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Kiritsugu did nothing wrong
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Jun 11, 2015 05:55
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vampires are jerks in nasuverse
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Jun 11, 2015 06:59
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humanity can't even get by without a buncha fuckin planets getting up in its grill
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Jun 11, 2015 12:37
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Compendium posted:vampires are jerks in nasuverse
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Jun 11, 2015 13:27
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Most of the Dead Apostle Ancestors shown are pretty chill and usually leave people alone. Think only that evil forest, Nrvrsvdvdhsj Chaos, super gaia wolf and TATARI went out eating people on the reg?
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Jun 11, 2015 13:35
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Wasn't there one that like lives on a boat and throws parties for rich people.
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Jun 11, 2015 13:38
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:Most of the Dead Apostle Ancestors shown are pretty chill and usually leave people alone. Think only that evil forest, Nrvrsvdvdhsj Chaos, super gaia wolf and TATARI went out eating people on the reg?
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Jun 11, 2015 13:40
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Nate RFB posted:Wasn't there one that like lives on a boat and throws parties for rich people. Van Fem, yes. He's a casino mogul and likes humans because instead of waging secret wars in gothic castles we like to get trashed and gamble.
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Jun 11, 2015 14:38
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The one who accidentally locked himself on a magic extradimensional treasure chest that can't be opened and trolls people by calling them with his phone is cool too
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Jun 11, 2015 14:59
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While the bigwig vampires are pretty chill, the problem's the low grade ones. That's what the Church cleans up.
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Jun 11, 2015 17:01
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There's also the issue of the bigwigs who aren't chill, like the Ghost Pirate/Pedophile
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Jun 11, 2015 17:09
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Oh yeah, we now know Archer's identity and abilities so we can go back and explain a few things that were confusing people before. Namely, why the hell Ilya retreated way back in Episode 3. So there's a lot of other stuff you can go into (her feelings for her father and how complicated that makes her relationship to Shirou) but looking at it again there's an obvious tactical reason. Namely, Berserker's Noble Phantasm (God Hand: Twelve Labors) is complete bullshit and actually makes him impossible to defeat for a staggering amount of Servant-Master teams. It gives him 12 lives, allows him to ignore all attacks below a certain very high threshold, and also adds resistance to any attack that damages him after he heals from the attack. What this adds up to is that you need to kill him 12 times with a high ranking attack or ability, and every time you kill him you need to use a different one. Quite pointedly, just about the only servant that can beat him in a straight up fight is Gilgamesh. Right before Ilya retreated, Archer summoned a Noble Phantasm copy using Unlimited Blade Works and shot it as an explosive projectile at Berserker. Although it was blocked, Ilya noticed that Archer treated Noble Phantasms as very expendable, implying he had more of them (which of course he does). This means that Archer was one of the few Servants actually capable of beating Berserker at all, so she made a tactical retreat until she had more information. That was wise, because assuming that Archer has been bullshitting the entire time and knew who he was and what his abilities were since that fight, he and Saber could probably have taken out Berserker by working together, and there's no real reason to risk throwing away your bullshit servant with his bullshit special ability. All of this is obviously a bit more apparent playing the game (you know what Berserker's Noble Phantasm is and how it works from the Fate route), where you also know that Archer is at least somewhat threatening to Berserker. Even without that knowledge though, it should have been apparent that Ilya was making a tactical retreat... well it would've been more apparent if Berserker actually tried to block Archer's attack like he does in the VN, rather than standing there and just tanking it. But there was more than enough bitching about that when the episode came out. EDIT: To give an idea of what I mean by "certain very high threshold," if I'm reading into this right and I understand Nasuverse mechanics (more painful than you might imagine it to be), Gae Bolg is not good enough to harm Berserker. Excalibur is, relatively obviously. So I guess it makes sense that Berserker didn't actually need to block Archer's shot, as I doubt Caladbolg is strong enough to hurt Berserker. But I digress and going further into this would be going into weird, probably contradictory mechanics and Nasuverse Power Level Discussions, which are worse than the discussions I've been a part of in in this thread. Twiddy fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Jun 11, 2015 |
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Jun 11, 2015 20:46
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Twiddy posted:Oh yeah, we now know Archer's identity and abilities so we can go back and explain a few things that were confusing people before. Namely, why the hell Ilya retreated way back in Episode 3. So there's a lot of other stuff you can go into (her feelings for her father and how complicated that makes her relationship to Shirou) but looking at it again there's an obvious tactical reason. Namely, Berserker's Noble Phantasm (God Hand: Twelve Labors) is complete bullshit and actually makes him impossible to defeat for a staggering amount of Servant-Master teams. It gives him 12 lives, allows him to ignore all attacks below a certain very high threshold, and also adds resistance to any attack that damages him after he heals from the attack. What this adds up to is that you need to kill him 12 times with a high ranking attack or ability, and every time you kill him you need to use a different one. Quite pointedly, just about the only servant that can beat him in a straight up fight is Gilgamesh. Doesn't Berserker get killed by Shirou in Fate? 
