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Rumda posted:Oh yeah that would also further reduce blood rites dramatic tension. Blood Rites is pretty explicit in stating that the spell had to be anchored to a specific person(s). Raith assumed that person to be Thomas, and Harry thought it might be himself, but so far as I recall we never got any solid confirmation on who is actually powering the spell. It wouldn't be maggie, since she wasn't even born yet. It could be Ebenezer, which would provide an easy out for letting Raith back in as a major baddie, since McCoy is bound to get killed off at some point.
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Jun 11, 2015 11:21
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Using spoilers because I know I'm not the only poster going through these for the first time. Finished Proven Guilty last night. It was good, but I'm a little torn on the ending. I was liking the smaller story aspect of most of the book, someone bringing movie horror monsters to life and feeding off the fear they elicited. But the reveal that it was who the hell knows? And how did Dresden's redirect spell get re-redirected at Molly? And they took her without killed her because...she had also use a spell fear, so they liked that? Also, the big climax coming around 75% in, followed by a ton of falling action kind of messed with the flow a bit. The last chapter was almost Return of the King like, with "And then I talked to Molly, and she left...and then Thomas came in, we talked, he left...and then Murphy came in, we talked, he left...and then McCoy came in, and we talked..." Like, I would have been fine with a big time stakes book, or a small time one. But I didn't really buy the jump from small time to big time here. And what the gently caress was with the frozen captured noble woman turning to Dresden and winking with Mab's eyes? I'm guessing I'm not supposed to know yet. But it made no sense here. Actually, I'm assuming I'm not supposed to know any of these things yet. So I've probably got some of those allears smileys coming soon.
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Jun 11, 2015 14:18
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Skippy McPants posted:Blood Rites is pretty explicit in stating that the spell had to be anchored to a specific person(s). Raith assumed that person to be Thomas, and Harry thought it might be himself, but so far as I recall we never got any solid confirmation on who is actually powering the spell. It wouldn't be maggie, since she wasn't even born yet. It could be Ebenezer, which would provide an easy out for letting Raith back in as a major baddie, since McCoy is bound to get killed off at some point. No it was tied to Margaret's bloodline, so it is at least both of them Raith even believed that was it and so does harry.
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Jun 11, 2015 14:27
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^ It's about a year between Death Masks and Blood Rites, (late series spoiler)Maggie is definitely around and it's compared to the loup garou curse so it's definitely bloodline.thrawn527 posted:Using spoilers because I know I'm not the only poster going through these for the first time. Basically (no spoilers for anything past PG from here on) because Molly used black magic to compel her friends with fear, that made her a target for the fetches and she was unintentionally the beacon for their appearances. So when Dresden redirected it back at the summoner, it worked as planned and they went straight to her, even though Harry wouldn't have done so if he'd known. They took her because 1. they're faeries and they like being huge dicks and more importantly 2. they can feed off mortal wizards even better than vanilla mortals. I never got that feeling from the ending but I can see it dragging on for someone, it's not the tightest finale he's written. As for that last part, it's to let you know that Mab is playing her own game here, and you don't know the rules, dun dun dunnnnn
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Jun 11, 2015 14:50
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Rumda posted:No it was tied to Margaret's bloodline, so it is at least both of them Raith even believed that was it and so does harry. Harry got the info right from his mother when he soulgazed Thomas, didn't he?
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Jun 11, 2015 14:56
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Not going to quote Illuyankas so I don't see the late series spoiler at the top, but that kind of makes sense. So someone summoned the fetches, but Molly became the beacon instead of the summoner? Is that right? I guess I'm not seeing why she was the beacon more than the summoner. Unless the summoner was actually pushing from the Nevernever? It's entirely possible I missed something obvious explaining that last part. I stayed up way too late reading the book last night.
