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Generic Monk posted:if you're offended by lazy bullshit hack writing why are you playing loving videogames Masochism. I have a problem.
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Jun 15, 2015 08:58
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Crabtree posted:Wait, if Intelligence basically has no purpose outside of increasing XP gain, then does that mean they took out low or high intelligence conversation options? We don't know yet. We still don't have a definitive understanding of the ways in which SPECIAL stats affect perks/skills/whatever. It was pointed out that skills do not have a tab in the pip boy, BUT it was also pointed out that there is a bobblehead display with 7 SPECIAL slots and 13 slots (Which is the exact number of skills present in FNV), which means basically that everything we say at this point is about 65% conjecture.
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Jun 15, 2015 08:58
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crawlkill posted:yes, fellow human being here, I wasn't actually asking about you! did you read what I said? I said THE BROADER AUDIENCE. it wasn't about you! Yeah and I'm using my own self as a way to say that your argument is flawed. You and the other poster assumed I was a straight dude and I'm not. Read my post instead of just quoting the first line that offends you. The broader audience would be pissed because there are way more straight people than there are many other kinds of people but what I'm saying is that that obviously means nothing on a person-by-person basis. edit: made my post less rude CJacobs fucked around with this message at 09:02 on Jun 15, 2015 |
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Jun 15, 2015 08:59
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crawlkill posted:there is nothing I would rather do less Then go replay New Vegas five hundred times
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Jun 15, 2015 08:59
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Generic Monk posted:if you're offended by lazy bullshit hack writing why are you playing loving videogames there's a difference between offended and disappointed, but I think you actually meant it in the disappointed sense, so: there's been a lot more good writing in games in the past few years, even when it's the minimalist, very-little-dialogue kind of "good writing." Bethesda fills whole games to the brim with words, and those words tend to suck. it's not a foregone conclusion! there are non-sucky wordfills in games out there! it's reasonable to be disappointed. maybe not reasonable to be SURPRISED.
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Jun 15, 2015 09:00
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crawlkill posted:there's been a lot more good writing in games in the past few years, even when it's the minimalist, very-little-dialogue kind of "good writing." Bethesda fills whole games to the brim with words, and those words tend to suck. it's not a foregone conclusion! there are non-sucky wordfills in games out there! it's reasonable to be disappointed. maybe not reasonable to be SURPRISED. Also, just because video game writing currently isn't spectacular doesn't mean it couldn't be spectacular in the future, and there's nothing wrong with people wanting more from their preferred entertainment medium.
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Jun 15, 2015 09:03
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CJacobs posted:You and the other poster assumed I was a straight dude and I'm not. n...no, my post made no assumptions about you. my post was about the audience. you were the person who spoke as if queers were expected to embrace the normals; I pointed out the normals wouldn't act that way if asked to identify with queers. it wasn't about you. it was about your implicit suggestion that we, the "un-normal," should gladly immerse ourselves in explicit "normality," where the "normal" would probably reject being immersed in anything us-like. that only works if it's a two-way street, and it'd be great if it did, but I don't think it does in the society we live in. if you don't wanna sound like a (douchey) straight white dude, don't use their arguments. but I know better than to make any kind of assumptions about people who post on the intertimes.
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Jun 15, 2015 09:03
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Problematically triggered because straight cis white male
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Jun 15, 2015 09:06
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crawlkill posted:n...no, my post made no assumptions about you. my post was about the audience. you were the person who spoke as if queers were expected to embrace the normals; I pointed out the normals wouldn't act that way if asked to identify with queers. it wasn't about you. it was about your implicit suggestion that we, the "un-normal," should gladly immerse ourselves in explicit "normality," where the "normal" would probably reject being immersed in anything us-like. that only works if it's a two-way street, and it'd be great if it did, but I don't think it does in the society we live in. your posting is embarrassingly bad.
