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Hypocrisy posted:Yeah, he probably saw Renard body snatch/murder that other student. Makes sense that he's being cautious. In order to sleep with Surma, no less.
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Jun 16, 2015 03:30
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I think people would definitely think of it differently if back in that scene with Annie, he'd said "Reynard is unpredictable and dangerous. I know he seems nice, but he has literally killed people before. I need to keep you two apart for a while just I can satisfy myself that he isn't going to hurt you." As with many other things, the way you try to achieve your goals is as important as what the goals themselves are.
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Jun 16, 2015 03:48
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Intergoat for president (New Gunnerkrigg Commentated, it's chapter 24: Residential) you're welcome, vegeta
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Jun 16, 2015 04:07
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The problem with Tony's belief that Renard is dangerous is that it's really old news and an old fashioned belief. We (the reader) have been shown that he is not dangerous anymore and he truly regrets his past actions. Renard is the least dangerous of the three doggies and we love him. Tony has been away for all of this though and is out of sync with us and is still worried about how safe Renard is.
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Jun 16, 2015 06:21
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Renard will kill again.
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Jun 16, 2015 08:58
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SHISHKABOB posted:The problem with Tony's belief that Renard is dangerous is that it's really old news and an old fashioned belief. We (the reader) have been shown that he is not dangerous anymore and he truly regrets his past actions. Renard is the least dangerous of the three doggies and we love him. Tony has been away for all of this though and is out of sync with us and is still worried about how safe Renard is. No. We know Rey regrets trying to kill Annie. That is all. He's fairly remorseless regarding the dude he bodysnatched and Eglamore's buddy dragon. As the chapter with Hettie has shown, he doesn't bat an eyelash at what he thinks is justified murder.
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Jun 16, 2015 09:10
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SHISHKABOB posted:The problem with Tony's belief that Renard is dangerous is that it's really old news and an old fashioned belief. We (the reader) have been shown that he is not dangerous anymore and he truly regrets his past actions. Renard is the least dangerous of the three doggies and we love him. Tony has been away for all of this though and is out of sync with us and is still worried about how safe Renard is. Yeah, which is what Kat is getting at with her dig at the end I think. Anthony apparently had no idea what was going on his daughter's life at all. He made no effort to communicate or even find out even trivial details about what his daughter is going through. He probably has very compelling personal reasons for this, but as far as "being a good parent to your daughter" goes, he's completely failed. His ignorance is the worst part, because he is a dude who probably is very particular and careful when it comes to his job/science. He has the means, contacts in the court (Donnie) and communication equipment but circumstances/personality issues caused him to not do it. Thus he is not in position to really know whats best for his daughter who is pretty much a stranger to him. The Donlans and Egalmore are much better custodians at this point. Hettie was planning on murdering that poor kid and apparently as the posters below have stated that Rey has been visiting the grave of the dude he killed. If he was truly flippant about it, i doubt Egalmore would be hanging out with him. If anyone has a reason to hate Rey, Egalmore does. It's probably complicated. JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 10:12 on Jun 16, 2015 |
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Jun 16, 2015 09:36
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Iceclaw posted:No. We know Rey regrets trying to kill Annie. That is all. He's fairly remorseless regarding the dude he bodysnatched He was visiting his grave.
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Jun 16, 2015 09:55
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Lurdiak posted:He was visiting his grave.
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Jun 16, 2015 10:05
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Iceclaw posted:No. We know Rey regrets trying to kill Annie. That is all. He's fairly remorseless regarding the dude he bodysnatched and Eglamore's buddy dragon. As the chapter with Hettie has shown, he doesn't bat an eyelash at what he thinks is justified murder. Literally the purpose of the chapter was to show how wrong you are. It's actually kind of amazing.
