World of Darkness Megathread: Curse of the Were-Poster

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Mr.Morgenstern: Sep 14, 2012

Mormon Star Wars posted:

Demons co-opt free will. If you sell your sole to a demon, you aren't free anymore.

Yeah, if you sell your sole, it's an absolute pain to walk anywhere.

# ? Jun 12, 2015 05:48

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# ? May 8, 2024 21:25

Loomer: Dec 19, 2007; A Very Special Hell

Mors Rattus posted:

So where do the crazed Nazi Tzimisce fit in there?

Because that was a thing.

Really, in general the Tzimisce confuse me because they are at once extremely specific body horror vampires from this one short story, and also Eastern European voivode Dracula types.

They fall into the first category most of the time, and sometimes the second. Really, metamorphosist Tzimisce are almost their own faction in the scheme of things - they just lack the effective force and will of the main ones I outlined. You could put them in with the 'I'm just here because you gotta be somewhere and this is where my VampireDad was' group, I suppose, since they often have very little care for the Sabbat except on paper.

# ? Jun 12, 2015 05:53

Mormon Star Wars: Aug 13, 2005; It's a minotaur race...

Kai Tave posted:

I admit I'm not really sure how one follows the other, here.

Demons co-opt free will. If you sell your soul* to a demon, you aren't free anymore.

edit: I am making hella word errors this week, dang.

# ? Jun 12, 2015 05:54

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

My rather limited experience with the Sabbat is one of the NPCs in the Rage Across Australia storyline that's a 'friendly' Sabbat with piercings covering his face... over which he has stretched the skin of someone else's face.

The player's pack are meant to follow him back to the Sabbat lair and parley with the Sabbat Archbishop of Australia in a joint strike against Pentex that most assuredly isn't one sided, though surprisingly they don't get stabbed in the back.

# ? Jun 12, 2015 06:06

Precambrian: Apr 30, 2008

I like to imagine Cheiron's board is, like, a vampire, a mage, Yog-Sothoth, and two humans. They all hate each other and they are all very, very rich. As long as the shareholders get a return on their investment, you can be whatever the hell you are.

I thought of an interesting situation for a Beast-Hero relationship. Let's imagine our Beast, Juan, who punishes corrupt cops. Easy enough to find prey, there are plenty of racist cops and border patrol he can feed on. But then, one of his targets, Earl, surprises him. Earl's a Beast, too, a Tyrant who feeds on the feelings of powerlessness he inspires among Mexicans he can bully and threaten. He mostly sticks to drug smugglers, but, as far as his racist rear end is concerned, most of them are drug smugglers or job stealers or just suspicious enough for him to harass. Earl and Juan may hate each other, but they're Family, so they make a truce. Earl realizes he's heard of Juan, though--his partner's been having nightmares about a Mexican who hunts him to the ends of the earth. And Juan realizes that the nightmares his wife, one of Earl's victims, has been having aren't just a result of ordinary trauma. They're becoming Heroes. So, does Juan team up with his wife against Earl? Or does he realize that she'll inevitably become a threat to him because Heroes can't be reasonable?

# ? Jun 12, 2015 06:14

Loomer: Dec 19, 2007; A Very Special Hell

Checking some oChangeling content to correct some inaccuracies in the Project files. I forgot how much I feel disappointed by the huge Irish element of the damned setting. Why have half the setting revolve around a bunch of Irish-originated fae and then just go with a sort of generic medieval fantasy bullshit for their every interaction?

# ? Jun 12, 2015 08:01

jagadaishio: Jun 25, 2013; I don't care if it's ethical; I want a Mammoth Steak.

Yawgmoth posted:

The way I've seen it justified has usually been "act the Humanity score you want to have". So if you want to get your Humanity above 4, stop murdering people.

"Fake it until you make it."

# ? Jun 12, 2015 12:24

Flavivirus: Dec 14, 2011; The next stage of evolution.