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Jun 15, 2015 09:09
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BurnBlackJay posted:Problematically triggered because straight cis white male I know this is just goofiness, but really, it's bizarre that a series that traditionally had your character as a cipher should suddenly decide to establish both a definite past and a literal voice for him or her. there are some people to whom that kind of thing matters a lot, and not just for sexitive genderous reasons. your life in the Vault or the village were totally opaque in Fallouts 1 and 2, and even Fallout 3's intro only gave a sketch to your childhood. it seems like a loss to impose a specific character on that. and it seems unnecessary. especially since Bethesda would be better off with FEWER WORDS, rather than more. Sloppy Milkshake posted:your posting is embarrassingly bad. I'll take your feedback into account officer
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Jun 15, 2015 09:10
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frajaq posted:This settlement building mechanics is loving awesome because I always wished I could stick around and help some places in Fallout 3, like improve Big Town/Republic of Dave/Arefu/Lincoln Memorial after the slaves move in. Shanty-style corrugated iron shacks are legitimately really cool, but it would be even cooler if I could build inside and around the landscape and pre-war ruins, rather than just bulldozing the old houses with a single click and making my extremely drafty clubhouse on the foundation. Seriously, that thing might survive raiders with enough turrets, but I would not want to winter there. Not in New England. Speaking of raiders... it's a total nitpick but it made me feel really good that all the raiders in New Vegas belonged to different gangs/tribes with different names. Functionally they were still just raiders and bandits, and for the most part it made exactly zero difference to gameplay, but it made a difference to how you saw the world. It wasn't just a bunch of raiders infesting half the city... it was The Fiends, and they were notorious for their drugs, which were supplied by the Great Khans who were re-purposing medical equipment the Followers were giving them. You could have just called them "raiders" and called it a day, and you wouldn't even be doing the drat Fiends an injustice... but by pointing out that they are a group called the Fiends, you change the way you see them interacting with the world. And the Fiends are different than the raiders around Novac, which are different than the raiders south of Primm, and so on. The world is full of groups of people, not just species of monster. The action trailer definitely made "raiders" seem like another type of monster like "supermutant," which is an unfortunate step back (in an extremely minor, pretty much entirely aesthetic way).
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Jun 15, 2015 09:10
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Here's hoping I can make gay robot babies with my gay robot penis in this game
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Jun 15, 2015 09:11
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crawlkill posted:I know this is just goofiness, but really, it's bizarre that a series that traditionally had your character as a cipher should suddenly decide to establish both a definite past and a literal voice for him or her. there are some people to whom that kind of thing matters a lot, and not just for sexitive genderous reasons. your life in the Vault or the village were totally opaque in Fallouts 1 and 2, and even Fallout 3's intro only gave a sketch to your childhood. it seems like a loss to impose a specific character on that. and it seems unnecessary. especially since Bethesda would be better off with FEWER WORDS, rather than more. It is a real abrupt change, which is partly why I'm so disappointed.