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Jun 11, 2015 20:53
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Angry Grimace posted:Doesn't Berserker get killed by Shirou in Fate? Only due to Caliburn "kill you 7 times with one strike" hax.
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Jun 11, 2015 20:56
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I remembered Saber using Caliburn to kill Berserker, which is a bit more believable in-universe.
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Jun 11, 2015 20:58
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Angry Grimace posted:Doesn't Berserker get killed by Shirou in Fate? I assume that Fate spoilers are just fine this deep into the show.
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Jun 11, 2015 20:59
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berserker has 12 lives to make people look cool when they kill him anyways, that's all
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Jun 11, 2015 21:03
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Cake Attack posted:berserker has 12 lives to make people look cool when they kill him anyways, that's all There's also a bit of an annoying factor in providing a real explanation because from my memory, just about the same thing happens in the Fate route, except Archer doesn't help in the fight and Ilya still retreats after wrecking Shirou's poo poo (due to the feely stuff I glossed over in my post), implying she still would have retreated even if none of that happened. But there's many reasons that people don't like the Fate route and the fact that everything done in the Fate route is done better in UBW is one of them.
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Jun 11, 2015 21:09
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Twiddy posted:EDIT: Noble Phantasms have a base "Rank" from E to A(+++++++++++++/EX), checking the wiki it's A rank and above required, and Gae Bolg is B rank, but Lancer can use his Runes to boost it to A.
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Jun 11, 2015 21:14
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Raenir Salazar posted:Noble Phantasms have a base "Rank" from E to A(+++++++++++++/EX), checking the wiki it's A rank and above required, and Gae Bolg is B rank, but Lancer can use his Runes to boost it to A. Basically, God Hand allows Heracles to just ignore any attack B rank and below, so you literally need to do something top class to even hurt him. I could actually go on, there's literally paragraphs about the precise mechanics of how this ability works on this wiki I used to fact check that post. Ugh.
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Jun 11, 2015 21:19
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Twiddy posted:He gets killed by Saber and Shirou working together using a projected Caliburn. And yeah as stated above, you can shave off more than 1 life with an attack, which is basically the reason there's a few servants that might be able to solo Berserker and not "just one." It's worth noting that Berserker was already softened up (lost 5 lives) by Archer in that route, so Archer can clearly do a number by himself. So basically, even though Saber is a pretty bullshit servant in her own regard I'm not sure if she has the arsenal or pure power to solo Berserker either. I assumed so, it aired a decade ago.
