an elevator pitch if I was asking for crits, so I didn't bother. ~~Guess I'll go fix that!~~

EDIT: All right, elevator pitch added.

painted bird fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Jun 11, 2015

# ? Jun 11, 2015 15:04

General Battuta: Feb 7, 2011; This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

That's awesome! Much stronger.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 15:09

painted bird: Oct 18, 2013; by Lowtax

blue squares posted:

The minute I read that, I had a good suspicion that it would be bad. Because if the most important thing you can think of to tell a potential reader is the setting, your story is boring.

It'd be helpful if you actually gave crit, if you think my writing is bad.

If you don't want to, that's okay, you don't have to. But making PA comments like this and then shitposting in my gdoc is just crass, IMO.

General Battuta posted:

That's awesome! Much stronger.

Okay, rad! Thank you for the advice.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 16:58

blue squares: Sep 28, 2007

chthonic bell posted:

It'd be helpful if you actually gave crit, if you think my writing is bad.

If you don't want to, that's okay, you don't have to. But making PA comments like this and then shitposting in my gdoc is just crass, IMO.

I did give you advice. I told you why your description of your story sucked. Maybe you weren't trying to sell someone on the idea, but you should still think about why General Battuta and I both had the same reaction. Why did you choose to give a line about the setting instead of the characters? A story in which the setting is the most important factor is not an interesting story.

blue squares fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Jun 11, 2015

# ? Jun 11, 2015 17:53

take the moon: Feb 13, 2011; by sebmojo

thats a lot of posting and i appreciate the additional critting. if it doesnt feel like im paying attn to crits from now on just ban me from td i guess. i would like to keep trying

ill do the homework at some point today

# ? Jun 11, 2015 18:12

take the moon: Feb 13, 2011; by sebmojo

i know everyones patience is prolly wearing thin (or disappeared completely), ill at least take a break from thunderdome this week (aside from the loserbrawl). it does really mean a lot to me and id like to keep doing it, and all i can do is promise to read every crit carefully, with the understanding i may not get many crits after this whole thing.

homework here cuz im not sure where it should be posted.

Shallas
199 words

Shallas, priest of Ta�av, entered the world in a naturally formed cave on the side of Ur Mountain. His parents told him, once he could understand, the importance of being close to Ta�av.

Ta�av spoke to him in the form of smoke signals rising from the mountain�s apex. The other children would say �Ta�av sure is angry today,� but Shallas knew there was more meaning to it. He would sit in the village square to get a better look, and while the others played and danced he would record the length and frequency of each smoke burst on any scrap of paper that he could find.

Finally the papers bundled together were the thickness of the village geneology. By this time Shallas was thin and hunched over from the weight of the years. But Ta�av had finally invited him to climb Ur Mountain, and he did so, though the jagged edges and harsh winds were enough to frighten away even the young and strong.

There he saw a single scrap of paper covered in ash, an ember slowly burning it away. He fed his bundle to the fire and watched it rise again, and died as Ta�av was reborn.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 18:39

angel opportunity: Sep 7, 2004; Total Eclipse of the Heart

spectres of autism posted:

thats a lot of posting and i appreciate the additional critting. if it doesnt feel like im paying attn to crits from now on just ban me from td i guess. i would like to keep trying

ill do the homework at some point today

sounds good! much better attitude

# ? Jun 11, 2015 19:00

Sitting Here: Dec 31, 2007

spectres of autism posted:

i know everyones patience is prolly wearing thin (or disappeared completely), ill at least take a break from thunderdome this week (aside from the loserbrawl). it does really mean a lot to me and id like to keep doing it, and all i can do is promise to read every crit carefully, with the understanding i may not get many crits after this whole thing.

homework here cuz im not sure where it should be posted.

Shallas
199 words

Shallas, priest of Ta�av, entered the world in a naturally formed cave on the side of Ur Mountain. His parents told him, once he could understand, the importance of being close to Ta�av.

