|
She isn't pushy about it at all and seemed, if anything, worried that she had upset me. So I do not think the inevitable "sever" advice is necessary. Thanks though. And she's not anti-intellectual at all. If anything she's very much in favour of it, just that I think a lot of it is filtered through a teenage view of America that has caused a lot of bad poo poo to happen in her country, and then not being sure if someone didn't plan other stuff. Its understandable, but she's got an open mind and listened to what I said. If anything she was a lot more receptive than I expected. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Jun 14, 2015 |
#
?
Jun 14, 2015 17:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 15:59 |
|
|
It's not unusual for people from other countries to believe 9/11 conspiracy theories because 9/11 just isn't an important thing out there. It doesn't concern them directly so they have no reason to look into it and the US government IS responsible for all kinds of hosed up poo poo elsewhere so it's seemingly plausible to an outsider. If you give her the facts she'll probably be receptive because she's got no reason to doubt you.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2015 21:33
|
|
|
Josef bugman posted:She isn't pushy about it at all and seemed, if anything, worried that she had upset me. So I do not think the inevitable "sever" advice is necessary. Thanks though. which country is she from?
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2015 22:53
|
|
|
Yea, isn't Trutherism really popular in Europe, specifically eastern? Its like the "US Navy shot down a civilian plane" theories come from France.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 01:20
|
|
|
twistedmentat posted:Its like the "US Navy shot down a civilian plane" theories come from France.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 02:51
|
|
|
Josef bugman posted:She isn't pushy about it at all and seemed, if anything, worried that she had upset me. So I do not think the inevitable "sever" advice is necessary. Thanks though. Show her the documentary I posted a few pages back. It's just minute by minute arranged amateur footage from around NYC that day, no narration or agenda. Some are too divorced from the human element of 9/11. The idea of Americans bombing their own city to senselessly murder thousands of citizens probably makes sense in some Karmic Justice way, but it was simply an act of terror by crazy fucker jihadis, like many countries unfortunately experience all too often. Actual eyewitness accounts and documentation of the confusion, fear, and destruction as an emotional connection to reality is probably more effective than an often futile logical argument of methodologies. Also, researching ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Taliban.. Wahhabist inspired suicidal psychopaths are all over the place terrorizing the world, mostly killing other Muslims nowadays over Americans though. They loving brag on social media nowadays about it, they can't ALL be CIA holograms..
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 04:32
|
|
|
If Zeitgeist is the culprit, stat by taking down the hilariously amateur hour section on religion. It's bog-standard "Let's take lots of poo poo completely out of context, butcher translations, ignore any major differences when claiming similarities and sometimes just make stuff up for good measure" bullshit you hear from some edgy high schooler trying (badly) to remember something they read on the internet once, but with higher production values. Once you've exposed one section of the movie as low effort bullshit, doubts will hopefully creep in about the rest of it. And if their response is "Clearly all surviving material on ancient religions was faked in the modern day and the people who made Zeitgeist are the only ones to see through it!" then it really is time to sever.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 06:10
|
|
|
Its more "I do not like/trust the official line" crossed with "not really sure", she still doesn't think the USA is good as the worlds policeman (but then nor do I). Thanks for the advice though guys. And she seems to be more concerned with it being not some sort of over-arching conspiracy (once I explained what the Fed actually was) it's amazing that one little movie can cause so much trouble. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 09:11 on Jun 15, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 09:07
|
|
|
Thing is they admitted that one. The one I'm talking about is the one off Long Island. Dammit why can't I remember the name of that one?