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Jun 11, 2015 21:24
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Twiddy posted:Yeah I knew that I was just leaving out the ranks because I doubted that a lot of people who didn't already know this stuff cared about the mechanics that in depth. Ironically the "Ranks" are meant to convey the information you posted in a way we as primarily video game nerds can easily understand 
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Jun 11, 2015 22:00
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As long as we're talking about Fate stuff, there's something I think that was only ever explained in the Fate route of the VN that every adaptation to my recollection has left out. (And I only vaguely remember it myself  )spoilering just in case my memory is fuked and it was in UBW (Preeetty sure it wasn't the case, because it was kinda a big deal for Saber): Everyone gets that Servants are Heroic Spirits from the past that are summoned. But what's left out are the details of that. Namely that the Servant that is summoned is not "the" Heroic Spirit. It's basically a copy of the true Heroic Spirit that spends eternity trapped in the "Throne of Heroes." I don't think they keep their memories of their experiences but I thought the original got something back when the copy dies. Maybe someone who remembers this better than I can explain.
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Jun 12, 2015 00:03
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Zogundar posted:As long as we're talking about Fate stuff, there's something I think that was only ever explained in the Fate route of the VN that every adaptation to my recollection has left out. (And I only vaguely remember it myself They don't keep direct memories of their experiences, but Archer got to "read" the actions of his copies summoned as Counter Guardians like a book. Whether Heroic Spirits get to "read" about their copies summoned in Grail Wars like that too is unclear; I'm not sure if it's ever been stated whether Heroic Spirits are normally even conscious when on the Throne, or how much being on the Throne even resembles being in a physical place. (I think one of the artbooks has Arcueid from Tsukihime stealing a wand from Medea's room on the Throne to become a magical girl, but that's clearly meant as a joke and doesn't necessarily reflect how things "really" work.) Arturia is an exception: The Grail summons the original because she isn't technically dead, so she still remembers the events of the Fourth War. If she's "killed" in a Grail War, her consciousness just travels back in time to right after the Battle of Camlann. This is a bit excessively complicated, and I'm not sure what the point of it was besides making Arturia more special. It does allow for some things in other Fate stories that wouldn't otherwise have worked, but I'm not sure if Nasu foresaw that when he wrote F/SN. Edit: Minor spoilers for Extra, Extra CCC, Strange Fake, and Apocrypha: It lets Gilgamesh appear in a less villainous role in CCC and Strange Fake, without him being the same guy who tried to wipe out humanity. It also lets the identities of the Servants from previous wars remain a mystery, since the Servants themselves don't necessarily know whether they were summoned before. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Jun 12, 2015 |
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Jun 12, 2015 02:11
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Silver2195 posted:Arturia is an exception: The Grail summons the original because she isn't technically dead, so she still remembers the events of the Fourth War. If she's "killed" in a Grail War, her consciousness just travels back in time to right after the Battle of Camlann. Fate route spoilers: I was purposefully leaving out the part about Arturia because that was a bit more spoilery and involved getting into specific plot spoilers in the Fate route. I took the point of it to be that the idea of the Fate route was that Shirou saved Saber from her "Fate" which was to become part of that nightmarish sounding existence (And given what we know happened with Archer later, it sounds like she did indeed dodge a bullet.)
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Jun 12, 2015 02:48
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The real reason Gil is less of a dick on Extra is that on the Moon Cell's future, war and catastrophes already pretty much decimated most humans so he sees it as a more worthy place.
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Jun 12, 2015 05:01
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Silver2195 posted:[spoiler]They don't keep direct memories of their experiences, but Archer got to "read" the actions of his copies summoned as Counter Guardians like a book. Whether Heroic Spirits get to "read" about their copies summoned in Grail Wars like that too is unclear; I'm not sure if it's ever been stated whether Heroic Spirits are normally even conscious when on the Throne, or how much being on the Throne even resembles being in a physical place. (I think one of the artbooks has Arcueid from Tsukihime stealing a wand from Medea's room on the Throne to become a magical girl, but that's clearly meant as a joke and doesn't necessarily reflect how things "really" work.) The way I read it is that it follows the same rules as them knowing how to speak Japanese, and how to ride a motorcycle and stuff. Their incarnations are are given common knowledge to make survival in the place they're summoned easier, and part of that common knowledge is the knowledge of what they do and have done as heroic spirits. They don't "remember" it, but they "know" it.