Ta�av spoke to him in the form of smoke signals rising from the mountain�s apex. The other children would say �Ta�av sure is angry today,� but Shallas knew there was more meaning to it. He would sit in the village square to get a better look, and while the others played and danced he would record the length and frequency of each smoke burst on any scrap of paper that he could find.

Finally the papers bundled together were the thickness of the village geneology. By this time Shallas was thin and hunched over from the weight of the years. But Ta�av had finally invited him to climb Ur Mountain, and he did so, though the jagged edges and harsh winds were enough to frighten away even the young and strong.

There he saw a single scrap of paper covered in ash, an ember slowly burning it away. He fed his bundle to the fire and watched it rise again, and died as Ta�av was reborn.

Hey, I just wanted to pop by and say that I'm pleased by this. Your stuff tends to be very nebulous and abstract, and while I really like a lot of your concepts, I can't always follow them. But this, I understand completely. And it's because you use details that are easy for me to picture. I have a sense of your character. Pls do more of whatever you did here in TD.

Well done, Mr. Specters O'Tism

# ? Jun 11, 2015 19:40

magnificent7: Sep 22, 2005; THUNDERDOME LOSER

crabrock posted:

DOGPILE ON THAT MOTHERFUCKER

When will THIS be a theme for TD I am asking

# ? Jun 12, 2015 00:30

SkaAndScreenplays: Dec 11, 2013; by Pragmatica

The following is a bunch of :words:

most of which I barely remember writing. I'm not sure what happened, I just sort of unloaded a bunch of brain stuffs that I'm not sure. I think in all honesty the words below are the cognitive equivalent to file recovery or some poo poo with computers.

General Battuta posted:

When you log line/elevator pitch your story, tell me who the protagonist is, what they want, and why they can't get it. Or something else that gets at the conflict of the story.

IIRC pretty much every industry source I've read says that your elevator pitch is JUST AS IF NOT MORE IMPORTANT/i] than your actual manuscript/spec as it is a microcosm of your storytelling ability. If your characters and plot can't make a 2/5/10/15 minute interview/100 words worth of query letter engaging how can anyone expect it to fill 2 hours/50k words?

Knowing this I plan on packaging any crit requests on SA with as strong a pitch as I can muster. Feel free to tear me apart on the same points that I while be bringing up below.

FAKEEDITREALTALK: I've jumped all over the place writing this reply...and got carried away with it, it's just something I care about and ...I am willing to admit that this is either probably pretentious, condescending, or contrived/cliche bullshit, but that's what you get out me when I'm running on low sleep (deliberately) and time-release amphetamine salts. (legally prescribed and taken only as directed(seriously)).

Look at writing industry standards for submission/review.
Manuscript - First 250 Words...Roughly 10% of your first chapter and likely a smaller percentage of your total book.
Spec Script - First 10 Pages...7-10% of a feature length depending on format.
Short Story - I'm wholly unfamiliar as to how publications/mags screen the submissions they receive. You've probably don't have much more than a one-liner similar to a Thunderdome prompt to get them to read your first paragraph, and that first paragraph is all you have to impress them.
Editorial - Headline and first 1-3 paragraphs
List Format Article - Headline/List Name, List Item Excerpt (Cracked is a good place to pick up on editorial techniques)
Buzzfeed - List Title and first 10 entries (5-15 words)

chthonic bell posted:
It'd be helpful if you actually gave crit, if you think my writing is bad.
If you don't want to, that's okay, you don't have to. But making PA comments like this and then shitposting in my gdoc is just crass, IMO.

No one is going to mince(<- possible homophone error?) words here, which is why it's better than most of the critiques you'll find on the internet...especially social media. Squares' "passive aggressive" comment was legitimate feedback that was taken by you as an attack on your character. I think people ~~Your elevator pitch sucks, and I agree that it does not bode well for the 3k words that come after it~~. I openly admit that the fiction I've posted here has been mostly received as poo poo, Pitches are all sales and marketing and I'm definitely strong in that arena. <-The strike through here is because after reading through the post. If it offends you you're well within your rights to be offended, before committing to that though remember that when goons post here they aren't chasing fake internet points (likes/favorites/reblogs/mentions/retweets/etc) and they're not afraid to discuss who is wrong and why. Glancing at your first chapter...episode you've got some...not quite all...of my bad... writing habits...from before ... quit writing out of...frustration at my financial/computer situation. One of them stands out the most. Also I lack subtlety, Ellipses aren't commas.