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Jun 16, 2015 10:45
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ProfessorCirno posted:Literally the purpose of the chapter was to show how wrong you are. It's actually kind of amazing. haha I wonder if Tony really hasn't noticed the maker's mark on Renard
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Jun 16, 2015 11:10
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Bongo Bill posted:Renard will kill again. Yeah he'll kill some person that he thinks is dangerous to Kat or Annie or something like that, but he's not going to hurt them. intentionally EmmyOk posted:haha Well seeing as how it only appears when Renard "shows himself"...
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Jun 16, 2015 12:16
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Bongo Bill posted:Renard will kill again. If he eats a bird does that count? Birds talk after all.
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Jun 16, 2015 12:31
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ProfessorCirno posted:Literally the purpose of the chapter was to show how wrong you are. It's actually kind of amazing. I stand corrected regarding the guy, but Rey still states that he bested the Dragon in a fair fight, implying it's somehow okay. Don't get me wrong: Rey has mellowed considerably, and has found a higher cause than "Sleeping with Surmia", but he's still willing to go pretty far when he thinks he must.
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Jun 16, 2015 12:45
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SHISHKABOB posted:
Sure, sure. My mistake. Still though I'd be surprised from him to be totally fooled. If Renard can disobey him surely he'd ask himself "how is that possible?" and pretty quickly arrive at "because I don't have his bond".
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Jun 16, 2015 13:41
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Tuxedo Ted posted:Intergoat for president Thug life jokes never get old
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Jun 16, 2015 13:41
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Iceclaw posted:Rey still states that he bested the Dragon in a fair fight, implying it's somehow okay. Well that's kind of the moral justification all of humanity tends to use for killing in war, so it's not exactly that crazy. If you're both trying to kill one another, and you win, that's not murder.
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Jun 16, 2015 14:49
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Jun 16, 2015 15:00
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Win and live. Lose and die. Rule of life. No change rule.
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Jun 16, 2015 19:56
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There is a pretty big difference between killing someone in combat (even if you are the initiator) and murdering your pal to go chasing after the woman you love of a different species.
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Jun 16, 2015 20:04
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Killing someone in combat because you're trying to run away after having murdered a man. e; If you kill someone and then while trying to get away you kill an officer in a police chase it's still murder. YF-23 fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Jun 16, 2015 |
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Jun 16, 2015 20:09
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EmmyOk posted:There is a pretty big difference between killing someone in combat (even if you are the initiator) and murdering your pal to go chasing after the woman you love of a different species. So if a prisoner kills a guard while trying to escape, you don't think it is murder?
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Jun 16, 2015 20:20
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Fried Chicken posted:So if a prisoner kills a guard while trying to escape, you don't think it is murder? if the imprisonment is unjust, sure.
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Jun 16, 2015 20:24
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Fried Chicken posted:So if a prisoner kills a guard while trying to escape, you don't think it is murder? That is not what I said at all. I am just saying the two things are different, I made no comment on morality.
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Jun 16, 2015 20:47
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A big flaming stink posted:if the imprisonment is unjust, sure. Wrong (and in any case, Rey's was as just as can be). EmmyOk posted:That is not what I said at all. I am just saying the two things are different, I made no comment on morality. Unless the combat kill is self-defence, the two things are not much different at all.
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Jun 16, 2015 20:53
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We don't actually know how the fight between Sivo and Renard went, it is a fair possibility that if he did not take Sivo's body he would have been killed. As for just, that is a bit disingenuous. He was obsessed with Surma and the court used that to manipulate him. It was that manipulation that compelled him to seek out a means to take a human body.
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Jun 16, 2015 20:57
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With the way Renard and Eglamore interact, it seems pretty clear that at least those two think that there is a big moral difference between killing someone in a fair fight and murdering him. Even if that attitude is more fitting for some kind of fantasy setting then the modern civilized world. Actually the attitude that Annie and Kat take with regards to Renard's enslavement might be a hint that they also agree with that medieval attitude towards killing.