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Jun 11, 2015 15:05
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thrawn527 posted:Not going to quote Illuyankas so I don't see the late series spoiler at the top, but that kind of makes sense. So someone summoned the fetches, but Molly became the beacon instead of the summoner? Is that right? I guess I'm not seeing why she was the beacon more than the summoner. Unless the summoner was actually pushing from the Nevernever? Not quite. When Dresden refers to the summoner he means Molly, as she is unintentionally drawing the fetches into the real world because of the fear she provoked in Nelson and Rosie and her own magical power. Dresden's mistake was thinking the fetches were showing up by someone deliberately allowing them to cross over, rather than using the fear generated to open the door from the Nevernever and bring more and more fetches over, which lasts up til they kidnap Molly. Of course, then Mab winks at Harry and you remember how it takes a serious power to open the way from the Nevernever side such as a queen of Faerie, and now you're sure you don't know what's going on.
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Jun 11, 2015 15:41
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Illuyankas posted:Not quite. When Dresden refers to the summoner he means Molly, as she is unintentionally drawing the fetches into the real world because of the fear she provoked in Nelson and Rosie and her own magical power. Dresden's mistake was thinking the fetches were showing up by someone deliberately allowing them to cross over, rather than using the fear generated to open the door from the Nevernever and bring more and more fetches over, which lasts up til they kidnap Molly. Ohhhhhhh. That makes more sense. But then there's still whoever made sure to take out Glau. But that's probably a Read and Find Out kind of thing. Thanks!
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Jun 11, 2015 15:45
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thrawn527 posted:Ohhhhhhh. Nobody made sure to take him out iirc, he was just a sniveling coward, so full of fear he probably looked super tasty.
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Jun 11, 2015 16:23
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So after a long time of thinking, I've decided to get back into The Dresden Files for two main reasons: 1) There are genuine strengths and weaknesses within this series and since this is the 800-pound-gorilla of the genre, if I'm to understand this genre that I love (and one day hope hope to contribute in, let's be real), I'll have to put my money where my mouth is and understand this series. and 2) I bought a bunch of them used a while back so I might as well keep reading  I'm about halfway through "Proven Guilty", incidentially. And a few things about this book are making me cringe but not so much because of the content but the context. This book was published back in '06 but there were three things that haven't aged well, or, at the very least, are very much are of their time. First, the book is set in a horror convention. If the book was published a few years later, it would be set in a proper comic book convention, given how comic book adaptations have become the Hollywood zeitgeist ever since 2008. Second, the plot involves supernatural entities which manifest as slasher-film characters to slaughter con antendies and feed of their fear. Reading it now in 2015, I'm wincing because ever since Aurora, Colorado, it's not slashers in movie theaters we're worried about. Third, the scene where Greene is interrogating Molly. I outright cringed because not only in today's post-Ferguson-Baltimore-etc. world where we're becoming more and more aware of police brutality incidents on an almost daily basis, not to mention how "black sites" dating back since the 70's were used to interrogate and abuse persons without due process by Chicago PD exist to this day, I expected Dresden to walk in on Greene whaling away on Molly. Reading through certain parts of this book was kinda like watching a Frank Capra film in the sense that it felt like it was written in a simpler time. But when I looked at the inside cover and saw that the book was published less than ten years ago, the irony hit me like a punch to the gut in how fast things have changed and mostly in the worst possible ways 
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Jun 11, 2015 23:35
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Benny the Snake posted:First, the book is set in a horror convention. If the book was published a few years later, it would be set in a proper comic book convention, given how comic book adaptations have become the Hollywood zeitgeist ever since 2008. These are some... weird opinions to have. I don't want to just say you're being a tad hyper sensitive and reading too much into things, but... Horror movie conventions are a thing, and if anything they're more common than they used to be, due to fan conventions becoming more mainstream in general, largely due to the aforementioned wider acceptance of comic book heroes thanks to Hollywood. It also gives Butcher an excuse to rope in a bunch of horror movie rejects as his baddies, and that kinda of pulpy bullshit is right up his ally. Also, also it makes a weird kind of sense for Molly to be into horror movies. One of her notable character traits is that she's... actually pretty loving terrifying under the perky, teenage rebel exterior. poo poo, she's practically Anthony Fremont, only with slightly better intentions. As for the resonance between the theater attack in the book and the Aurora shooting... Well, sad truth is that there are precocious few modern venues where you can set a fictional attack without it reflecting, at least in part, a real life massacre. Be it Schools, office buildings, movie theaters, stadiums, or summer camps pretty much anywhere you can imagine has been through it at this point. And I just don't get the last one. It would be way out of focus for how Butcher portrays the police—generally well meaning, if misguided—for one of their detectives to just be randomly beating a teenager during a routine, if relatively high pressure, questioning. I dunno, guess I'm just not seeing how those specific examples data the book in any particular fashion. They're all things I could easily imagine reading in a book published last month.