Here's a breakdown of my beef with the pitch.

quote:
It is summer. The city of Wurmwald, so recently called Chervey, bakes in the oppressive heat and languishes under the colonial rule of the brutal Ormic Empire. There is unrest in the streets and chaos in the Parliament.
Every time I read this line it manages to get worse. This first sentence adds nothing of value to your product. I'm too polite to not let you finish...but no bullshit this pitch became background noise after 'It is.' I'm not going to just leave you hanging at 'It's bad' (it''s bad, but not hopeless) so here's my input as to what's wrong with your pitch...and some ideas on how to make it fit the p

"It is Summer" - "Who Cares"
I'm not a passive voice fascist...there are times and places to use it but never when you're trying to hype someone on something. Who cares? I have no clue how this affects any of your characters because I haven't met them yet.

Out Of Context Geographical Information
City Of Wurmwald - Abstract names are worthless out of context. Don't waste syllables on fluff when you're cutting into the downtime of someone who doesn't know you. Personally I'd guess the story was an adapted home-brew D&D campaign.
"unrest in the streets" - Is information for a bigger pitch.
Biggest Gripes
[i]so recently languishes under the colonial rule...Ormic Empire...Parliament - Again Names. You play the empire/government as an antagonist but when you describe it as a setting and not a force of injustice/brutality it still just white noise to me.

quote:

The Menelik twins � beautiful, bewitching Anzu and his wry, one-eyed sister Siris � arrive in Wurmwald amid this tumult. They flee a brutal hunter who wants more than just their lives. The twins are changelings, descendants of a powerful, immortal being and there are many uses for a changeling�s Flesh and Spirit. The hunter is relentless, merciless and almost mythic in reputation. What hope do the twins have against him?

We found the information you wanted us to give a poo poo about but it's buried under a mess of erroneous information, and suffers from weak voice because of that. If there were any coherent sequence to this blurb it would make a great log line after just a tiny bit of retooling.

EDIT: You cleaned this up quite a bit later. All in all it's a lot better and I'll address it later.

quote:

More than the hunter knows. With the reluctant help of Xomael Kagan, a writer of pulp horror, and Mogila Molotova, a novice witch, the twins plot to face their pursuer and turn the tables on him. But will this fragile alliance survive after the truth of the twins� past comes to light? After all, one does not attract the attention of a hunter without an interesting life �

We don't care about the hunter enough yet to worry about dramatic Irony.
Names Again

Oh poo poo, I spent like 4-5 Hours on this possible poo poo post. I've still got Thunderdome/poo poo To Do. Why did I do that?
:goatdrugs:

Sleep Deprivation and Amphetamines An Odd Mix. :goatdrugs:

These are Legal..I mentioned earlier because I'm afraid of judgement. I'm not [url=http://www.peterharrington.co.uk/rare-books/english-literature-pre-1900/the-posthumous-papers-of-the-pickwick-club-34/]doing lines off of 17th Century Classics Like I imagine UK Bookgoons do daily.
While all of the above is technically true the honest answer is I as a writer want to learn, and grow, and poo poo talk, and brawl with all of you and steal all the followers of the countless self indulgent Writing Tips/Thinly Veiled Fanfic/Borderline Plagiarism blogs that litter Tumblr.

I had planned on linking a specific blog but decided that would have been a dick move. I've stopped advice blogging until I improve and can put my money where my mouth is.

That's a bit better of a post.
Honestly you should have seen the mess this thing was. I'd imagine it peaked at about 5k words and was just a mess.
It still a mess but at least it makes sense.

SkaAndScreenplays fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Jun 12, 2015

# ? Jun 12, 2015 04:13

General Battuta: Feb 7, 2011; This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

but also it's true, when you are trying to sell your novel most agents will expect to reject you after the first three paragraphs of your query letter. They won't even look at your manuscript.

