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Isn't there also an actual Changeling who stole your life and is using your name?
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Jun 14, 2015 06:15
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Night10194 posted:Isn't there also an actual Changeling who stole your life and is using your name? Nah, your fetch is just a magical construct of twigs and trash.
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Jun 14, 2015 06:21
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Pope Guilty posted:Nah, your fetch is just a magical construct of twigs and trash. Huh. A friend told me awhile back there was supposed to be a sort of magic clone of you that replaced you when the horrors got hold of you and you came back to find that not only were you not missed, the clone was kind of an idealized version of you that did 'you' better. That sounded hosed up and cool.
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Jun 14, 2015 06:22
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That part is right. The clones are called Fetches and they're literally made of garbage and magic. They may or may not be aware of what they are and they may or may not try to kill you on sight. Edit: VVV Also that. VVV
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Jun 14, 2015 06:26
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Sometimes it's better at being you, sometimes it's not, it varies from story to story. On an unrelated topic, what happened to the "Scroll of Ages" Mummy mentions, and if that's not happening, is there a good list of inspirations/reference material anywhere?
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Jun 14, 2015 06:27
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I always liked the idea of having a group of changelings, the Mean Girls, who specialize in killing fetches. Because if anybody's going to make sure fetch doesn't happen...
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Jun 14, 2015 06:31
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Kavak posted:On an unrelated topic, what happened to the "Scroll of Ages" Mummy mentions, and if that's not happening, is there a good list of inspirations/reference material anywhere? I love that they explicitly mentioned it in the book because it gets even funnier every year that it doesn't exist. Inspirations for Mummy: Jane Loudon's "The Mummy! A novel of the 22nd century" Planescape: Torment Music video for "Remember the Time" "Return the slab or suffer my curse" episode of Courage the Cowardly Dog with the spooky animation "The Scorpion King" starring Dwayne The Rock Johnson
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Jun 14, 2015 06:35
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Kellsterik posted:I love that they explicitly mentioned it in the book because it gets even funnier every year that it doesn't exist. Well I'm good then.
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Jun 14, 2015 06:37
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Night10194 posted:Huh. A friend told me awhile back there was supposed to be a sort of magic clone of you that replaced you when the horrors got hold of you and you came back to find that not only were you not missed, the clone was kind of an idealized version of you that did 'you' better. That sounded hosed up and cool. The explanation I'd always heard was fetches are you, except missing something. Maybe it's missing your empathy or your sense of right and wrong, but it could just as easily be missing your alcoholism or short-temperedness. Either way, dealing with a fetch can get messy real quick.
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Jun 14, 2015 07:20
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While I'll agree that the version of Beast presented in the new version of intro has its rough spots, I like it much better than the original. In particular, - the awkward attempt at presenting Beasts as outsiders despite being best buddies with other supernaturals is gone, - the implicit sense of superiority to other supernaturals is gone (and seems to be replaced by a more pleasantly crossover-play-enabling "student of other supernaturals" theme), - the whole "dream imposed on the real world" thing as a theme played through with both Beasts and Heroes removes the worst of the thematic conflicts inherent in "you are a primordial monster yet are totally human physically by default", and - Beasts feel much more like actual characters by default instead of petty assholes and/or edgelord strawman revenge fantasy placeholders. Also, there have been a number of complaints about the way Devouring is presented in the new draft. Here's a thought: What if it was reversed? What if it wasn't the monster Devouring you, but instead you Devouring the monster? Of course, this would probably be quite a dangerous process, liable to kill or drive utterly mad someone who isn't properly prepared. It would make being a Beast feel less like "joining a club" and more like a mystical initiation of the kind historically practiced in the real world, or like the initiation rites of the Mawé people, where a boy ready to become a man sticks his hand into hundreds of (incredibly painful) live bullet ants. Ferrinus posted:Well, I'm not sure exactly how they're going to sell the fear->education connection Go read the original Cinderella. BE NICE TO YOUR LITTLE SISTER OR ELSE SOMEBODY WILL CUT OFF YOUR TOES AND THEN BIRDS WILL PECK OUT YOUR EYES Or, hey, there's Little Red Riding Hood. DON'T gently caress STRANGERS OR A WOLF WILL EAT YOU What about The Little Mermaid? IF YOU GIVE UP PART OF YOURSELF FOR ONE-SIDED LOVE YOU'LL FUCKIN' DIE Bluebeard? DON'T MARRY SOMEONE WHO'S BEEN MARRIED A LOT OF TIMES OR HE'LL MURDER YOU AND HIDE YOUR BODY UNDER THE FLOORBOARDS I could go on. Pope Guilty posted:I love that the Ordo has titles that mean "I'm showing off for the mundanes" and "the guy who gave me this title wants you to kill me." This is pretty hilarious and now I want to know the source too.