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Jun 12, 2015 00:12
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Benny the Snake posted:Second, the plot involves supernatural entities which manifest as slasher-film characters to slaughter con antendies and feed of their fear. Reading it now in 2015, I'm wincing because ever since Aurora, Colorado, it's not slashers in movie theaters we're worried about. Normal people aren't worried about movie theater shooters, either.
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Jun 12, 2015 00:18
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Hell, you have better odds of being hit by a drunk driver every time you step out your front door. Even if you don't live anywhere near a street! Try to only be afraid of things that are statistically sensible!
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Jun 12, 2015 00:36
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Rumda posted:Oh yeah that would also further reduce blood rites dramatic tension. On the other hand, Papa Raith succeeding in his cunning plan to kill Harry and Thomas then finding out he STILL couldn't feed is amusing to ponder. Plus, if he is a Chekov's Gun like people theorize, having Maggie's existence affecting him with the curse even if Harry and Thomas were out of the picture in some fashion (maybe whatever freed him from Lara would also block the curse from the two he knew about) would be an excellent built in "Chekov's Safety". Harry suddenly finding out his daughter is in specific danger from the White King is the sort of thing provokes his more interesting mass destruction sprees.
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Jun 12, 2015 00:38
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Well let me clarify--the point I was trying to make was that there were certain parts of "Proven Guilty" that felt dissonant if only because to me, much worse has actually happened than what Butcher was trying to portray. The central conflict invovles horror film slashers butchering victims in theaters. That first scene where The Reaper is butchering all those victims in the theater was scary, sure, but it just reminded me how the man who perpetrated the Aurora, CO shooting is standing trial as we speak. Same thing with Molly's interrogation--it's tense, sure, but again, it reminded me of how recently it was revealed that Chicago PD housed interogation sites to interrogate and brutalize individuals without due process. So to me, the over all effect was lik looking into a time capsle--it just speaks to the inherit problem of how some aspects of fiction don't age well. I haven't finished this book just yet, though but it'll be interesting And yeah, I'm a bigger fan of comic book movies than horror films so I'll cop to that was my own bias.
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Jun 12, 2015 00:49
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It's just a weird point. "Oh, well, what Butcher is writing is not literally the worst possible permutation of that situation." The problem is that wasn't what he set out to write in the first place; it's possible for something to happen in fiction without necessitating a comparison to the absolute worst things that have ever happened in the real world.
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Jun 12, 2015 00:57
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Skippy McPants posted:Try to only be afraid of things that are statistically sensible! And clowns.
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Jun 12, 2015 01:29
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anilEhilated posted:I honestly just wish he'd axe the White Court completely. They're not interesting in any way and just ooze awkwardness. I for one welcome our new sexy vampire overlords! But only because I subconsciously identify with anyone who has to fend off unwanted sexual advances from random women, being a tentacle monster I can dig why half this thread roots for the awkward, sexually frustrated loner character though 
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Jun 12, 2015 04:27
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Khizan posted:And clowns. He said statistically sensible, didn't he?