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 17:46
|
|
|
TWA Flight 800 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 17:59
|
|
|
A Fancy 400 lbs posted:If Zeitgeist is the culprit, stat by taking down the hilariously amateur hour section on religion. It's bog-standard "Let's take lots of poo poo completely out of context, butcher translations, ignore any major differences when claiming similarities and sometimes just make stuff up for good measure" bullshit you hear from some edgy high schooler trying (badly) to remember something they read on the internet once, but with higher production values. Once you've exposed one section of the movie as low effort bullshit, doubts will hopefully creep in about the rest of it. And if their response is "Clearly all surviving material on ancient religions was faked in the modern day and the people who made Zeitgeist are the only ones to see through it!" then it really is time to sever. If it impressed her, there's no point trying to use reason. The next "oh wow look at all these things, a bassline is playing" thing will destroy all the fake critical thinking you have tenuously propped up for her.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 18:07
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:If it impressed her, there's no point trying to use reason. The next "oh wow look at all these things, a bassline is playing" thing will destroy all the fake critical thinking you have tenuously propped up for her. It convinced her at the time, specifically when she was 14, and then as she isn't a basement dwelling politics nerd like myself, and as such stored it in the old box in her brain marked "poo poo I sort of learned at a young age and am not going to question unless anyone/anything comes along to alter that". And we talked about it. I pointed out the problems and she asked me some questions that I was able to answer with "not a conspiracy" answers. Hell's, she didn't even know how the Fed worked until I explained it. Is it any wonder if you do not learn about another countries political systems other than when it is dicking around with your one that you develop a jaundiced view of the "official" line. The difference was explaining what the "counter-media" media actually got out of it, money and time and resources and so on. Oh, that and (having rechecked) she didn't watch all of it. This is the problem with people, we don't listen at all, do we? Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Jun 15, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 18:36
|
|
|
So I decided to put the crazy person hat on for once and watch Zetigeist. Two observations so far 1) The production values are surprisingly good. Its a lot better produced than your average youtube loonfest. Though I suspect much of it is its use of soundtrack. Spooky music is dense the whole way through. This has psychological impacts. 2) Theres a hugely fascist undercurrent hiding in this. From references to various jewish families to the constant quotations from white supremacist 1930s-40s congressman Charles Lindhberg. This shits got stink to it. 3) I fell asleep through most of this. edit: Standard Oil funded the Nazis? waaaaa? Standard Oil was broken up in 1911 and henceforth ceased to exist. This show just makes poo poo up. edit2: A lot of this also seems to be quoting Jordan Maxewell. Jordan Maxwell is David Icke level crazy. Reptilians. Secret cults. Astrology. The lot. duck monster fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Jun 15, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 19:13
|
|
|
They're big proponents of "If the facts don't support your conclusion, change the facts". All three parts of the movie have them just stating completely incorrect easily checkable facts and just hoping the viewer doesn't do any independent research that'll refute them.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 20:21
|
|
|
Facts totally contradict each other yet somehow supposed to make sense. Otoh this is in many ways masterful. They can just say anything and make at least some people believe this stuff. All you have to do is agree that there's something to it. I mean it's not far fetched that maybe someone's covering up the embarrasment of keeping tabs on these terrorists and failing to stop it. Or shooting down the fourth plane instead of the whole hero spiel. The rest flows from that. You might as well start believing the rest of the stuff too.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 21:29
|
|
|
Isn't zeitgeist the one that says Christianity ripped off Egyptian beliefs because Jesus was the SON of God, and Horus was a SUN god, and hey, lookit dem homophones!(ignore the fact that both of them predate English!)
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 21:45
|
|
|
Ugly In The Morning posted:Isn't zeitgeist the one that says Christianity ripped off Egyptian beliefs because Jesus was the SON of God, and Horus was a SUN god, and hey, lookit dem homophones!(ignore the fact that both of them predate English!) (Got roped into watching it  )
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 21:50
|
|
|
They also use the Halo=sun disk thingamajig.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 21:57
|
|
|
How do Zeitgeist people react to Adam Curtis? I guess they construct dissonance about all BBC being in line with the master conspiracy of lizard dominion. Here's a complete library for those who go onto other forums.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 22:03
|
|
|
McDowell posted:How do Zeitgeist people react to Adam Curtis? I guess they construct dissonance about all BBC being in line with the master conspiracy of lizard dominion. Adam Curtis is terrible. Please stop watching him.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 22:12
|
|
|
That's it. It was the first event where it seemed Conspiracies were taken seriously. Oh yea there was Waco, but that was only anti government religious nut-bags that were worried about black helicopters and looking for triangles and stars of david in everything. Not like that will ever be taken seriously.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2015 00:33
|
|
|
A Fancy 400 lbs posted:They're big proponents of "If the facts don't support your conclusion, change the facts". All three parts of the movie have them just stating completely incorrect easily checkable facts and just hoping the viewer doesn't do any independent research that'll refute them. They must've learned alot from Loose Change.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2015 04:52
|
|
|
Sir Tonk posted:They must've learned alot from Loose Change. A *lot* of Zeitgeist seems to pull its nonsense from Loose Change.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2015 12:19
|
|
|
Silver2195 posted:Adam Curtis is terrible. Please stop watching him. Care to elaborate on this opinion?
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2015 14:35
|
|
|
McDowell posted:Care to elaborate on this opinion? He loves shoehorning events into grand narratives, insinuates  things, and uses rhetorical and narrative tricks to make it seem like he's provided evidence for a claim when he hasn't. He's also an apologist for crazy people like the National Bolsheviks.
Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Jun 16, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2015 15:13
|
|
|
Silver2195 posted:He loves shoehorning events into grand narratives, insinuates Looking at all his work, I don't see any major logical gaps. Outside of traditional interviews and footage I enjoy the trippy Zinn and Zizek agitprop. Its better than some of the alternatives (Infowars, Breitbart). Fear is the mind killer. Mc Do Well fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Jun 17, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2015 00:13
|
|
|
McDowell posted:Its better than some of the alternatives (Infowars, Breitbart). I'll take "damning with faint praise" for $200, Alex.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2015 00:20
|
|
|
point of return posted:I'll take "damning with faint praise" for $200, Alex. All discourse is poo poo. We are eating from the trashcan all the time.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2015 00:39
|
|
|
McDowell posted:All discourse is poo poo. We are eating from the trashcan all the time. Maybe you are
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2015 00:43
|
|
|
Series DD Funding posted:Maybe you are She said that people tried to be good. But they were really sick and rotten on the inside, her most of all. And every time she tried to make the world a better place, something terrible came up inside her and pulled her back down into hell, and took her deeper and deeper into the blackest nightmare. Stop pretending to be one of the 'serious' people. That is the deepest form of conformity. You shouldn't ignore how the growing volume of media and the creation of echochamber cultures could drive enormous social dysfunction. By making your own walled garden you become part of the problem.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2015 00:55
|
|
|
McDowell posted:All discourse is poo poo. We are eating from the trashcan all the time. Yeah, but there's poo poo, and then there's poo poo, and then there's Infowars and Breitbart.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 07:30
|
|
|
McDowell posted:She said that people tried to be good. But they were really sick and rotten on the inside, her most of all. And every time she tried to make the world a better place, something terrible came up inside her and pulled her back down into hell, and took her deeper and deeper into the blackest nightmare. I watched Century of the Self, it was astonishingly bad, and so I won't watch any more Adam Curtis documentaries unless one is really compelling. I'm currently reading Capital in the 21st Century on the subway, do you have other suggestions
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 11:25
|
|
|
Series DD Funding posted:I watched Century of the Self, it was astonishingly bad, and so I won't watch any more Adam Curtis documentaries unless one is really compelling. I'm currently reading Capital in the 21st Century on the subway, do you have other suggestions I think 'The Mayfair Set' and 'Pandora's Box' are worth checking out. I haven't read this yet but it looks interesting. point of return posted:Yeah, but there's poo poo, and then there's poo poo, and then there's Infowars and Breitbart. I linked the ThoguthMaybe collection of Curtis documentaries because people were talking about friends/family getting into 'Zeitgeist' and other nonsense. If someone is looking for 'truth' showing them 'The Power of Nightmares' might be better than writing them off as 'one of those people' and letting them become vessels for Jones/Breitbart/etc.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 15:34
|
|
|
McDowell posted:I think 'The Mayfair Set' and 'Pandora's Box' are worth checking out. I haven't read this yet but it looks interesting. My favourite Curtis documentary is probably the one about Barrings bank. But it's important to know going into his stuff that he's entirely concerned with telling interesting stories and playing with footage, not presenting any kind of objetive truth. Hence the jokey shorts he did for Charlie Brooker.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 21:23
|
|
|
Republican Vampire posted:But it's important to know going into his stuff that he's entirely concerned with telling interesting stories and playing with footage, not presenting any kind of objetive truth. Hence the jokey shorts he did for Charlie Brooker. It's pretty important to recognize that 'objective truth' in discourse is an ideal, not something that can be attained. The tension between personal perception and objective reality is why I think Curtis likes to tell stories about scientists, since their profession has the strongest focus on objectivity. Here's a blog post where a montage of dancing people can have completely different tones just by changing the music.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2015 22:22
|
|
|
https://willyloman.wordpress.com/2015/06/21/the-ridiculous-propaganda-photos-of-sheep-dipped-dylann-storm-roof/ I can't really tell if this is satire or not. It's up there with the "crisis actor" stuff.  
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2015 20:00
|
|
|
Josef bugman posted:This is the problem with people, we don't listen at all, do we? I've read the 9/11 commission report which makes it easy to silence anyone saying there are 'some unanswered questions.' "But have you read the 9/11 commission report?" They want to deny the official reports, but they don't know what the official reports actually say.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2015 22:44
|
|
|
Sir Tonk posted:https://willyloman.wordpress.com/2015/06/21/the-ridiculous-propaganda-photos-of-sheep-dipped-dylann-storm-roof/ Um, is that not a lot of blood stains on his right sleeve there?
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2015 22:55
|
|
|
Also, here, you CAN actually barely it since he's also STANDING IN FRONT OF HIS SHADOW. Since, you know, shadows are opposite of a light source... Lightning Jim fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Jun 22, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2015 15:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 15:59 |
|
|
Crafty hoax architects, leaving meticulously photoshopped pictures on a website for HenryKrinkle to find. A less crafty architect would have just distributed the pictures to the media, but that's scrub-tier.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2015 15:28
|
|