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Jun 15, 2015 09:11
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This thread improved 100x when I put crawlkill on ignore
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Jun 15, 2015 09:12
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crawlkill posted:n...no, my post made no assumptions about you. my post was about the audience. you were the person who spoke as if queers were expected to embrace the normals; I pointed out the normals wouldn't act that way if asked to identify with queers. it wasn't about you. it was about your implicit suggestion that we, the "un-normal," should gladly immerse ourselves in explicit "normality," where the "normal" would probably reject being immersed in anything us-like. that only works if it's a two-way street, and it'd be great if it did, but I don't think it does in the society we live in. Like I said though, "their" arguments are sound and yours is not. You asked me what would happen and I said exactly what would happen; people would freak out, rebel against change, and so on and so on. In a perfect world the game would allow you to choose your own orientation and it may very well do that, we don't know yet; or better yet, not have the arbitrary backstory at all. But obviously we don't live in a perfect world. It's not about what is or is not normal. I don't care about what's normal in this discussion. I'm saying that you, a not straight person, just like me, a not straight person, should not write off what could very well be a good video game just because the protagonist is straight. You can't identify with their sexual orientation but there's a million other things about them that you COULD identify with, and if they let you shape your character's personality, then ANYBODY could potentially identify with them. That's literally all I was implying in that post I made where I talked about myself. I agree with you that "un-normal" people would be better off if straight people were more accepting of non-straight people not just in video games but in general. It should be that way. But even if it was that way, you'd still have to deal with identifying with straight people in other media, just like they'd have to deal with identifying with us. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 09:16 on Jun 15, 2015 |
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Jun 15, 2015 09:13
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frajaq posted:Here's hoping I can make gay robot babies with my gay robot penis in this game same but unironically crawlkill posted:I'll take your feedback into account officer no but for real, your argument was "bad people from the wider audience wouldn't like it if the character was a gay, so that it makes it okay for me/us/THE GAYS to act like that." this being a staggeringly dumb way to live your life. hth
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Jun 15, 2015 09:14
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A. Beaverhausen posted:It is a real abrupt change, which is partly why I'm so disappointed. at first I was thinking about it in terms of things I've heard devs say about silent protagonists, which is that apparently it's a lot harder to write for them, but of course Fallout protags WEREN'T silent, they were just "unvoiced talkers." so I'm kind of baffled. it must've been some kind of marketing decision handed down from on high, because they could've made the same product cheaper without voice. maybe the fact that you have an identity is an excuse for narrowing down the range of choice you have in any situation? "Nuclear Shepard just wouldn't burn down the Radiorphanage!" or whatever. I dunno. it's a strange, strange choice in terms of the franchise, but I guess it's the mood of the times.
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Jun 15, 2015 09:15
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Eiba posted:Near-perfect human androids always seemed a bit out of step with Fallout's aesthetic and technology See, people keep saying this and referencing Bladerunner and poo poo, but machines replacing humans or humans finding out they're machines is a staple of mid-century scifi. Metropolis did it, Aasimov (and lots of other writers) did it, multiple Twilight Zone and Star Trek episodes did it, silver age comics loved doing it, and there are probably countless more examples. It's definitely within Fallout's wheelhouse.
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Jun 15, 2015 09:17
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Sloppy Milkshake posted:no but for real, your argument was "bad people from the wider audience wouldn't like it if the character was a gay, so that it makes it okay for me/us/THE GAYS to act like that." this being a staggeringly dumb way to live your life. hth you think it's unreasonable for minorities playing a game in a series that has traditionally allowed them full (if largely in-their-own-heads) representation to be disappointed that a sequel would strip that by forcing a particular identity and strongly identity-linked history on the player character? to extrapolate, you're saying it wouldn't be okay if women were disappointed if the protagonist were mandated to be male. "bad people from the wider [target] audience wouldn't like it if the character was [required to be] a woman, so that makes it okay for THE WOMEN to act like that." well, yeah! yeah, it does. the point is it's a pointless exclusion that erupts from nowhere and breaks the Fallout tradition of the cipher player character. you gotta try harder.
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Jun 15, 2015 09:22
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crawlkill posted:you think it's unreasonable for minorities playing a game in a series that has traditionally allowed them full (if largely in-their-own-heads) representation to be disappointed that a sequel would strip that by forcing a particular identity and strongly identity-linked history on the player character? You're really good at putting words in other peoples' mouths. First mine, now his. Either stop doing that or come up with a better argument, thanks. You're making "us faggots" look bad (your words, not mine).