New post up for C:tL 2E on court creation: http://theonyxpath.com/changeling-the-lost-second-edition-court-creation-and-toronto/

The big thing is that the seasonal courts have been relegated to an example rather than the default. Instead every freehold has its own way of holding back the true fae, based on local myths and legends. I'm a big fan. Also, a court's advantage is that their chosen Approach - fighting, researching, celebrating etc - narrows down the ways huntsmen can attack them;

quote:

For example, an Autumn courtier in the seasonal courts fights back by embracing the occult and mastering contracts and the oneiros. Abiding Autumn's Approach, a Huntsman is not likely to challenge her to a duel with pistols or ambush her in the dark and drag her off by force. Instead, the Huntsman may torment her in her dreams before challenging her to a mystical duel.

As you increase the power of your own story/court mantle you also pick up personal Approaches that further limit the ways in which you can be challenged.

It also looks like Huntsmen have some sort of currency called Yearning, and these Approaches are incentivised by giving the Huntsmen Yearning when they play along with them. I've very interested in finding out what their deal is.

# ? Jun 12, 2015 16:16

Luminous Obscurity: Jan 10, 2007; "The instrument you know as a piano was once called a pianoforte, because it can play both loud and quiet notes."

One thing I love is that the example Court is such an odd concept. Rather than go with the more by the book stuff like Seasons or Day/Night (which it looks like will be covered in the locations section), the book gives you an idea of just how weird and creative you can get with it. "A town's industries" is not something I would have ever imagined as a Court structure, but dang if it's not interesting.

Also whittling the "emotional" Contracts down to a single Contract with multiple facets like the Elemental Contracts is a great idea.

Still working my way through the Toronto stuff, but it looks pretty cool so far!

Flavivirus posted:

It also looks like Huntsmen have some sort of currency called Yearning, and these Approaches are incentivised by giving the Huntsmen Yearning when they play along with them. I've very interested in finding out what their deal is.

I'm really curious about Huntsmen now. I don't want to jinx it, but I'm starting think they're going to wind up being pretty cool.

# ? Jun 12, 2015 17:35

spectralent: Oct 1, 2014; Me and the boys poppin' down to the shops

I'm a little mollified with the hints they're more than just Loyalists or Freebooters, yeah.

# ? Jun 12, 2015 17:38

Arashiofordo3: Nov 5, 2010; Warning, Internet
may prove lethal.

Flavivirus posted:

New post up for C:tL 2E on court creation: http://theonyxpath.com/changeling-the-lost-second-edition-court-creation-and-toronto/

The big thing is that the seasonal courts have been relegated to an example rather than the default. Instead every freehold has its own way of holding back the true fae, based on local myths and legends. I'm a big fan. Also, a court's advantage is that their chosen Approach - fighting, researching, celebrating etc - narrows down the ways huntsmen can attack them;

As you increase the power of your own story/court mantle you also pick up personal Approaches that further limit the ways in which you can be challenged.

It also looks like Huntsmen have some sort of currency called Yearning, and these Approaches are incentivised by giving the Huntsmen Yearning when they play along with them. I've very interested in finding out what their deal is.

I'm even more physced than ever for this game. It's looking even more interesting as time goes on. Especially after the disappointment of Beast. Seems Changeling is just the thing to wash that bad taste out of my mouth.

# ? Jun 12, 2015 17:46

Tezzor: Jul 29, 2013; Can't post for 3 years!

It's give to be harder than they think to remove the "beasts are like marginalized groups and heroes are like crazy bigots" angle because it's the only thing holding up the "beasts are the good guys" angle

# ? Jun 12, 2015 18:53

unseenlibrarian: Jun 4, 2012; There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.

I sort of reflexively twitched at the mention of Seelie and Unseelie in the creation example because of OWOD Changeling trauma, but the whole thing is solid and I want the rest of the industry courts because my last Changeling character was a an old time communist who went by Joe Hill and had deranged plans to unionize the workforce of Arcadia. (Workers of the Otherworld, unite.)

# ? Jun 12, 2015 18:58

Rand Brittain: Mar 25, 2013; "Go on until you're stopped."

Tezzor posted:

It's give to be harder than they think to remove the "beasts are like marginalized groups and heroes are like crazy bigots" angle because it's the only thing holding up the "beasts are the good guys" angle

Based on Matt's comments, it seems like he thinks "Beasts are monstrous" is the more important tent pole to keep.

I feel like this is going to be really hard to fit with the idea that Beast is crossover-friendly.