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Jun 12, 2015 05:11
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Twiddy posted:He gets killed by Saber and Shirou working together using a projected Caliburn. And yeah as stated above, you can shave off more than 1 life with an attack, which is basically the reason there's a few servants that might be able to solo Berserker and not "just one." It's worth noting that Berserker was already softened up (lost 5 lives) by Archer in that route, so Archer can clearly do a number by himself. So basically, even though Saber is a pretty bullshit servant in her own regard I'm not sure if she has the arsenal or pure power to solo Berserker either. The ironic part is that (much like Lancelot), had Heracles not been summoned as Berserker, but instead as Rider or Saber, he would've been even more busted a servant that he already was since the strength loss would've been offset by much greater control over their ridiculous NPs.
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Jun 12, 2015 12:40
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Raenir Salazar posted:Noble Phantasms have a base "Rank" from E to A(+++++++++++++/EX), checking the wiki it's A rank and above required, and Gae Bolg is B rank, but Lancer can use his Runes to boost it to A. There's actually an attack that each servant (presumably) has access to called Broken Phantasm. They can sacrifice their Noble Phantasm for a one-time full-rank increase to attack power. Since Archer can just create Noble Phantasms at will, he can utilize this every time he fires one. Hence the loving huge explosion when Caladbolg hits Berserker. I don't know if this is ever explained anywhere. Solanumai fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Jun 12, 2015 |
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Jun 12, 2015 15:51
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Silver2195 posted:Edit: Minor spoilers for Extra, Extra CCC, Strange Fake, and Apocrypha: I think it also lets Heroic Spirits figure out who other Heroic Spirits are based on figuring out their Noble Phantasm and other traits; even though for example, someone like Herakles wouldn't know of Arturia; but the Throne gives him that knowledge, Herakles seems to know about Caliburn in Fate.
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Jun 12, 2015 16:15
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Shere posted:There's actually an attack that each servant (presumably) has access to called Broken Phantasm. They can sacrifice their Noble Phantasm for a one-time full-rank increase to attack power. Since Archer can just create Noble Phantasms at will, he can utilize this every time he fires one. Hence the loving huge explosion when Caladbolg hits Berserker. Yes. Lancer can also boost his spear via rune magic.
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Jun 13, 2015 04:49
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Kyte posted:Yes. Lancer can also boost his spear via rune magic. Also ACTIVATING it makes it be a more bigger rank number for that one attack. I.E when he chucked it against Archer. While Ranks are a thing, there's a bajillion ways to subvert them.
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Jun 13, 2015 05:07
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The only stat I care about is Luck on a Lancer.
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Jun 13, 2015 05:18
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T.G. Xarbala posted:The only stat I care about is Luck on a Lancer. You don't really care about much then.
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Jun 13, 2015 13:18
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I guess it's about to drop this title on Gilgamesh' smug rear end. Good episode in my opinion. Properly set up the stakes and the fight next episode. Hopefully it ends up as awesome as I want it to be. Blinks77 posted:You don't really care about much then.
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Jun 13, 2015 20:11
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So now will it be two more episodes or one longer final episode? For pacing's sake, I hope it's the latter.
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Jun 13, 2015 20:14
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The 23rd episode is my second or third favorite episode until now.
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Jun 13, 2015 20:34
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ETB posted:So now will it be two more episodes or one longer final episode? For pacing's sake, I hope it's the latter.
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Jun 13, 2015 21:19
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Well, they sure butchered the second assassin fight.
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Jun 13, 2015 21:39
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Fangz posted:Well, they sure butchered the second assassin fight. I actually liked it a lot. The atmosphere was a very samurai like. Fitted, as everything was decided in a single strike like in the old samurai movies. Assassin flashback was great, the art in particular, and all his scenes had a very melancholic feeling. It was the highlight of the episode for me. YggdrasilTM fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Jun 13, 2015 |
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Jun 13, 2015 21:46
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