SunAndSpring posted:The disconnect between what Todd Howard wants (a good story that meshes perfectly with open-ended and open-world gameplay) and what Todd has done (forced the player to have a set voice and restrictive backstory, as well as restricting dialogue to just 4 buttons) is about as wide and vast as the Grand Canyon. During Oblivion's development T. Howard took a trip to Louisiana to consult with a local woman who was a known witch just to determine whether or not the game should have stuck to Morrowind's "rudimentary" noun dialogue system (i.e. "Wizard Tower", "Ransom", "Smugglers", etc.) It's said that the woman threw chicken bones like dice and "read" incense smoke before telling Howard, "No voice actors."
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Jun 18, 2015 06:39
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Praetorian Mage posted:Sure, but I never wanted a family in the first place. God forbid I want to define my character's identity for myself in a genre where that's one of the selling points. You're gonna have a family and you'll like it
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Jun 18, 2015 06:40
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Praetorian Mage posted:Sure, but I never wanted a family in the first place. God forbid I want to define my character's identity for myself in a genre where that's one of the selling points. Exactly how many RPGs have you played?
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Jun 18, 2015 06:42
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frajaq posted:You're gonna have a family and you'll like it There are already enough broken households in the world as is, I would hope Fallout 4 doesn't reward the player for making another one.
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Jun 18, 2015 06:42
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Sharkopath posted:There are already enough broken households in the world as is, I would hope Fallout 4 doesn't reward the player for making another one.
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Jun 18, 2015 06:43
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I think that a big problem with the Fallout 3 and New Vegas storylines was the lack of starting stakes. Fallout and Fallout 2 start right off with a strong initial goal: you need to save your vault/village by fetching a thing, or else everyone's going to die. Right out of the gate you're set up as a very important person who needs to save a bunch of people. Now, you're totally free to just ignore that poo poo and go do whatever, but the high start stakes made the game interesting right from the beginning. Fallout 3 just sort of kicks you out of the vault and tells you to find your dad. Fallout New Vegas has you waking up in some guys house after almost dying. This is a lot more exciting than Fallout 3's start, but the stakes are still pretty low. There's nothing stopping a normal person in that situation from just saying "nah, gently caress that, I already almost died once" and going somewhere else. Hopefully Fallout 4 starts out with higher stakes, like the earlier games.
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Jun 18, 2015 06:45
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chitoryu12 posted:Exactly how many RPGs have you played? Enough to think that taking this much control away from the player is a bad idea.
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Jun 18, 2015 06:46
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Praetorian Mage posted:Enough to think that taking this much control away from the player is a bad idea. I think you're exaggerating a bit
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Jun 18, 2015 06:49
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QuarkJets posted:Hopefully Fallout 4 starts out with higher stakes, like the earlier games. We already know that Fallout 4 starts with a man being flushed out of Vault 111 like Keanu Reeves getting kicked out of the battery farm from The Matrix. Eyes adjusting to the sun, he beholds a nuclear hellscape (and also his robot butler). The robot butler tells him he's been dead or something for two hundred years, which doesn't make any sense because he feels like he's still alive, but only Methuselah lived for more than two hundred years. The plot is trying to figure out what the hell is going on. "QUEST: A BLAST IN THE PAST" -Find out if the robot butler is lying -Find out if you are dead -Find out what the hell is going on Cream-of-Plenty fucked around with this message at 06:54 on Jun 18, 2015 |
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Jun 18, 2015 06:52
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Praetorian Mage posted:Enough to think that taking this much control away from the player is a bad idea. But it's not taking control away from the player. No more than many, many RPGs before it. Except for the ones that completely wipe your character's backstory and make you a lone drifter with no past, which often give you little agency outside of game things like combat in the first place.
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Jun 18, 2015 07:01
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chitoryu12 posted:Exactly how many RPGs have you played? Well, I really liked it in Oblivion and Skyrim, where they put you in a situation that draws you into the plot but are super vague as to HOW you got there and who you are, letting you fill in the details with whatever you want. New Vegas does something similar, so I don't see why that wasn't an option this time around. VV Edit: Yeah, BioWare made their games more open-world, so Bethesda seems to be trying to prove they can make their games more narrative-heavy, but they have no idea what makes BioWare games popular so they're just copying everything they do. Random Asshole fucked around with this message at 07:12 on Jun 18, 2015 |
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Jun 18, 2015 07:02
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chitoryu12 posted:But it's not taking control away from the player. No more than many, many RPGs before it. Except for the ones that completely wipe your character's backstory and make you a lone drifter with no past, which often give you little agency outside of game things like combat in the first place. Compared to the previous Fallouts and every other Bethesda game, it is taking away control. This is not Bioware.