# ? Jun 12, 2015 19:08

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
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We'll see what happens. At least he's gotten that major changes are needed desperately.

# ? Jun 12, 2015 19:15

Androc: Dec 26, 2008

I second the new changeling stuff looking really interesting. A few things that jump out:

It goes significantly farther than 1e in codifying HOW the courts protect changelings from the true fae, in a way that makes it easier to use as a plot element.
Related to the above, every court seems to get something called 'talespinning' as a favored contract. Between that and the way courts integrate stories, it looks like a lot of the stuff about narratives that only emerged in later books is continued to be more fully integrated in the new core. Which is cool.
Conspiracy-tier changeling: Possibly a thing.
quote:
As the Seasonal and Seelie courts exist on an international scale it'd be impossible to destroy the courts simply by wiping out its members in Toronto, but both freeholds have come and gone multiple times in the course of their wars.

# ? Jun 12, 2015 22:04

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

Update from BHM

quote:

Heya, Matt here.

So, first of all, I want to thank all (as of this writing) 1,147 folks who have backed Beast. Your support means everything to the project, not just in the form of your hard-earned cash, but also in the form of the comments and discussion here. It�s been a real pleasure to watch people talk about Beast, analyze it in terms of media, discuss what Dark Eras would be cool, and plan out the characters they want to make.

But not all Beast discussion has been quite so positive, and I want to talk about that. Stay with me a minute.

With Beast, we tried doing a bunch of things differently. Some of those things were purely mechanical; the game doesn�t have a �fuel trait� the way our other games do, for instance, nor does its Integrity analogue function the way that other such traits do. Moreover, it was always our intention to take a light touch with Beast �society;� I didn�t want the same kind of structure that, say, Vampire or Changeling uses. The Hero/Beast dynamic, too, came out differently than I was intending.

The result of that is the game has some issues. If you�ve followed discussion of the game on various online forums, you�ve probably seen it. I�m not going to repeat every point, here, mostly in the interests of time (I�ve got a development pass to get started on!), but here�s the gist: We hear you. There are problems with the game as it stands. Some of those problems come from the fact that we did try and break some new ground on the game, and that always carries a chance of something coming out different that one planned. Some of it just the nature of game development; at this stage of the process, things are getting tweaked. The difference is that it�s more public than it�s ever been. And some of it is that, honestly, when you�re as close to the material as I and the other writers have been, it�s easy to lose perspective.

Of course, the game hasn�t been received wholly negatively. I�ve had the pleasure of watching folks who really like the game talk about their inspirations, their character ideas, and the mechanical innovations we�ve made. We�ve heard those voices, too, and as we move forward, we�re listening to the positive feedback as well as the criticism.

What all that means is this: I�m doing another development pass on Beast. I�m going to add about 15,000 words of text (give or take), and do some heavy revision on parts of the game. My plan is to have that done by next Friday, June 19, but if that changes during the week, I�ll let you know. As I revise chapters, I�m going to give them to Rose to link from the Kickstarter, and I�ll be putting them up on Google Drive and doing posts on the Onyx Path blog so you can see what we�re doing.

Here�s a quick list of the overarching things we�re addressing. Note that I�m enumerating specific changes here (that is, I�m saying what we�re changing but not how), because I�m still compiling my notes and making a plan.

� Resolving the �are you born a Beast or not?� question.

� Defining Beast culture; we�re not adding social splats, but we are giving Beast society some structure and giving Storytellers something more to work with (this is where a lot of the extra word count is going)

� Further definition of the Primordial Dream, its relationship to Beasts and Heroes, and what you can do with it in play (this is where a lot of the rest of the word count is going)

� Hand in hand with that point, we�re underlining Beast-on-Beast conflict more

� Redefining the Beast/Hero relationship, and (more to the point), revising how the text treats Heroes

� Looking at the crossover sections and making sure they reflect the other game lines well, and that they get across our intent with making Beast crossover friendly

� Making sure that in-character opinions are clearly reflected as such; all of the World of Darkness games include unreliable narrators, but it�s important (especially for a new game) that the reader understands what the game assumes to be true and what a character within the game assumes to be true

� Giving Beasts something specific to do. That was definitely the most exciting part of the meeting that we had last night. I think you�ll like it. It addresses one of the biggest points of criticism we�ve had, which is that a Beast sating its Hunger is pretty much just cruel and abusive for the sake of it. I want characters in my game to be monstrous; they�re Beasts, after all. But I want there to be a point.