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Jun 12, 2015 05:51
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Benny the Snake posted:Well let me clarify--the point I was trying to make was that there were certain parts of "Proven Guilty" that felt dissonant if only because to me, much worse has actually happened than what Butcher was trying to portray. The central conflict invovles horror film slashers butchering victims in theaters. That first scene where The Reaper is butchering all those victims in the theater was scary, sure, but it just reminded me how the man who perpetrated the Aurora, CO shooting is standing trial as we speak. Same thing with Molly's interrogation--it's tense, sure, but again, it reminded me of how recently it was revealed that Chicago PD housed interogation sites to interrogate and brutalize individuals without due process. So to me, the over all effect was lik looking into a time capsle--it just speaks to the inherit problem of how some aspects of fiction don't age well. I haven't finished this book just yet, though but it'll be interesting 
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Jun 12, 2015 18:03
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MasterFugu posted:so you're basically complaining that Butcher doesn't own a time machine? I prefer to interpret it as he's complaining about having been, himself, too lazy to read it in a timely fashion.
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Jun 12, 2015 18:07
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MasterFugu posted:so you're basically complaining that Butcher doesn't own a time machine? He's complaining about how the good old days aren't around anymore
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Jun 12, 2015 18:09
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Tunicate posted:He's complaining about how the good old days aren't around anymore 
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Jun 12, 2015 18:30
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This is the perfect example of Death of the Author incidentally, where unrelated events give the reader a new interpretation of the story.
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Jun 12, 2015 23:36
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computer parts posted:This is the perfect example of Death of the Author incidentally, where unrelated events give the reader a new interpretation of the story. I got kicked in the head a few months ago and thanks to that I finally understood the psychosexual Japano-Prussian-political Hindu allegory the Berenstein Bears was truly about. Benny and I should form a book club. Drifter fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Jun 13, 2015 |
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Jun 13, 2015 05:58
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Drifter posted:I got kicked in the head a few months ago and thanks to that I finally understood the psychosexual Japano-Prussian-political Hindu allegory the Berenstein Bears was truly about. It's not a controversial topic. Do you think this:  took on a different meaning than what the creators intended? If so, that's death of the author.
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Jun 13, 2015 07:14
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thrawn527 posted:Using spoilers because I know I'm not the only poster going through these for the first time. It makes more sense when you remember that was the last book he was under contract for and was renegotiating afterwards. So the plot goosing the larger story by linking the individual books and highlighting the clues he has dropped in them, while itself setting a quasi cliffhanger makes sense when you consider he wanted his fan base screaming "what the hell, EXPLAIN!" for a bit of leverage
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Jun 17, 2015 21:11
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So, at this point, based on recommendations in this thread, I've read a few different non-Dresden books. It seems pretty obvious to me that Butcher and Aaronovitch are head and shoulders above everyone else in this genre. (That doesn't mean I didn't enjoy the other books, especially London Falling) The thing that Butcher and Aaronovitch seem to excel at more so than the other authors I've read, is that they've both put in a huge additional effort at world building, especially in regards to fleshing out the rules of their magic systems. I specifically enjoy scenes with Peter Grant where he is floundering about trying to figure out the rules of his new world. Most other urban fantasy writers seem to just rely on the "it's just like our world, but magic happens" and don't really expand on it too much.
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Jun 17, 2015 21:50
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The Fool posted:So, at this point, based on recommendations in this thread, I've read a few different non-Dresden books. It seems pretty obvious to me that Butcher and Aaronovitch are head and shoulders above everyone else in this genre. (That doesn't mean I didn't enjoy the other books, especially London Falling) That's one facet, but in broader terms it boils down to the fact that Butcher and Aaronovitch have, well, craft. I don't even even think that either one, and Butcher specifically, is exceptionally talented. They just worked their rear end off to hone their skill and the effort they've put in comes across in every aspect of their writing. Story, characters, setting, or whatever else, it's all stuff they're good at because it's clear they've spent an insane amount of time hammering out the fundamentals, so that stuff like that goes down onto the page nice and smooth. And it's not something you see in a lot of genre or YA fiction, so it does stand out when you run across it. I still remember the first time I picked up a Terry Prachett book and was like, "What the gently caress, how can it be this good?" Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 06:50 on Jun 18, 2015 |
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Jun 18, 2015 06:48
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I'm trying something different for White Night, because I haven't had that much time to just sit down and read lately. I do, however, have a 1hr commute both to and from work. So I picked up the audio book version. I know this isn't a new opinion or anything, but James Marsters makes a pretty drat sweet Dresden, guys.