You need to win them over in those three paragraphs. It's an art. I recommend reading a lot of QueryShark.

# ? Jun 12, 2015 04:24

Cast_No_Shadow: Jun 8, 2010; The Republic of Luna Equestria is a huge, socially progressive nation, notable for its punitive income tax rates. Its compassionate, cynical population of 714m are ruled with an iron fist by the dictatorship government, which ensures that no-one outside the party gets too rich.

Hi forums user Spectres of Autism. I've been catching up with the writing threads here in the creative convention and I've read a lot of your work recently. I think your stories have good ideas and you can create interesting concepts that I'd like to be explored more.

However, I get frustrated when you lose these ideas behind superfluous crap that adds nothing to the core idea and makes understanding more difficult.

Please never let something you think is cool get in the way of meaning and understanding.

That said, I thought your last post in this thread and your loser brawl were much better. There's still a long way to go but now I know whats happening and that's just gravy. I'm enjoying watching you get better, so please keep getting better.

# ? Jun 12, 2015 08:54

angel opportunity: Sep 7, 2004; Total Eclipse of the Heart

my new sig:

# ? Jun 12, 2015 15:37

painted bird: Oct 18, 2013; by Lowtax

SkaAndScreenplays posted:

I really appreciate the parts of this post that are useful feedback, but also a good chunk of it looks like my brain off antipsychotics and it's making me laugh really hard.

I read some articles on this elevator pitch business, came up with a logline and reworked my pitch and I'd like feedback on this poo poo, please!

Logline posted:

In a brutal empire, former necromancers flee a bounty hunter.

Elevator pitch posted:

Two former death cultists and necromancers arrive in a city languishing under a colonial regime, fleeing a brutal bounty hunter who wants more than just their lives. The Menelik twins -- beautiful, bewitching Anzu and his wry, one-eyed sister Siris -- are changelings, descendants of a mortal man and an immortal shoggot. There are many uses for such a creature's Flesh and Spirit. The twins' dark past has marked them out as undesirables, beyond the protection of the law and unlikely to be missed should they be harvested. The bounty hunter is merciless, relentless and almost mythic in reputation. Amid the political tumult of the sweltering city, what hope do they have against him?

More than the hunter counts on. With the help of Xomael Kagan, a sickly writer of pulp horror and homoerotic bodice-rippers, and Mogila Molotova, a novice witch and factory union member, the twins plot to face their adversary and turn the tables on him. But will this fragile alliance and Xomael's growing affection for the foppish Anzu survive when the truth of the twins' past deeds comes to light?

# ? Jun 12, 2015 16:56

blue squares: Sep 28, 2007

More than just their lives is vague. What is the more?

# ? Jun 12, 2015 17:09

painted bird: Oct 18, 2013; by Lowtax

The hunter wants to incapacitate the twins and sell them to people who'll render their bodies and souls down to their magical and biological components, but I'm not sure how to snappily word that.

Also, I'm sorry for being snide at you earlier, I was in a bad mood and I have some trouble with understanding what's a joke and what's an attack on me.

EDIT: Is "affection" too vague? How do I make it clear it's a romantic thing? If it were a straight relationship, that'd be easy and I think "affection" would do, but people tend to interpret gay poo poo as ~just good friends~ way more often.

painted bird fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Jun 12, 2015

# ? Jun 12, 2015 17:10

crabrock: Aug 2, 2002; I

AM

MAGNIFICENT

u guys

# ? Jun 12, 2015 17:37

angel opportunity: Sep 7, 2004; Total Eclipse of the Heart

I think how you handled the gay relationship was the most successful part of your opening

# ? Jun 12, 2015 17:40

painted bird: Oct 18, 2013; by Lowtax

Thank you! I'm glad, because writing gay romance without coming off like third-rate fanfiction is pretty hard. Still, the gay romance is part of the hook of the story and I'd like to make it clear in the elevator pitch.