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Jun 15, 2015 09:25
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crawlkill posted:welcome to the voiced protagonist! please, can I decide a few things for you? 'breederized'? where'd you pick that up? honestly a voiced main character doesn't really restrict player agency very much more compared to having fully voiced NPCs (in terms of time and development resources being allocated to different quest paths and such) and in terms of the story a pre-established character can have more complex goals and motivations that make it easier to tell something decent. i mean considering bethesda's wriitng and the playerbase they're aiming it at they likely won't, but it's possible. what's more likely to happen is that they added the prewar background for flavour (a nuclear family? holy poo poo this is deep son) or for some twist down the line in the main story (holy poo poo you're a robot etc.) i sincerely doubt your character'll be much more than a blank slate beyond the tiny bit of backstory you get in literally any rpg. not exactly a make-or-break factor for whether the game's worth playing though
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Jun 15, 2015 09:27
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CJacobs posted:You're really good at putting words in other peoples' mouths. First mine, now his. Either stop doing that or come up with a better argument, thanks. You're making "us faggots" look bad (your words, not mine). I don't know how much better I can do than quoting him. I can't address your non-point. which words weren't his, exactly? the parallel I drew between excluding queers and excluding women? that's a comparison. it's one of the things you do to illustrate things to people. equate like with like, see?
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Jun 15, 2015 09:27
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So has there been any talk by Bethesda about armoring up that dog? Cause I swear to crap, if there is one thing I truly despise in Bethesda games or any kind of open world RPG, its babysitting weak player companions and being unable to make them stronger. I don't want a game long escort quest, I want to outfit my dog with a mind controlled laser turret and 3 inch thick plate steel, and then send him back to my settlement when I'm deep in the belly of a vault to go and store all the amazing stuff we found while I stay and find more. Also I want to be able to make it look like a beagle.
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Jun 15, 2015 09:28
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I pretty much never cared about whether the character is like me or not. Because I don't care about self-insertion or wish fulfillment crap. And I certainly don't care about the need to ever 'relate' to a character to either like or understand them.
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Jun 15, 2015 09:30
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Fulchrum posted:So has there been any talk by Bethesda about armoring up that dog? Cause I swear to crap, if there is one thing I truly despise in Bethesda games or any kind of open world RPG, its babysitting weak player companions and being unable to make them stronger. I don't want a game long escort quest, I want to outfit my dog with a mind controlled laser turret and 3 inch thick plate steel, and then send him back to my settlement when I'm deep in the belly of a vault to go and store all the amazing stuff we found while I stay and find more. That dog is going to be invincible. If there isn't Doggie Power Armor DLC though I'll be real surprised.
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Jun 15, 2015 09:31
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KakerMix posted:That dog is going to be invincible. Besides, even if its invincible, it would still help for a way to improve its effectiveness so its not just gnawing on enemies ankles halfway through, you wondering why you need it.
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Jun 15, 2015 09:34
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Generic Monk posted:'breederized'? where'd you pick that up? breeder is just a super fun word for straight people, for the most part factual and not quite actually offensive but something everyone notices. no idea where I picked it up, been using it for years and years. Generic Monk posted:honestly a voiced main character doesn't really restrict player agency very much more compared to having fully voiced NPCs (in terms of time and development resources being allocated to different quest paths and such) oh, I know it doesn't -necessarily- mean anything, but it implies a sort of "throughline" to the character. any time you add in a feature people can recognize a character by, you give that character a stronger identity, and every Fallout 4 character (divided male/female) will always be recognizable by their voice. it suggests a more limited scope of personality, in the same way dialogue wheels do. Remember those conversations in Torment with 15 choices? I'm not saying every game should be like that (it should, though), but the structure of Torment allowed for a very wide range of, like--can't think of a good word for it, "self-presentations?" "character moods?" obviously not every conversation could always give you a choice that fit how you were playing Nameless, but the infrastructure was there for the developers to put in loads of moods (or whatever the best word is). Randomzx posted:I pretty much never cared about whether the character is like me or not. Because I don't care about self-insertion or wish fulfillment crap. And I certainly don't care about the need to ever 'relate' to a character to either like or understand them. if you don't feel the need to understand your character, you may find yourself at odds with a lot of RPG people. relating is another thing, of course, but that's easiest to say when you've never been put in a position of strong non-relatability.