There are other, minor revisions that�ll happen, too, most of them logical outgrowths of the list above. Stay tuned, watch this space, and thank you for all your feedback. This is going to make for an intense week for me, but I�m excited to do the work.

Watch this space (regardless of what space you�re seeing this on, it�ll at least get linked) for more information, and again, thank you for your support and your feedback. Criticism stings, but it teaches a lesson.

And that�s an appropriate note to end on, I think.

Looks like he's understands where the major problems are, just hope he fixes them in the right direction and doesn't double down on turning Heroes into dudes covered in beast skulls and black leather.

# ? Jun 12, 2015 22:17

spectralent: Oct 1, 2014; Me and the boys poppin' down to the shops

That's really nice and good of him. I am more hopeful than I was. I wish we could have done it without the "Yes but if you say that, have you considered, that you are the Hero?" stuff, but, good it's getting done. There might be something to Beast I actually want to play!

And he is technically right; beasts are way too strong, at the moment, but the thing about their power stat also being their behavioural quirk stat is cool (in general, GMC has done much cooler things with the behaviour stat than it's old "you get a slap on the wrist for killing people" function).

# ? Jun 12, 2015 22:41

Crion: Sep 30, 2004; baseball.

Changing the text so it doesn't cheerlead the splat's instances of real world abuse is a good thing, but not a significant thing if the revision doesn't change that the core mechanic the game functions off of is the infliction of real world abuse. Probably still passing on this mess.

edit: Hey I found three more Beast character concepts.

quote:

Union Buster: One hundred years ago, vibrant workers unions dominated the mining industry. Though the mines and unions are gone, the Huntsmen still have an open Approach in the form of attacking the courtier�s alliances. A Huntsman gains a point of Yearning when it manipulates the character�s employer to make the changeling�s life miserable, or befriends their mortal friends and use gossip to turn those relationships against the changeling.

The Craftsman�s Hammer: Craftsmen in the Copper Court are proud of their work and well respected for their skill, but it also creates an Approach. A Huntsman gains a point of Yearning when turning a changeling�s creation against them. This can be done by wielding one of the character�s axes in battle, framing her by stealing her customized pistol and leaving it at a scene of a crime or even sabotaging a carpenter�s work so his clients will sue him.

Might Have Been: Regret may be the emotion the court has claimed, but if a changeling isn�t careful it can swallow her whole and destroy her. A Huntsman gains a point of Yearning when they dangle the possibility of regaining something that was lost in front of their target. A courtier who regrets not being there to see their child growing up might be offered the chance to have the Huntsman�s help ousting their fetch and smoothing the way back into their lives in exchange for betraying someone else.

Crion fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Jun 12, 2015

# ? Jun 12, 2015 22:49

unseenlibrarian: Jun 4, 2012; There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.

Most hopeful news about the beast rewrite/addition: They're adding Tucker and Dale vs. Evil to the inspiration list.

# ? Jun 13, 2015 01:53

Doc Aquatic: Jul 30, 2003; Current holder of the Plush-bum Mr. Sweets Chair in American Hobology

I have to say, the courts/Toronto preview took me from 'really excited about the idea of playing in a Changeling game' to 'If I can't find a Changeling game when Lost 2e comes out, I might actually explode'. The industrial courts in the UP and the situation in Toronto both have me pretty excited.

# ? Jun 13, 2015 02:05

Crion: Sep 30, 2004; baseball.

I like the idea of modular Courts, but still remain completely unsold on Huntsmen and the idea of a midboss tier of Arcadian antagonist between Changelings and Keepers. Especially if they're claiming territory outside the Hedge like mentioned the Iron Hold fiction.

# ? Jun 13, 2015 02:10

Doc Aquatic: Jul 30, 2003; Current holder of the Plush-bum Mr. Sweets Chair in American Hobology

Crion posted:

I like the idea of modular Courts, but still remain completely unsold on Huntsmen and the idea of a midboss tier of Arcadian antagonist between Changelings and Keepers. Especially if they're claiming territory outside the Hedge like mentioned the Iron Hold fiction.