# ? Jun 12, 2015 18:10

SkaAndScreenplays: Dec 11, 2013; by Pragmatica

General Battuta posted:

but also it's true, when you are trying to sell your novel most agents will expect to reject you after the first three paragraphs of your query letter. They won't even look at your manuscript.

You need to win them over in those three paragraphs. It's an art. I recommend reading a lot of QueryShark.

Yes...this is definitely true as well.

You need to hook them as soon as possible. Agents are the risk takers so you need to sell them on stories...not style.

Elevator Pitch posted:

Two former ~~death cultists~~ and necromancers arrive in a city languishing under a colonial regime, fleeing a brutal bounty hunter ~~who wants more than just their lives~~. The Menelik twins ~~beautiful, bewitching Anzu and his wry, one-eyed sister Siris --~~ are changelings, descendants of a mortal man and an immortal shoggot. ~~There are many uses for such a creature's Flesh and Spirit.~~ The twins' dark past has marked them out as undesirables, beyond the protection of the law and unlikely to be missed should they be harvested. The bounty hunter is merciless, relentless and almost mythic in reputation. Amid the political ~~tumult~~ of the sweltering city, what hope do they have against him?

~~More than the hunter counts on.~~ With the help of ~~Xomael Kagan,~~ a sickly writer of pulp horror and homoerotic bodice-rippers, and ~~Mogila Molotova~~ a novice witch who (does something) at a (steam dildo/changeling leather/bondage gear)Factory, the twins plot to face their adversary and turn the tables on ~~him.~~ But will this fragile alliance ~~and Xomael's growing affection for the foppish Anzu survive~~ when the truth of the twins' past deeds comes to light?

Much better, but always look at this and think "What can I make stronger?"

~~death cultists~~ - More info without context. Most people know and understand what a necromancer is...but Death Cult flips the Fanfic alarm in my brain.
fleeing a brutal bounty hunter The bounty hunter is merciless, relentless and almost mythic in reputation<- I like that you're trying to play up the threat of the bounty hunter, but don't break it up. Keep character's and their relevant conflicts together. The city isn't the primary threat to the twins the Hunter is. Put these two together.
~~who wants more than just their lives~~Erroneous - The bounty hunter's traits are handled by brutal/mythic/etc.

If you insist on the whole 'Changeling Flesh/Spirit' has value, incorporate it somewhere else. I have a feeling it's pretty important to you as it's always included, but you're not tying it into any of the character's motivations.
EX. The Menelik Twins are changelings, hybrid beings who are killed (cause they taste good, make great sex dolls, are made of potion ingredients, for their vital/herbal essence)
Use it to establish the conflict between the twins and the hunter and highlight the indifference/brutality of the Empire. It's good information that has context...but the context isn't clear based on where you have it.

Do not ask questions of the reader outside of your manuscript. Maybe on a dust cover, which I think this has more potential as. Make those questions statements to add confidence.
"poo poo Seems Hopeless"
"The twin's secrets could totally gently caress with their alliance bruh"

~~and Xomael's growing affection for the foppish Anzu survive~~ <- If this is not erotica do not include romantic themes in your promotional materials at the risk of being lumped into that mess.

~~tumult~~ <- gently caress this Word I hate this word when used as a noun especially at the end of a sentence. That's just me though. It sits just below 'kind' on the list of words that I don't like.

No one cares about spoilers in any of the promotion this would be used on. None of the things you're being vague about should be treated this way.

SkaAndScreenplays fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Jun 12, 2015

# ? Jun 12, 2015 18:26

crabrock: Aug 2, 2002; I

AM

MAGNIFICENT

you are trolling this thread, and there's no way I will ever not believe that.

# ? Jun 12, 2015 18:28

SkaAndScreenplays: Dec 11, 2013; by Pragmatica

crabrock posted:

you are trolling this thread, and there's no way I will ever not believe that.

If so I'm going to be pissed. I wasted thunderdome time if that's the case.

Having a website (wordpress) was a masterstroke of trolling.