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Jun 18, 2015 07:02
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QuarkJets posted:Fallout New Vegas has you waking up in some guys house after almost dying. This is a lot more exciting than Fallout 3's start, but the stakes are still pretty low. There's nothing stopping a normal person in that situation from just saying "nah, gently caress that, I already almost died once" and going somewhere else. It takes a very particular type of person to want to get out of a doctors house immediately after being shot and left for dead to 'confront' these assailants. Particularly if they're obviously from a powerful position and you're just some wastrel with a pistol and miles of wasteland death between you and your very vague 'goal'. In terms of defining your 'backstory' you have to immediately assume a lot of your character. Almost psychotically resilient to any form of psychological danger, unwillingness to settle etc. If you're from the west like its stated in Lonesome Road why not get the hell back to California and find another jerb in safer climes. From their casual dialogue, NCR troopers can't wait to get the gently caress back home and away from a big scorching desert warzone and its robot dictator overlord ruling a gambling city.
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Jun 18, 2015 07:06
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chitoryu12 posted:But it's not taking control away from the player. Yes it is. From the looks of it, it seems like there will be a hidden personality score that will be determined by what "mood" of dialogue options you choose, which will in turn automatically select your character's attitude in future conversations and play differently-acted lines accordingly. Imagine playing Mass Effect and being a Paragon most of the time, but wanting to make a Renegade quip every now and then, only the game won't let you because you've built up too many Paragon points beforehand. chitoryu12 posted:No more than many, many RPGs before it. Except for the ones that completely wipe your character's backstory and make you a lone drifter with no past, which often give you little agency outside of game things like combat in the first place. New Vegas gave you very little backstory beyond "You're a courier who got shot for one of his packages", and everyone gushes about how much player agency it offered. Edit: Another thing. I'm seeing several people claim that there being 13,000 lines of recorded dialogue for the main character means we'll have a lot of options. However, based on this new information, it looks like a lot of those lines could just be the same line delivered slightly differently. Praetorian Mage fucked around with this message at 07:15 on Jun 18, 2015 |
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Jun 18, 2015 07:08
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Bicyclops posted:I think that if the dog dies in a scripted event, it will actually be kind of sad, as I like the dog. I honestly think the dog will just be one of many optional companions. In the E3 demo there seemed to be a speech option to dismiss him.
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Jun 18, 2015 07:15
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It's always your actions as a player on the Wastelands that matter, also there's nothing wrong with some backstory so you can feel even the tiniest invested in the main quest or what not. Like I was never motivated in the TES series to do the Main Quest exactly because I was a blank character. In fallout 3 you learn more about your dad, people he worked with, his journals and poo poo. Then Enclave assholes murder him and take the purifier for themselves? poo poo yeah I wanna kill them, even I'm Bad karma
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Jun 18, 2015 07:19
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chitoryu12 posted:That's not really what I was asking. The current criticism is that having four dialogue options at each time you can talk available will somehow greatly restrict player choice. Never mind that we haven't confirmed this is the case, but I was asking how many times in Fallout 3 and New Vegas you were given a new choice in the dialogue tree and it had more than 3 or 4 options. Oh. Misread it a bit. In THAT case, my memory's fuzzy. Been a bit since I last fired up NV. But constantly having four things to say sounds... doublesided. On one end, they could be a variety of options that could actually improve player choice. On the other end, having to have four things to say to loving EVERYTHING will inevitably strain something out to a point where it's literally the same quote said in a different tone. As far as your original question goes, I don't really think there was much choice in the dialogue trees of NV outside of potential murder and backstory now that I think about it. ... actually. Why isn't there an RPG where "I wanna go home" is a viable and usable option?
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Jun 18, 2015 07:21
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A. Beaverhausen posted:Compared to the previous Fallouts and every other Bethesda game, it is taking away control. This is not Bioware. Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 had you have very defined set backstories that you couldn't alter that were critical to the character. Fallout 3 obviously did too but I assume people are talking about the classic Fallout games here. You absolutely did not set your own backstory in Fallout 1 or 2. You were put into a specific role that you could define by your actions but you didn't have much of a choice of being a vault dweller looking for a water chip/tribal looking for a Geck for your dying village I mean I guess you can argue that FO4 has a 'harder' backstory but Fallout has never (except maybe New Vegas) been about complete blank slates. Edit: I mean that said I don't like the four-choice option but just because it means that speech options are way less likely to be viable and varied and that was one of the best parts of New Vegas, but maybe I'll be surprised. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 07:28 on Jun 18, 2015 |
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Jun 18, 2015 07:22
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widespread posted:... actually. Why isn't there an RPG where "I wanna go home" is a viable and usable option? There are, actually. The one I'm thinking of has you starting in the first floor of a dungeon, and you can quite literally turn around and head up the stairs and end the game before you ever press further.