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Jun 16, 2015 21:03
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EmmyOk posted:We don't actually know how the fight between Sivo and Renard went, it is a fair possibility that if he did not take Sivo's body he would have been killed. As for just, that is a bit disingenuous. He was obsessed with Surma and the court used that to manipulate him. It was that manipulation that compelled him to seek out a means to take a human body. If you get manipulated into killing someone like Renard was (Coyote telling him he can't be sure the bodysnatch will kill the original guy) you are still culpable for letting yourself be manipulated into killing someone. I'm sure Coyote would be legally considered equally responsible in most modern legal systems too. And Sivo is still murder because none of it would've happened if Renard had accepted the consequences of his literal murder of a human being.
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Jun 16, 2015 21:29
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YF-23 posted:If you get manipulated into killing someone like Renard was (Coyote telling him he can't be sure the bodysnatch will kill the original guy) you are still culpable for letting yourself be manipulated into killing someone. I'm sure Coyote would be legally considered equally responsible in most modern legal systems too. You are still culpable sure, but it is very strange that you are saying the two deaths are the same. Your second point doesn't follow very well. X wouldn't have happened if Y hadn't happened can be applied to any situation. It all wouldn't have happened if Surma hadn't met Renard etc. How much of Sivo/Renard did we see? Renard took the body and then what? Did Sivo chase him down? Renard absolutely did murder his pal. Sivo then presumably pursued him. If they engaged in a fight to the death it's understandable that he fought for self-preservation even if he regretted what he did to Daniel(?). I am not saying Renard is entirely innocent or that how he is now excuses what he did. but I absolutely am saying Sivo and Daniel's deaths are very different. If it was a fight to the death do you think Renard should have let himself be killed? e: Considering the Court's aims it is entirely possible Sivo was trying to capture him so they could imprison Renard for life or experiment on him. However I think killing someone in combat to escape that fate is still the same as above.
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Jun 16, 2015 21:40
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We agree on how we assume things went down (Renard tried to escape, Sivo was with the search party trying to find him, when he found him they engaged in combat). But Renard at that point was an escaped murderer. What he should've done wasn't to let himself be killed, it was let himself be arrested. Instead he resisted arrest and killed one of his pursuers. That is murder.
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Jun 16, 2015 22:18
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Jun 16, 2015 22:20
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YF-23 posted:We agree on how we assume things went down (Renard tried to escape, Sivo was with the search party trying to find him, when he found him they engaged in combat). But Renard at that point was an escaped murderer. What he should've done wasn't to let himself be killed, it was let himself be arrested. Instead he resisted arrest and killed one of his pursuers. That is murder. Well he wasn't going to be imprisoned by the police but by the people who all along had the intention of imprisoning him prior to him taking Daniel. When you see how he was imprisoned, in a dark warehouse with a steel pin through his, it is very different to how someone is typically jailed. BravestOfTheLamps posted:Are you unable to distinguish between fiction and reality? There is no "literal" murder, this is fiction. You wail as if these are Real people. I'm not saying you should be callous, you simply cannot seem to grasp this story on an aesthetic level, and withdraw into Otherkinism by repeating the "facts" as if this wasn't a fantasy story set in an off-kilter, highly subjective reality. You're trying to apply moral judgement as if this was an actual case and not an element ina larger story. So people should not discuss a story? Ok cool. It seems silly to try and stifle a fun conversation about a character's motivations or theories about why things may have happened. Or to discuss competing ideas on interpretations.
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Jun 16, 2015 22:28
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Jun 16, 2015 22:58
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:There is an appreciable difference between "the crimes Reynard has committed are an example of hidden, painful histories that are a principal motif in Gc" and "he murdered a guy. He murdered a guy. He murdered a guy. Reynard murdered a guy". YF-23 is basi ally an Otherkin. Sure I'll agree to that. I don't really know what otherkin is though. I thought they dressed up as foxes and things.