# ? Jun 12, 2015 18:30

SkaAndScreenplays: Dec 11, 2013; by Pragmatica

I have very little faith that this is not trolling.
CRABROCK is probably right.
Or worse...fan fiction.

angel opportunity posted:

my new sig:

Do it.

EDIT: Was being a dick...am aware of it...am sorry.

SkaAndScreenplays fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Jun 13, 2015

# ? Jun 12, 2015 18:39

painted bird: Oct 18, 2013; by Lowtax

Why do you think I'm trolling? :raise:

# ? Jun 12, 2015 18:44

Megazver: Jan 13, 2006

SkaAndScreenplays posted:

If so I'm going to be pissed. I wasted thunderdome time if that's the case.

Having a website (wordpress) was a masterstroke of trolling.

# ? Jun 12, 2015 19:02

anime was right: Jun 27, 2008; death is certain
keep yr cool

im going to take advice from the guy who is actually accomplished itt

# ? Jun 12, 2015 19:09

crabrock: Aug 2, 2002; I

AM

MAGNIFICENT

I'm Ska making a forums post:

# ? Jun 12, 2015 19:41

angel opportunity: Sep 7, 2004; Total Eclipse of the Heart

crabrock posted:

I'm Ska making a forums post:

# ? Jun 12, 2015 19:44

anime was right: Jun 27, 2008; death is certain
keep yr cool

crabrock posted:

I'm Ska making a forums post:

# ? Jun 12, 2015 19:47

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 15, 2024 02:37

painted bird: Oct 18, 2013; by Lowtax

I'm self-publishing (on a model based on how webcomics are published online), so this is more "blurb" than "query letter". In case that clears up some things and makes my aims clearer. Still, there's probably no need to withhold key plot points that are not supposed to be plot twists.

Anyway. The actual pitch. Two versions, one with the romance B-plot woven in and one that doesn't mention it at all:

version one posted:

The Menelik twins are former necromancers, fleeing a bounty hunter who has pursued them across half a continent. He has cornered them in Wurmwald, a city languishing under a brutal colonial regime. The twins -- beautiful, bewitching Anzu and his wry, irreverent sister Siris -- are changelings, descendants of a mortal man and an immortal shoggot. Their Flesh and Spirit are valuable magical components, priceless to any alchemist unscrupulous enough to make use of them. The twins' dark past has marked them out as outcasts, beyond the protection of the law and unlikely to be missed should they be harvested. The bounty hunter is merciless, relentless and almost mythic in reputation, with a coterie of frightful spirits in his command. With help from neither the powers that be nor the witches and sorcerers of the land, the twins have little chance of escaping him.

But there is hope. With the unlikely assistance of a sickly writer of homoerotic gothic horror and a factory girl who dabbles in herbalism and fortune-telling, the twins scheme to face their adversary and turn the tables. But the alliance is precarious. The writer's growing affection for the foppish, languid Anzu is young and delicate. The truth of the twins' former lives may prove too much and shatter the brittle bonds they have forged.

version two posted:

The Menelik twins are former necromancers, fleeing a bounty hunter who has pursued them across half a continent. He has cornered them in Wurmwald, a city languishing under a brutal colonial regime. The twins are changelings, descendants of a mortal man and an immortal shoggot. Their Flesh and Spirit are valuable magical components, priceless to any alchemist unscrupulous enough to make use of them. The twins' dark past has marked them out as outcasts, beyond the protection of the law and unlikely to be missed should they be harvested. The bounty hunter is merciless, relentless and almost mythic in reputation, with a coterie of frightful spirits in his command. With help from neither the powers that be nor the witches and sorcerers of the land, the twins have little chance of escaping him.

But there is hope. With the unlikely assistance of a sickly writer of homoerotic gothic horror and a factory girl who dabbles in herbalism and fortune-telling, the twins scheme to face their adversary and turn the tables. But the alliance is precarious. The truth of the twins' former lives may prove too much and shatter the brittle bonds they have forged.

# ? Jun 12, 2015 19:48

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > Fiction Writing: Advice and Discussion

«‹›187 »