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Jun 15, 2015 09:35
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crawlkill posted:you think it's unreasonable for minorities playing a game in a series that has traditionally allowed them full (if largely in-their-own-heads) representation to be disappointed that a sequel would strip that by forcing a particular identity and strongly identity-linked history on the player character? You selling humans sort. We are sufficient smart to "get it" even if the protagonist of a story is not our particular ethnicity or genre. You can read a book where the protagonist is a dog, or a alien from alpha centauri, and still feel moved by it. Other than that is narcissism. And I can understand narcissism, and I can understand somebody paying for narcissism or somebody selling it. On a RPG you are role playing a character, not playing yourself. Of course, the character you can roleplay can be yourself but thats like going to a costume party with your everyday dress, is like the moronic option.
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Jun 15, 2015 09:35
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crawlkill posted:
Motherfucker no human alive can relate to you
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Jun 15, 2015 09:37
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Tei posted:You selling humans sort. We are sufficient smart to "get it" even if the protagonist of a story is not our particular ethnicity or genre. You can read a book where the protagonist is a dog, or a alien from alpha centauri, and still feel moved by it. Other than that is narcissism. And I can understand narcissism, and I can understand somebody paying for narcissism or somebody selling it. that explains why 90% of games don't have butch straight white male protagonists! oh wait yes, I DO think people can reach outside themselves and get involved with a character they don't identify with. I think there's a strong assumption on the part of the industry, though, that we won't, and I think there's a lot of evidence that the crowd who currently buy most games will often not try. and I think even more strongly that people are -better- at relating to dogs or aliens than we are at relating to un-uslike humans. of course it's possible! it happens constantly in all areas of life. but the gaming industry and its primary audience isn't -good- at it, and the audience often actively rejects attempts at it (can you hear me gritting my teeth and not saying gamergate? I feel like I shouldn't say gamergate, but that's the word I'm busily not saying) KakerMix posted:Motherfucker no human alive can relate to you poo poo I've been taken down
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Jun 15, 2015 09:40
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crawlkill posted:
I was saying I don't need to 'relate' to characters to understand or like them. Because I don't need any surrogate characters to enjoy crap.
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Jun 15, 2015 09:41
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crawlkill posted:if you don't feel the need to understand your character, you may find yourself at odds with a lot of RPG people. relating is another thing, of course, but that's easiest to say when you've never been put in a position of strong non-relatability. Do you not understand straight people? They're just like you except they like the opposite sex. Just put yourself in the shoes of someone else, who likes eating pussy. One of the great things about the fallout series is that you can play someone who is really stupid, or is really smart, or can shoot a gun, or can pick a lock, none of which are things that apply to me in real life.
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Jun 15, 2015 09:41
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Tei posted:You selling humans sort. We are sufficient smart to "get it" even if the protagonist of a story is not our particular ethnicity or genre. You can read a book where the protagonist is a dog, or a alien from alpha centauri, and still feel moved by it. Other than that is narcissism. And I can understand narcissism, and I can understand somebody paying for narcissism or somebody selling it. "Don't worry, people from other backgrounds, genders or sexualities - this straight middle class 50's man will serve as a valid stand in for your experiences". Where's that John McNaughlton picture where he talks about how the common man represents every American of every class, gender, sexuality and race who is personally hurt by Obamas treason - and then made him a straight white guy?
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Jun 15, 2015 09:42
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I totally get that having more representation in games is something to strive for, but it seems like in the case of Fallout 4, they wanted to tell a story with a specific character in a specific situation and background. It's a departure from the previous games that allowed you to fill in those blanks, but it's not the same as "erasure". It would be worse if they didn't give any established background but also didn't enable you to express your gender/ethnicity/sexuality other than a presupposed norm. That's not what's happening here, or at least as far as we have seen. We don't know the plot or how the history behind the characters' family and spouse will come together in the larger story yet. So this line of criticism seems more like whining. Fallout, in the past entries, has done a pretty good job of representing characters with diverse backgrounds even at the NPC level, so maybe let's see how they go for the whole thing first?