Admittedly, I haven't read that much about Huntsmen, but I'm holding out hope that they'll be an interesting addition. I can sort of see why they might want to move Keepers a little more to the backstage and make them more of a shadowy presence using tools the PCs don't have access to, though I'm speaking with a few-years-old memory of the 1e corebook and never having played in an actual game.

# ? Jun 13, 2015 02:28

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

I can understand wanting to give you something slightly easier to punch than a minor story deity.

# ? Jun 13, 2015 02:35

Crion: Sep 30, 2004; baseball.

Mors Rattus posted:

I can understand wanting to give you something slightly easier to punch than a minor story deity.

Personally, I liked that going out and punching things wasn't a feasible method of problem-solving in Changeling 1E except under very specific circumstances.

Doc Aquatic posted:

Admittedly, I haven't read that much about Huntsmen, but I'm holding out hope that they'll be an interesting addition. I can sort of see why they might want to move Keepers a little more to the backstage and make them more of a shadowy presence using tools the PCs don't have access to, though I'm speaking with a few-years-old memory of the 1e corebook and never having played in an actual game.

Huntsman can be very interesting and even well made and still not fit the material. I feel like Arcadia having direct intermediaries that aren't other Changelings undercuts the game's entire concept. What, do the Keepers only come to the real world to do their kidnappings now? Do they abduct through intermediaries too? Do they have intermediaries run their day-to-day operations in Arcadia? Moving Keepers offscreen and making them impersonal is a really unfortunate direction to take the game, especially if it's out of concern that there just wasn't enough feel-good punching going on.

Crion fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Jun 13, 2015

# ? Jun 13, 2015 02:44

Doc Aquatic: Jul 30, 2003; Current holder of the Plush-bum Mr. Sweets Chair in American Hobology

Yeah, though if Changeling is meant to be a game about stories, and it seems like they're pulling a lot of that in, heroic struggle against something stronger than you (while not being absolutely out of your league) seems like it'd be an important role to fill.

# ? Jun 13, 2015 02:47

Crion: Sep 30, 2004; baseball.

Doc Aquatic posted:

Yeah, though if Changeling is meant to be a game about stories, and it seems like they're pulling a lot of that in, heroic struggle against something stronger than you (while not being absolutely out of your league) seems like it'd be an important role to fill.

Speaking as a Changeling 1E player and ST, if Changeling 2E turns out to be a "game about stories" and the major story-type they enable is shonen worldbeating, then I'll probably end up glancing at its contract mechanics to see if there's anything worth porting back to 1E and ignoring the rest of it.

# ? Jun 13, 2015 02:52

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

In a game about stories, surely heroic struggle against a superior but in-principle-beatable foe would be one of many poses you could adopt or tools you could wield or something, rather than an overarching descriptor of the game.

What the hell do Huntsmen do with territory, anyway?

# ? Jun 13, 2015 02:53

Crion: Sep 30, 2004; baseball.

Ferrinus posted:

In a game about stories, surely heroic struggle against a superior but in-principle-beatable foe would be one of many poses you could adopt or tools you could wield or something, rather than an overarching descriptor of the game.

What the hell do Huntsmen do with territory, anyway?

They've been holding the Huntsman stuff really close to their vest, likely because it isn't fully ironed out yet, so we probably won't know until the Kickstarter.

# ? Jun 13, 2015 02:55

Luminous Obscurity: Jan 10, 2007; "The instrument you know as a piano was once called a pianoforte, because it can play both loud and quiet notes."

With how well the other changes have been meshing with the core themes of the game I would be honestly surprised if Huntsmen don't end up fitting in somehow. Like narratively, I get they're p much the Nazgul to the Fae's Sauron, but I expect they'll have some meaning as far as the abuse survivor/trauma themes go as well.

Crion posted:

They've been holding the Huntsman stuff really close to their vest, likely because it isn't fully ironed out yet, so we probably won't know until the Kickstarter.

They don't do Kickstarters for Second Editions, only new gamelines. :eng101:

# ? Jun 13, 2015 03:02

Crion: Sep 30, 2004; baseball.