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Jun 18, 2015 07:27
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Praetorian Mage posted:Edit: Another thing. I'm seeing several people claim that there being 13,000 lines of recorded dialogue for the main character means we'll have a lot of options. However, based on this new information, it looks like a lot of those lines could just be the same line delivered slightly differently. Couple it with the Mass Effect-style reuseable generic voice clips and that's gotta make for a great recording session. "What's next? "Now we're on 'NOOOOO!!!' First, give us a baseline." "NOOOOO!!!" "Okay, now do it again, but this time more sad." "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" "Right, now you're angry." "NOOO!!!" "Now, do it as a question." "... NOooooo!?!" "Sure, that works. Alright, now do it snarky." "What the hell does that even mean?" "Well, I guess that means do it like... you're ironically upset? Or maybe sarcastically, like 'No poo poo, Sherlock'?" "Right.... NoOoOoO... ?" "Good enough. Alright, take a fiver, next up we have 'What do you want me to do?'"
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Jun 18, 2015 07:27
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:There are, actually. The one I'm thinking of has you starting in the first floor of a dungeon, and you can quite literally turn around and head up the stairs and end the game before you ever press further. Oh neat. What's the game's name? I'm curious now.
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Jun 18, 2015 07:29
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Bethesda games give me the the weirdest feelings; like a perverse blend of both genuine and ironic excitement. I'm really excited to play the game and explore and shoot stuff up, but I also can't wait to see how piss poor the dialogue and plot is.chitoryu12 posted:That's not really what I was asking. The current criticism is that having four dialogue options at each time you can talk available will somehow greatly restrict player choice. Never mind that we haven't confirmed this is the case, but I was asking how many times in Fallout 3 and New Vegas you were given a new choice in the dialogue tree and it had more than 3 or 4 options.
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Jun 18, 2015 07:29
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widespread posted:Oh neat. What's the game's name? I'm curious now. "human being quest"
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Jun 18, 2015 07:32
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Random rear end in a top hat posted:Couple it with the Mass Effect-style reuseable generic voice clips and that's gotta make for a great recording session. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k78VTJSS_6g
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Jun 18, 2015 07:33
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RIP the fat guy who died. I wish he was the voice actor in this game.
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Jun 18, 2015 07:36
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Praetorian Mage posted:Yes it is. From the looks of it, it seems like there will be a hidden personality score that will be determined by what "mood" of dialogue options you choose, which will in turn automatically select your character's attitude in future conversations and play differently-acted lines accordingly. Imagine playing Mass Effect and being a Paragon most of the time, but wanting to make a Renegade quip every now and then, only the game won't let you because you've built up too many Paragon points beforehand. You have been a huge insufferable baby about this poo poo for pages now. The vast majority of people playing a fallout game rarely think much about their character's backstory beyond 'He'll support this faction, and be a sneaky dude with energy weapons'. Of course you can play the game however you like, and you're more than welcome to write out a detailed fanfiction for your single player character that no one else will ever see or give a poo poo about if that's what you enjoy, but you really need to accept that you're in an extreme minority and no one is going to cater to you. I'm sorry you're just going to have to wait a few weeks for mods until you can play your genderfluid anime OC or whatever it is you're insisting on, but thems the breaks.
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Jun 18, 2015 07:37
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widespread posted:Oh neat. What's the game's name? I'm curious now. Nethack, which I've jokingly brought up a few times as an example of the kind of grognardy game some people in this thread seem to want Fallout to be. It's a roguelike, so obviously limited in graphics and sound, but the main appeal is the gameplay. It's crunchy as hell and has a permadeath system (you can save scum at the cost of being looked down upon by fans). There's massive loads of detail, a lot of which is liable to result in your death because of something you could have never predicted would happen. Likewise, there's tons of exploits and neat things you can do that you wouldn't expect based on interactions with how things in the game work. It's not a bad game, just really different from Fallout. Praetorian Mage posted:Yes it is. From the looks of it, it seems like there will be a hidden personality score that will be determined by what "mood" of dialogue options you choose, which will in turn automatically select your character's attitude in future conversations and play differently-acted lines accordingly. Imagine playing Mass Effect and being a Paragon most of the time, but wanting to make a Renegade quip every now and then, only the game won't let you because you've built up too many Paragon points beforehand. Is this in an interview I missed? Can you source this thing? A. Beaverhausen posted:Compared to the previous Fallouts and every other Bethesda game, it is taking away control. This is not Bioware. Name one Fallout game that doesn't "take away control" to this degree that's not New Vegas. This is a series where the first two games outright gave you a hard time limit to force you to complete the main quest and had no alternate endings or choice of faction whatsoever. New Vegas is the only game in the series that actually has a blank slate PC and open-ended story with multiple paths. You're acting like Bethesda somehow does things differently, when in reality their emphasis on storyline and the main quest is at most as high as Black Isle.