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Jun 15, 2015 09:44
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Randomzx posted:I was saying I don't need to 'relate' to characters to understand or like them. Because I don't need any surrogate characters to enjoy crap. oh, you did say that, I misread you, sorry Farm Frenzy posted:Do you not understand straight people? They're just like you except they like the opposite sex. Just put yourself in the shoes of someone else, who likes eating pussy. One of the great things about the fallout series is that you can play someone who is really stupid, or is really smart, or can shoot a gun, or can pick a lock, none of which are things that apply to me in real life. I really have no problem with playing a 50s daddybot if the writing's any good. I'm just saying the Fallout series has a long history of not forcing you to have any particular identity, and that's being changed now for no particular reason I can see, and that's gonna alienate some people who really valued being able to play an echo of themselves--as demonstrated by a few posts in this thread, and I'm sure all over the twitterverse by now. and I'm pointing out the same argument would certainly not be forthcoming if you were forced to be a fag in your history. it's an argument you only ever hear one-way.
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Jun 15, 2015 09:46
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Why not just wait 3 minutes after it drops and download the "skip intro" mod or whatever to skip right to the part where you're a faceless idiot slaughtering your way through the wastelands At least now people are importing dumb D&D poo poo instead of moaning about graphics they saw in a 1 minute or whatever clip. That's a great sign for the game considering how hysterical goons get I plan on going dark to the outside world for at least a week when this drops, gonna loving own. Gonna play as an explosives/melee guy who lost his junk in the war and relies 100% on Buffout to maintain his physique and just pretend any voice work is voices in my head and do my best to ignore it Honestly if you need to be pandered to or whatever the last 3 pages has been about you should just roleplay harder or wait for a mod that will spoon feed it to you
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Jun 15, 2015 09:46
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Back Hack posted:This the same guy who said Fallout 3 had over 200 endings after all. Technically true. 
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Jun 15, 2015 09:47
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crawlkill posted:you think it's unreasonable for minorities playing a game in a series that has traditionally allowed them full (if largely in-their-own-heads) representation to be disappointed that a sequel would strip that by forcing a particular identity and strongly identity-linked history on the player character? yeah you're right; it's a pretty needless change that no one really wanted that has the chance to alienate a small portion of their audience who are already alienated and underrepresented in games as a whole. you're absolutely right but I just can't empathise with your sheer unbridled anger at it. just as i've no desire whatsoever to defend it as a narrative device i just don't think it's that offensive. like, it's a lovely story decision in a bethesda game. grass grows, birds fly, sun shines and bethesda writes poorly. it's forgettable apart from its dancing on the grave of an ambiguity beloved by a small portion of the fanbase. don't really know where i'm going with this but i think most people in this thread understand your anger, even if they're unable to empathise with its sheer vehemence
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Jun 15, 2015 09:48
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PerpetualSelf posted:Bethesda is so far ahead of the curve in developing actual gameplay in their games it's ridiculous. I'm stunned. late but loving lol forever at this also heres some choice bits from r/fallout http://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/comments/39vh41/where_were_you_when_todd_howard_saved_video_games/ Where were you when Todd Howard saved video games? (self.Fallout) http://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/comments/39vgyo/im_fucking_done/ I'm loving done. (self.Fallout) submitted 5 hours ago by EzioTheAssassin55 This honestly seems to be one of the best games ever made. http://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/comments/39vgv8/well_bethesda_wins_everything_ever/ Well. Bethesda wins everything ever. (self.Fallout) http://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/comments/39vg3e/slow_down_bethesda_my_dick_can_only_get_so_hard/ Slow down Bethesda, my dick can only get so hard. (self.Fallout) might want to join ur friends over there, mate
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Jun 15, 2015 09:49
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Generic Monk posted:yeah you're right; it's a pretty needless change that no one really wanted that has the chance to alienate a small portion of their audience who are already alienated and underrepresented in games as a whole. I think this sums it up my thoughts well, actually. It'll be easier to understand or maybe even join in on the criticism if it really does turn out to be a crappy design/narrative decision. Until then, it's a lot of very angry complaints about something we can only speculate about.
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Jun 15, 2015 09:50
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