Honestly my biggest source of confusion is that making Changelings into powerful, badass supernaturals that have to be sneaky by nature but are expected to face-off against foes roughly their own power level -- whether they be treasonous brethren or direct servitors of a vast, terrifying alien intelligence -- while playing a slow, long-term strategic game against a world-bending monster that never appears on screen until perhaps the very end...completely steps all over Demon. OPP already puts out a game to do all this stuff in, and if the problem is aesthetics, the aesthetics aren't hard to change.

Luminous Obscurity posted:

They don't do Kickstarters for Second Editions, only new gamelines.

Even "better."

# ? Jun 13, 2015 03:05

Rand Brittain: Mar 25, 2013; "Go on until you're stopped."

My main concern is that having fae creatures actively and competently hunting changelings is going to cut back on the fairy tale adventure aspect�I feel like it would be a lot harder to justify building a Hollow that wasn't intensely fortified with Huntsmen about.

# ? Jun 13, 2015 03:12

Doc Aquatic: Jul 30, 2003; Current holder of the Plush-bum Mr. Sweets Chair in American Hobology

Ferrinus posted:

In a game about stories, surely heroic struggle against a superior but in-principle-beatable foe would be one of many poses you could adopt or tools you could wield or something, rather than an overarching descriptor of the game.

Pretty much exactly what I was thinking. It's a part of stories, but it'd be pretty shortsighted for it to become the core focus and I'd be surprised if they do it that way, especially with the emphasis the approaches put on Huntsmen doing things to undermine Changelings rather than directly confronting them.

# ? Jun 13, 2015 03:21

Lurks With Wolves: Jan 14, 2013; At least I don't dance with them, right?

Crion posted:

Huntsman can be very interesting and even well made and still not fit the material. I feel like Arcadia having direct intermediaries that aren't other Changelings undercuts the game's entire concept. What, do the Keepers only come to the real world to do their kidnappings now? Do they abduct through intermediaries too? Do they have intermediaries run their day-to-day operations in Arcadia? Moving Keepers offscreen and making them impersonal is a really unfortunate direction to take the game, especially if it's out of concern that there just wasn't enough feel-good punching going on.

Personally I think there's still a chance that Huntsmen have the same general origin as changelings but are called something different so people don't immediately try to get their unique mechanics when they were never intended for PC use, since they fill kind of the same niche as loyalist changelings anyway. And if it isn't, there are two ways I can see them going. Either Huntsmen are directly connected to Keepers, closely enough that they can fill the same general niche as the versions of Keepers in 1e that had stats that a group of PCs could maybe deal with, or they're something completely different and they are diluting some of Changeling's themes. I don't think a bit of dilution would be too bad, but you still have a point.

Rand Brittain posted:

My main concern is that having fae creatures actively and competently hunting changelings is going to cut back on the fairy tale adventure aspect�I feel like it would be a lot harder to justify building a Hollow that wasn't intensely fortified with Huntsmen about.

I think that's what Approaches are intended to solve. Make it so that you can have a Court that just goes around solving fey mysteries and have the Huntsmen have to try to take them in a way that interacts with the fey mysteries they specialize in and not by kicking their front door down and punching all their faces in.

# ? Jun 13, 2015 03:25

Denim Avenger: Oct 20, 2010; Excelente

Crion posted:

Honestly my biggest source of confusion is that making Changelings into powerful, badass supernaturals that have to be sneaky by nature but are expected to face-off against foes roughly their own power level -- whether they be treasonous brethren or direct servitors of a vast, terrifying alien intelligence -- while playing a slow, long-term strategic game against a world-bending monster that never appears on screen until perhaps the very end...completely steps all over Demon. OPP already puts out a game to do all this stuff in, and if the problem is aesthetics, the aesthetics aren't hard to change.

Even "better."

This is my problem with Huntsmen, they're basically Angels, but for Changeling.

I like Demon a lot, when I first read it my reaction was that it was basically a more action oriented Changeling with more focus on the paranoia and less on the idea of ever fixing yourself. I hope I'm wrong, but you know, worst comes to worst Huntsmen seem completely ignorable and it's not like its hard to brew up some Gentry, my 1st ed books aren't going anywhere.