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Jun 14, 2015 07:29
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Roadie posted:Bluebeard? Henry the 8th's assorted wives kicking themselves over this one.
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Jun 14, 2015 07:41
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Roadie posted:This is pretty hilarious and now I want to know the source too. Those are from the Titles sidebar near the beginning of the Ordo Dracul covenant book. A showoff wants "Sublime" or "Transcendent" or "Dreadful" and the person whose master wants them dead is "...of the Fourth Darkness."
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Jun 14, 2015 07:47
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Roadie posted:Bluebeard? Or at least that's how I interpret it. It's got a pretty happy ending for a classic fairy tale.
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Jun 14, 2015 07:49
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I just realized it, but Hellsing is hilariously a good inspiration for a Beast game with Alucard being a good Beast and the Major and Anderson being Heroes. I'm a loving weeb.
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Jun 14, 2015 07:52
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NutritiousSnack posted:I just realized it, but Hellsing is hilariously a good inspiration for a Beast game with Alucard being a good Beast and the Major and Anderson being Heroes. The Major is a loving Nazi, not the kind of archetype you want for Heroes right now. Anderson worls, though.
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Jun 14, 2015 07:55
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Attorney at Funk posted:Those are from the Titles sidebar near the beginning of the Ordo Dracul covenant book. A showoff wants "Sublime" or "Transcendent" or "Dreadful" and the person whose master wants them dead is "...of the Fourth Darkness." That's hilarious. I just looked into that, and it's mostly ciphers they can use to give hidden messages (like "Terrible" meaning "I am here against my will," or even the showoff one as it's specifically "I am showing off for the audience"), and then at the end there's "...of the Fourth Darkness", which looking at the preceding text is something a master would give their pupil for... Reasons. Also "Dedicated", which is "I know only one Coil," and in the example is paired with "...of the Fourth Darkness" and probably makes the person that much more tempting. One of the interesting examples given is someone with high a Beasts Coil and the message “I need some immediate help, but stay calm because a traitor who doesn’t know the code is listening”: "Adept of the Invincible and Esoteric Terror”. And then there's a paragraph on false titles and how "I'm sorry, we only allow such-and-such" in here to bluff infiltrators is a thing. The Ordo Dracul is amazing.
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Jun 14, 2015 08:00
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Roland Jones posted:That's hilarious. I just looked into that, and it's mostly ciphers they can use to give hidden messages (like "Terrible" meaning "I am here against my will," or even the showoff one as it's specifically "I am showing off for the audience"), and then at the end there's "...of the Fourth Darkness", which looking at the preceding text is something a master would give their pupil for... Reasons. Also "Dedicated", which is "I know only one Coil," and in the example is paired with "...of the Fourth Darkness" and probably makes the person that much more tempting. One of the interesting examples given is someone with high a Beasts Coil and the message “I need some immediate help, but stay calm because a traitor who doesn’t know the code is listening”: "Adept of the Invincible and Esoteric Terror”. It's a little hosed up, honestly, the extent to which the Ordo Dracul is the best and coolest covenant.
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Jun 14, 2015 08:02
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Kavak posted:The Major is a loving Nazi, not the kind of archetype you want for Heroes right now. Anderson worls, though. Anderson in particular would work, since he's actually presented as a heroic figure outside of his unhealthy desire to kill protestants. Protects the weak, fights for the innocent, raises orphaned children, etc.
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Jun 14, 2015 08:06
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Roadie posted:Go read the original Cinderella. Okay, but those people didn't, themselves, learn any lessons. They just got hosed up for the edification of future listeners, and it doesn't sound like Beasts are going to teach by making certain people into examples. As well, I'm not sure Beast should be creeping up on fairy tale territory.
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Jun 14, 2015 08:06
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My favorite part of the Beast revisions is that now, any Beast worth their salt (or worth playing) would now be actively working to save (while avoiding death by) Melanie, and in a way that made her a boon to the people she returned home to. That's a strong, specific result that says they listened to criticism, and internalized it into their work in a really admirable way. Suffering brings wisdom indeed. And I would note, the story these revisions tell is a legitimate subversion of the role of Chaos in the Hero's Journey, rather than a bullied 15-year-old's take on flipping the script.