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Jun 19, 2015 15:55
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James Marsters is a good fit, but nowhere near as good as Kobna Holdbrook-Smith for Rivers of London.
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Jun 19, 2015 15:59
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The Fool posted:So, at this point, based on recommendations in this thread, I've read a few different non-Dresden books. It seems pretty obvious to me that Butcher and Aaronovitch are head and shoulders above everyone else in this genre. (That doesn't mean I didn't enjoy the other books, especially London Falling) Try the Matthew swift novels if you like good world building and a different take on urban magic.
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Jun 20, 2015 03:05
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torgeaux posted:Try the Matthew swift novels if you like good world building and a different take on urban magic. It's a crime that one of the better universes died well before its time  twenty palaces Also I just re read the series due to intense masochism.
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Jun 20, 2015 05:55
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Wade Wilson posted:James Marsters is a good fit, but nowhere near as good as Kobna Holdbrook-Smith for Rivers of London. Kobna's hilariously bad American accent amuses me greatly
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Jun 20, 2015 06:49
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Benny the Snake posted:Well let me clarify--the point I was trying to make was that there were certain parts of "Proven Guilty" that felt dissonant if only because to me, much worse has actually happened than what Butcher was trying to portray. The central conflict invovles horror film slashers butchering victims in theaters. That first scene where The Reaper is butchering all those victims in the theater was scary, sure, but it just reminded me how the man who perpetrated the Aurora, CO shooting is standing trial as we speak. Same thing with Molly's interrogation--it's tense, sure, but again, it reminded me of how recently it was revealed that Chicago PD housed interogation sites to interrogate and brutalize individuals without due process. So to me, the over all effect was lik looking into a time capsle--it just speaks to the inherit problem of how some aspects of fiction don't age well. I haven't finished this book just yet, though but it'll be interesting Yeah, except all of those sorts of things (high profile mass murders in entertainment venues, police brutality, and racial animus) have been around way longer than Jim Butcher has been writing (especially in the USA)
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Jun 23, 2015 06:52
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I just finished Skin Game this morning. I'm starting a chronological run through right now. I'm on audio books and holy crap, Marsders' voice is now inseparable from Dresden. I'm going back to the beginning of the thread now while I listen. I'll be back with questions and crack-pot theories!
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Jun 25, 2015 23:52
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Tumbleweed Chingada posted:I just finished Skin Game this morning. I'm starting a chronological run through right now. I'm on audio books and holy crap, Marsders' voice is now inseparable from Dresden. Speaking of crackpot theories I was talking to a friend of mine who thinks Cowl is Kemmler, but in Justin Demornes body. He says corpsetaker had to learn how to body switch from somewhere, and it would explain Justin's shift after killing Kemmler and taking Bob. Probably plenty of holes in the theory but I liked it
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Jun 26, 2015 00:55
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Thorpe posted:Speaking of crackpot theories I was talking to a friend of mine who thinks Cowl is Kemmler, but in Justin Demornes body. He says corpsetaker had to learn how to body switch from somewhere, and it would explain Justin's shift after killing Kemmler and taking Bob. Probably plenty of holes in the theory but I liked it Word of Jim is that Justin is D-E-A-D and gone forever. And, the Darkhallow is easy as hell once you know how it works, if Cowl was Kemmler, he'd have no reason to get involved in Dead Beat.
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Jun 26, 2015 02:01
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Error 404 posted:Word of Jim is that Justin is D-E-A-D and gone forever. That would fit though, technically. Do we have word of Jim on how dead Kemmler is?
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Jun 26, 2015 02:04
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:That would fit though, technically. Do we have word of Jim on how dead Kemmler is? Well, I just remember from a question at a book signing, that Justin will never come back. He's completely gone.
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Jun 26, 2015 02:43
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