# ? Jun 13, 2015 03:59

Gerund: Sep 12, 2007; He push a man

The 2E Court system: I don't hate it, but I don't see the purpose of distilling the structure that did exist into a pile of mechanics. C:tL had a very specific system and then left a few corners for the ST to fill in the details; the new system asks STs to make deep, interesting, and far-reaching decisions on the society of their game in exchange for formalizing the less-detailed sections into plot-laden consequences.

Detailed notes:

Step 1- Building Your Story.
This is very interesting and actually very in-line with the previous edition. There have always been more potential courts than what was in the book (Court of Donkey / Court of Elephant being one of my favorite nuggets). Having strange and alien courts in each freehold makes the changeling fear of packing up and moving that much more real. The rules of court minimums and the fuzzy maximum are very important and core to the setting; the True Fae cannot understand sharing power (and by inference, do not entirely tolerate fair competition or justice) because of the implicit limitations it places on The Ultimate Godmodders. However, creating a new court out of thin air is not for the faint of heart.

My attempt: Seattle as a history of Boom & Bust, a more explicit formation of the Dawn/Dusk or Day/Night arrangement. Lumber, Gold, Shipbuilding, Airplanes, and now Internet/Computers. Bust's hero is Denny, the premiere settler of Seattle who tried to build on land called by the indians Alki- or So-So or lovely land; Boom's hero is Yesler, the late-arrival steam-powered timber man who built his own drat street grid 45 degrees off of the other bastards, just because he could.

Step 2- Building the Bulwark

This is the ritual part, and emphasizing this now makes it stronger later when it gets broken. The passing of the crown or the establishment of borders or the entrustment of are the well-defined methods that also emphasize large-group sharing. The mentioned singular ritual such as storytelling and yearly hunts are... a different take on this sort of sharing, in that they don't involve any sharing whatsoever other than a communal need to succeed at them. It should be mentioned that a ritual needs a failure state to "count", at least. I'm not so happy that the concept of sharing within a freehold isn't as emphasized over the super-objectivist A=A might makes right theme already present in a majority of WoD.

My attempt: The boom/bust dynamic in Seattle is a factor of some outside force rather than an internal discovery since the fall of the Timber barons. The Boom/Bust metaphor brings thoughts of high and low tide, and the burgeoning class conflicts brings in an idea of obvious financial ties. The concept of the PNW potlatch then sparks an idea of each side having to give their current glamour reserves to their rival court in toto, and whomever has the most is the ascendant court; whomever of that court provided the most into the pot becomes that monarch. I don't want this to be yearly, but weekly seems too little... monthly or quarterly would work fine (financial quarters or moon-cycles)... perhaps the current ascendant court declares the deadline of the next potlatch.

Step 3: Creating the Courts

This is where your cute decisions as a storyteller start to immediately affect the players and their style. More courts equals more disparate ideas, and without a strong unifying theme between them you're gonna be stuck with the Courts of Whatever The gently caress I Wanted To Do Anyway. The inclusion of Huntsman and their Approach makes it sound like the Huntsman are the very clear dividing line between the two schizophrenic presentations of True Fae; the kind you kill and fight, and the Keepers in Arcadia that actually to the Durancing. It is what it is, I guess.
The Approach and Yearning are expansions to things mentioned in the corebook- Spring Court and Wyrd, specifically. My issue with the system is that Keepers are so constrained by the system that there is never any reason to ever have to share plot with non-court members. This doesn't represent the over-theme of courts sharing whatsoever! I would probably de-emphasize the rigidity of Approach in general and the lack of True Fae representation versus their Huntsman counterparts.
The mantle bonuses are all sorts of off-kilter. Who the gently caress cares about 9-agains or +1 to defense when +2 to a skill or +1 armor is on the table?

My attempt: Bust ("the Bear") draws from Spite, and is more grungy, flannel, dingy, musical, and proletariat- they are the long-time inhabitants and homeowners. Boom ("the Bull") takes the emotion of Gloating, and is more formal, eyeglasses, clean, intellectual, and aristocratic- they are the recent arrivals that rent and take classes. Bust has to worry about an approach to steal what they have already earned; Boom has to worry about the gravy train getting capped somehow. Bust trains in how to fix things and preserves greenspaces; Boom develops properties and tries to get good grades at school. Bust Rituals involve the slow inclusion of new people by inviting them into your home; Boom rituals involve a frenzied gathering into a communal space for a larger cause like an anime convention. Bust mantle and Boom mantle are tbd, but don't sound THAT difficult to plot out.