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Jun 18, 2015 07:43
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But I don't want to play a grown up who might have responsibilities  I think the real problem here is triggered manchildren
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Jun 18, 2015 07:50
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ImpAtom posted:Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 had you have very defined set backstories that you couldn't alter that were critical to the character. Fallout 3 obviously did too but I assume people are talking about the classic Fallout games here. You absolutely did not set your own backstory in Fallout 1 or 2. You were put into a specific role that you could define by your actions but you didn't have much of a choice of being a vault dweller looking for a water chip/tribal looking for a Geck for your dying village Yes, but they don't tell you what kind of person you were, and they don't dictate how you respond to things by color coding them and weighting your responses exactly like freaking Dragons Age 2. You had a purpose and an origin sure, but your personality was never perfectly defined.
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Jun 18, 2015 07:50
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chitoryu12 posted:Is this in an interview I missed? Can you source this thing? From the reddit post: "The voice actors briefly mentioned that there will be about 8 different types of character personalities based on dialog (good guy, cocky, evil, selfish, etc)" If there are only ever four color-coded dialogue options, and they don't tell you what you'll actually say, I don't see how else you can diverge into this many personality types without adding up some kind of score in the background. Unless they just meant to say "I recorded one line where I said 'I'll help you', one line where I said 'I'll help you because clearly you're not as tough as me', 'I'll help you if you pay me', etc."
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Jun 18, 2015 07:54
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chitoryu12 posted:New Vegas is the only game in the series that actually has a blank slate PC and open-ended story with multiple paths. That said, I don't really give much of a poo poo about the forced marriage debacle because I always play with customized start mods anyway, but I do hope the latter half of the quote with regards to the open-ended and branching path narrative isn't thrown out the window for Bethesda's next masterpiece of drama and storytelling.
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Jun 18, 2015 07:56
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Yeah, the whole thing will be moot when they upload an Alternate Start mod within a month or so of release so I don't think it's worth getting very worked up over, dumb as it is. One playthrough the way the devs intended won't kill me, plus I get to take a shot every time I hit a plot point that was predicted months before the game came out.
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Jun 18, 2015 08:00
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The first Fallouts and nearly no RPG ever (that I've ever played, but I hate the Witcher so ymmv) has put you into a relationship at the beginning of the game, given you an off spring that is yours and essentially forced a religion on you. I mean, I see a lot of you defending this, but it's frankly something I don't see much outside of narratives that are more common in first person shooter games and the like. But I guess if you count Bioshock as an RPG, then that'd explain why you'd be okay with this. Personally though, I accept a certain amount of limits pushed on my character, like where he came from, where he grew up, what his past family was, his siblings, mother, father and such stuff. But spouse and child? That is really something I would like a say in, for an RPG. Otherwise I'm just playing someone elses character after they left the game and that makes me super uncomfortable. But I'm okay with it assuming they are fake memories put in my head as I'm an android, so don't expect me to be boycotting or anything. I'm thoroughly hyped, it just put a damper on it for me, is all. You can't erase that, but you apparently can ridicule me for feeling that way. As for mods on consoles, at the announcement itself, they specifically said "mods available, for free, on Xbox One", so I think that's already settled. And for those of you worried about the brief mention of Bethesda.net, I'd encourage you to visit the website right now and try to remember what their website looked like before, if you were visited it. It was a giant hot mess and I think they just took the opportunity to say "oh and we're fixing our website, making it a bit nicer" and not exactly force some sort of launcher page like uPlay, Origin or anything like that.