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Jun 14, 2015 08:07
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Kavak posted:The Major is a loving Nazi, not the kind of archetype you want for Heroes right now. Anderson worls, though. Heroes can be loving evil assholes, it's just until this rewrite that's all they can be. But yeah Anderson is the main comparison, because he fits all the criteria. Normal person outside of monster hunting. Insane racist rear end in a top hat when fighting the supernatural who makes zero differentiations between the good and bad. Edit: Essentially Nightbreed and Hellsing have good examples of evil, low integrity Heroes and Hellsing also an example of a good Hero. Deckard and the Major are evil but resourceful scum with a deeply personal and unwarranted revulsion of the supernatural while remaining credible antagonists. Anderson is the cool foil that the players will try to avoid a fight with, and try to solve their problems with him diplomatically, because he really is a good guy deep down and is also loving dangerous in a fight. NutritiousSnack fucked around with this message at 08:17 on Jun 14, 2015 |
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Jun 14, 2015 08:09
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Attorney at Funk posted:It's a little hosed up, honestly, the extent to which the Ordo Dracul is the best and coolest covenant. How could it not be? Dracula woke up, realized somethin' was goin' wrong and decided that he needed to whip himself into shape, shape up his act and set himself straight. Plus, they're the only covenant trying to go forward and move ahead in overcoming their weaknesses, which I detected as a theme that resonates well with the notions of Requiem. Even after you've been embraced, it's not too late.
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Jun 14, 2015 08:15
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Naturally, a bunch of people are really mad at the revisions.Eriard posted:I must sadly say that these revisions do greatly disappoint me, i fel that it removes a lot of the Joy of tackelig having become a beast, it removes a lot of challenge and dedicated horror and fear. It also feels a lot less cool to play this horror rather than the ancient soul, even though there is a lot of semantics at work here. It also removes the player from themselves and turns the horror into an adversary rather than us BEING the monster
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Jun 14, 2015 08:18
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Ordo was the one big original idea in Requiem and it really worked because it was a player goal, a extension of what vampires in the world of darkness would do narratively, and a theme of the game.Loomer posted:Naturally, a bunch of people are really mad at the revisions.
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Jun 14, 2015 08:20
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Roadie posted:Go read the original [fairy tale]. Ferrinus posted:Okay, but those people didn't, themselves, learn any lessons. They just got hosed up for the edification of future listeners, and it doesn't sound like Beasts are going to teach by making certain people into examples. As well, I'm not sure Beast should be creeping up on fairy tale territory. i would like to point out that a lot of the (generally sexist, btw) "BEHAVE OR HORRIBLE THINGS WILL HAPPEN TO YOU" type morals got added in by the grimm brothers when they were compiling fairy tales. the originals were rather... murkier.
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Jun 14, 2015 08:27
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When I did my V:tM/V:tR mashup, the Sabbat of the city took on "vampire names" to symbolize how they were throwing their mortal concerns and pasts away.
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Jun 14, 2015 08:47
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Cryophage posted:Sorry, should have been clearer with my original query: I get why the the game designers are pushing the naming convention, but I'm not clear on what the in-universe justification is. Didn't it have something to do with the power of True Names and such? If you know Winter Harrow's true name is Rob Robertson, then your spells and such are more powerful. I also recall one character in the demo whose Keeper would be summoned if you repeat her True Name three times. At higher levels of Wyrd, some bans and taboos also rely on knowing your True Name.
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Jun 14, 2015 09:35
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ErichZahn posted:By design, every Changeling won. Having a Seeming requires it. "Winning" as originally presented could also mean "Was successfully tricked into watching a 72 hour teletubbies marathon while you slipped out the back door", though, in addition to the fact gentry usually don't stay dead. Shrinking the conceptual space down from any defeat to strictly slaying them, and that's a death that is assumed to stick, really weakens the potential play space. CommissarMega posted:Didn't it have something to do with the power of True Names and such? If you know Winter Harrow's true name is Rob Robertson, then your spells and such are more powerful. I also recall one character in the demo whose Keeper would be summoned if you repeat her True Name three times. At higher levels of Wyrd, some bans and taboos also rely on knowing your True Name. Partly actual magic, partly because some changelings worry that if they get known as their original name again their keeper will hear it through the grapevine on the basis of not even trying. This may or may not actually be useful, but a lot of changelings believe it is, and as I said earlier I think it's good if changelings are always jumping at shadows.
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Jun 14, 2015 10:25
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spectralent posted:"Winning" as originally presented could also mean "Was successfully tricked into watching a 72 hour teletubbies marathon while you slipped out the back door", though, in addition to the fact gentry usually don't stay dead. Shrinking the conceptual space down from any defeat to strictly slaying them, and that's a death that is assumed to stick, really weakens the potential play space. I wouldn't like that for the simple reason that it weakens the abuse metaphor; you've escaped your abuser, but they may still find you again and continue the abuse.