Gerund fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Jun 13, 2015

# ? Jun 13, 2015 04:05

pospysyl: Nov 10, 2012

This preview actually unsold me on Huntsmen. Before, I figured they filled a nice niche of scary fairytale antagonists that could actually interact with individual changelings or motleys without being an apocalyptic threat to the entire freehold. In 1e that role would be filled by a powerful changeling or a factionless weird creature like the briarwolves. The main thing was that, like the briarwolves, they would just be a part of the toolbox that individual STs could take or leave as suited their chronicle. This preview shows just how deeply rooted the Huntsmen are going to be in the Changeling setting. The book's going as far as to say that these individual antagonists are the primary reason for Courts to exist at all. Now it's hard to imagine playing a game of Changeling 2e without using the Huntsmen when even they're explicitly a part of the Y-splat rules. I'm absolutely not a fan of 2e's strategy of picking out pet antagonists to spend tons of wordcount on and placing them in a privileged context in the rules. Beast's Heroes and Changeling's Huntsmen are just the most blatant examples of this.

I'm mixed on the idea of customizable Courts. It's really great in that it allows for creating new courts and a lot more cultural diversity. The original book paid lip service to the idea that not everywhere in the world even has the four seasons and that different parts of the world would have different court systems, and now it's actually delivering on that premise. However, being forced to design a setting within certain limits is going to produce more memorable and creative settings than complete freedom. The Miami setting is my favorite out of all the corebook sample settings of 1e because of how it stretches the concepts of the Seasonal Courts. Having it instead be the Court of Drugs, the Court of Muscle, the Court of Universities, and the Court of Sexy duking it out would take away the charm of the setting. The results of the original system don't look to be dissimilar from the results of this one. In the sample ones you can already see that the Courts tend to gather around certain industries and parts of town, which is exactly what the seasonal Courts would do (again, just look at Miami). I do unequivocally enjoy the new Freehold building rules. They're going to do a lot to drive community-based plots, which is just what I want from Changeling.

# ? Jun 13, 2015 05:27

Loomer: Dec 19, 2007; A Very Special Hell

I quite like the idea of Huntsmen, but as something very rare. The terrifying rumour around the campfire, etc. Now and then a True Fae really wants his property back for some reason, and he contracts it out.

# ? Jun 13, 2015 05:33

Kavak: Aug 23, 2009

quote:

I'm absolutely not a fan of 2e's strategy of picking out pet antagonists to spend tons of wordcount on and placing them in a privileged context in the rules. Beast's Heroes and Changeling's Huntsmen are just the most blatant examples of this.

I think because it mostly worked with the Strix, they're convinced it's needed everywhere. While Werewolf actually benefits from having the idigam fleshed out (There's plenty of other poo poo for the Uratha to fight if you don't like them), Prometheans don't need the alchemists they're trying to shoehorn in and the Huntsmen are looking way too prominent. Wonder if they've got anything planned for Geist?

quote:

I'm mixed on the idea of customizable Courts. It's really great in that it allows for creating new courts and a lot more cultural diversity. The original book paid lip service to the idea that not everywhere in the world even has the four seasons and that different parts of the world would have different court systems, and now it's actually delivering on that premise. However, being forced to design a setting within certain limits is going to produce more memorable and creative settings than complete freedom.

Same here. I always saw the court structure as being based on firm geographies and flows of time, things alien to the Fae- getting too abstract removes that barrier to them. There's also the approach to life/stages of grief motif that is lost (Excuse the pun) with their removal. It's also a bad choice for STs new to Changeling to be thrown in the deep end like this, though I'm sure there'll be more examples in the main book.

# ? Jun 13, 2015 05:47

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# ? May 8, 2024 21:25

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

pospysyl posted:

I'm absolutely not a fan of 2e's strategy of picking out pet antagonists to spend tons of wordcount on and placing them in a privileged context in the rules.

Another victory for Mage.

# ? Jun 13, 2015 05:50

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