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Jun 18, 2015 08:04
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Random rear end in a top hat posted:plus I get to take a shot every time I hit a plot point that was predicted months before the game came out. Please don't die 
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Jun 18, 2015 08:04
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SexyCommando posted:I don't agree with the guy that the older games didn't force you into a plot, but the fact that Bethesda might be ignoring the progress that Obsidian made for their own (kinda) series is disheartening. Just because New Vegas was an outlier doesn't mean it didn't also have the best approach. Different approach, not the best approach. I do think New Vegas was the best in the series, but it doesn't mean that "blank slate and a ton of endings" is necessarily the #1 approach to video game RPGs. Many of the most famous RPGs in gaming history have had linear main quests and established characterization and backstory for the PC. It's not all just emulation of tabletop games where players make everything from scratch. And you can't say that the more linear and story/characterization-heavy games like Final Fantasy, Knights of the Old Republic, Kingdom Hearts, Fire Emblem, etc. aren't "really RPGs". A blank slate character with no backstory that's not made up by the player isn't the defining aspect of video game RPGs. New Vegas is a different approach, yes, and some may like it better. But it's not "the best" any more than saying that a first-person shooter has to be fast-paced and involve rocket jumping and invincibility power-ups. There's different permutations of the genre, and suggesting that any of them are inherently superior to the other or that switching types is "progress" is implying that only your definition of fun counts.
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Jun 18, 2015 08:10
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chitoryu12 posted:Different approach, not the best approach. I do think New Vegas was the best in the series, but it doesn't mean that "blank slate and a ton of endings" is necessarily the #1 approach to video game RPGs. chitoryu12 posted:implying that only your definition of fun counts. 
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Jun 18, 2015 08:14
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Praetorian Mage posted:From the reddit post: You're assuming a lot from one sentence. What about nested dialogue?
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Jun 18, 2015 08:20
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chitoryu12 posted:And you can't say that the more linear and story/characterization-heavy games like Final Fantasy, Knights of the Old Republic, Kingdom Hearts, Fire Emblem, etc. aren't "really RPGs". A blank slate character with no backstory that's not made up by the player isn't the defining aspect of video game RPGs. New Vegas is a different approach, yes, and some may like it better. But it's not "the best" any more than saying that a first-person shooter has to be fast-paced and involve rocket jumping and invincibility power-ups. There's different permutations of the genre, and suggesting that any of them are inherently superior to the other or that switching types is "progress" is implying that only your definition of fun counts. Well, I'm sorry, but I don't think (most) Final fantasy games, kingdom hearts games or Fire Emblem games are RPG's. They use RPG mechanics, but generally are pre-determined storyline games where the focus isn't on roleplaying, but adventuring. I reckon most people would still catalog them as RPG's, but they really aren't, not by a post-modern definition, as the line between RPG's and other genres are growing weaker and weaker. A lot of people consider Zelda games to be RPG's for instance, but it isn't. Knights of the Old Republic is full on an RPG though, because you get plenty of free room to roleplay and determine your character, even if your past was determined for you, you are given plenty of evidence that it was the way to go for your character, even if your current goals no longer support your past.
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Jun 18, 2015 08:24
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I like when people start getting mad about "Only playing your way" because a lot of the complaints aren't about playing in one specific way, they're about having the game open so people can play however they want, instead of being forced to play one way.ImpAtom posted:Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 had you have very defined set backstories that you couldn't alter that were critical to the character. Fallout 3 obviously did too but I assume people are talking about the classic Fallout games here. You absolutely did not set your own backstory in Fallout 1 or 2. You were put into a specific role that you could define by your actions but you didn't have much of a choice of being a vault dweller looking for a water chip/tribal looking for a Geck for your dying village It's been said before but "Guy from a vault" and "Guy from wasteland tribe with parents" are different from "Guy from the suburbs with a wife and kid and military past." Unless I've been missing a lot of details the game tells you about your life in the first two fallouts, they don't really tell you much other than basic things like "hey, you live in a vault and now you have to get this water chip back so we don't all die" who your character is, is up to you still.
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Jun 18, 2015 08:25
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Mordaedil posted:Well, I'm sorry, but I don't think (most) Final fantasy games, kingdom hearts games or Fire Emblem games are RPG's. They use RPG mechanics, but generally are pre-determined storyline games where the focus isn't on roleplaying, but adventuring. I reckon most people would still catalog them as RPG's, but they really aren't, not by a post-modern definition, as the line between RPG's and other genres are growing weaker and weaker. A lot of people consider Zelda games to be RPG's for instance, but it isn't. The only actual definition of roleplaying video game is "Well-developed storyline and narrative, complex world with immersion, and character development." There's absolutely zero requirement for a video game RPG to have an open-ended storyline or player-driven characterization. You're committing a typical No True Scotsman fallacy.
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Jun 18, 2015 08:27
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