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Jun 16, 2015 23:03
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:There is an appreciable difference between "the crimes Reynard has committed are an example of hidden, painful histories that are a principal motif in Gc" and "he murdered a guy. He murdered a guy. He murdered a guy. Reynard murdered a guy". YF-23 is basi ally an Otherkin. Look I've said in the past that you can't take everything is a story too literally, but you also can't swing it in the opposite direction too hard either and take everything as allegory, because then the story breaks down with no concrete events for characters and the audience to react too. Within the context of the universe he is a murderer twice over. You can't divorce meaning from context. Renard's past is tragic in general, but the specific nature of his crimes also influences how the characters, narrative and audience, both in general and as individuals, react to him and to his development. Renard murdered what's his face for obsessive 'love', but killed Sivo resisting arrest(/avoiding a worse fate). Does Renard make a distinction between those two deaths? Do the other characters? Do we as the audience? What does any difference, or lack thereof, say about Renard, about the narrative, about us? Answering "Renard's past is tragic and painful" is one potential answer, but it's an incomplete one. That's a descriptor that conveys no meaning, no thought. Renard's past and redemption is a central facet of the story, but the specifics of it matter- if Renard had been in love with someone other than Surma, his relationship with Annie would be very different, right? Or how Renard tested the body-snatch power, found that it kills the host, and still used it, but what if Coyote had told Renard that taking a body leaves it unharmed and he went off without testing- this paints a very different picture of his actions, and thus of his redemption, and people are going to have very different reactions to that. Mazerunner fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Jun 16, 2015 |
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Jun 16, 2015 23:31
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Mazerunner posted:Renard's past and redemption is a central facet of the story, but the specifics of it matter- if Renard had been in love with someone other than Surma, his relationship with Annie would be very different, right? Renard tested the body-snatch power, found that it kills the host, and still used it, but what if Coyote had told Renard that taking a body leaves it unharmed and he went off without testing- this paints a very different picture of his actions, and thus of his redemption, and people are going to have very different reactions to that. I've been wondering a lot about this. I also wonder if Coyote purposefully gave Renard the power with that flaw.
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Jun 16, 2015 23:36
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EmmyOk posted:I've been wondering a lot about this. I also wonder if Coyote purposefully gave Renard the power with that flaw.
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Jun 16, 2015 23:43
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Are you unable to distinguish between fiction and reality? There is no "literal" murder, this is fiction. You wail as if these are Real people. I'm not saying you should be callous, you simply cannot seem to grasp this story on an aesthetic level, and withdraw into Otherkinism by repeating the "facts" as if this wasn't a fantasy story set in an off-kilter, highly subjective reality. You're trying to apply moral judgement as if this was an actual case and not an element ina larger story. The story's fantasy techno-magic Hogwarts is still somewhere in what we recognise as the United Kingdom of Great Britain. The story is not divorced enough from our reality that we are supposed to suspend our disbelief and ignore the basics of western civilisation like crime and murder. There is an element of that in the forest (and Renard's part of that, and his attitude towards his battle with Sivo is a good example) - but that part of the story co-exists with the human "the audience can actually relate to this" part of it. Renard is in fact moving towards that side by rejecting to some extent the petty attitude demanded by demigodhood and the Hetty chapter was meant to highlight that. If we weren't supposed to think that Renard committed literal murder he would not have felt remorse about it.
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Jun 16, 2015 23:56
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JT Jag posted:Of course he did, he's Coyote. He is so sneaky. Tbh despite his easygoing and funloving nature he is quite dangerous and perhaps The Court trying to pull her away from him is a good thing and not solely them being horrible jerks. I wonder if Coyote is older than Jones
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Jun 17, 2015 00:03
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EmmyOk posted:He is so sneaky. Tbh despite his easygoing and funloving nature he is quite dangerous and perhaps The Court trying to pull her away from him is a good thing and not solely them being horrible jerks. I wonder if Coyote is older than Jones The answer, I think, is that "the ether is weird and can bend reality and time."
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Jun 17, 2015 00:09
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