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Jun 14, 2015 10:36
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Pope Guilty posted:Nah, your fetch is just a magical construct of twigs and trash. Twigs and trash and a bit of your soul. There's also the implication that no matter how hosed up your fetch ends up [And some don't, some do an ok enough job at being you. Maybe even better if you were poo poo at it.], at the end of the day it's a type of hosed up you had inside you to start with. Which is why I liked the option to join with your fetch and reintegrate them wasn't sold as the 'right' or 'good' option. Just because it's a part of you doesn't mean it's a good part of you. You may get a bit of your soul back, but it doesn't mean it's a part of your soul you'd particularly want, or at least it might have a cost you aren't willing to pay. And that conversely there are plenty of changelings throughout the books that just.....leave their fetch alone. It's doing a good enough job being you, you probably wouldn't, why rock the boat? It's all well and good to say it's a freakish non-person that stole your life, but really...how much of a person are you at this point anyway?
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Jun 14, 2015 12:22
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Boogaleeboo posted:It's all well and good to say it's a freakish non-person that stole your life, but really...how much of a person are you at this point anyway? More like "How much of that person are you?" After the poo poo you went through, the things you saw, the things you did, can you go back to your old life and family when you're already technically there? Would taking out your fetch just end up hurting them more and making things worse?
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Jun 14, 2015 12:26
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Ferrinus posted:Okay, but those people didn't, themselves, learn any lessons. They just got hosed up for the edification of future listeners, and it doesn't sound like Beasts are going to teach by making certain people into examples. As well, I'm not sure Beast should be creeping up on fairy tale territory. The revised intro does mention beasts trying to target people they think deserve what they get to make an example out of them. Beast's revised intro, hunger section posted:
It's not much, but's more of a part of it now than it was before. I didn't see the 'student of other supernaturals' theme that Roadie did, though. It sounds like a marked improvement and I'm hoping I just overlooked it.
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Jun 14, 2015 13:01
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You know, Carmen Sandiego could totally be a Beast character concept (post-revision, that is): "I have stolen this important thing, solve these bullshit riddles to get it back if you can, chumps".
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Jun 14, 2015 14:18
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Frankly, any Changeling game worth its salt should have a set of creepy loner twins that are either strongly hinted or confirmed to be a reconciled Changeling and their Fetch.Roadie posted:Go read the original Cinderella. When I said Beast was aimless and redundant, this is what I meant by "redundant." In addition to what everyone (and the text itself) has already said about the "making examples of people" thing falling somewhat flat on its face as anything other than a self-justification, didactic fear is a huge part of the Changeling schtick already, with the benefit of it not being the only thing the splat does. They might as well just rename this game "Scarecrow: The Ministry." edit: I think we can all agree on one thing, at least: it's good that we're able to find other examples of Beasts and Heroes in media now other than "the protagonists of the television show Leverage." Crion fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Jun 14, 2015 |
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Jun 14, 2015 14:22
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While the Ordo Dracul was great from the corebook, and it got two great books with Rites of the Dragon and the covenant book, I feel like all the other covenants got their chance to shine in theor own books. They all get great stuff there, like the "Thirty-Four Favors" section in Carthian that gives examples of the kind of stuff other Carthians can randomly ask you, such as "All you have to do is stick the briefcase in your closet and don’t let anyone know you have it. You can forget about it. I’ll pick it up Monday night, first thing. Just don’t open it. Oh, and if you think you’re hearing voices from it, just ignore them" and "You gotta get over here now! The walls, poo poo, the walls are bleeding, and everything’s screaming! Help me!".
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Jun 14, 2015 15:07
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Loomer posted:Naturally, a bunch of people are really mad at the revisions. What I'm getting is that these people are mad because now that it's the "Horror" rather than the "Soul" They aren't otherkin, and they weren't born special. Now they're just schlubs who had the gift and chose to be the way they are. This makes them less special even though probably none of the mechanics are going to change.
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Jun 14, 2015 16:29
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LatwPIAT posted:I wouldn't like that for the simple reason that it weakens the abuse metaphor; you've escaped your abuser, but they may still find you again and continue the abuse. Right, but "the abuse metaphor" isn't the only thing going on in Changeling. That doesn't need to be the end of the conversation. The game and setting has content beyond a 1:1 comparison to surviving abuse. Like for example, having defeated your Keeper in your backstory runs the risk of your character solving their biggest inherent conflict before you've even played. You're taking something interesting off the field by resolving it offscreen rather than building up to it in some way while playing the game, which is presumably what you're there for.
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Jun 14, 2015 18:22
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One of the biggest driving motivators in Changeling is the fear that the Keepers are going to come and take you back, so...
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Jun 14, 2015 18:27
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Mors Rattus posted:One of the biggest driving motivators in Changeling is the fear that the Keepers are going to come and take you back, so... The concept of getting away from your abuser and even killing him, but still having to live with it and possibly face it again in someone new is also a good story hook.
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Jun 14, 2015 20:13
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NutritiousSnack posted:The concept of getting away from your abuser and even killing him, but still having to live with it and possibly face it again in someone new is also a good story hook. Yeah! It is a good story hook. Making it the only one is unnecessarily limiting.
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Jun 14, 2015 21:24
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