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enraged_camel posted:The Kochs are causing and perpetuating many of the systemic issues you speak of. Last time I checked neither Warren Buffett nor Bill Gates were not funding conservative think thanks that spew poo poo like anti-global warming propaganda. Exactly this. Rscott, we've never seen an entity like the Koch Brothers in modern American politics. These guys are outspending the loving GOP itself to affect change for the worse. You can't just brush that off as Playa Hatin'. My big fear is that this is all an elaborate attempt at Disaster Capitalism. When Kansas is thoroughly hosed enough, Brownback will sell off the state's assets at rock bottom prices. David & Charles will have themselves a nice little fiefdom, complete with toll roads and hungry, superstitious peasants.
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Jun 19, 2015 08:42
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Dr. Faustus posted:Ok: "Don't hate the player, hate the game," is a tremendously idiotic thing to say. If you decide to play "the game" to win (e.g. looking out for you and yours and everyone else can starve and die) then you are a sociopath and you need to learn that other people deserve things, too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw That's a lot of vitriol directed at people who are content to leave others to their own devices. Sorry not everybody thinks it's best to meddle in affairs not even tangentially related to them. That's a beneficial two way street. They turned down federal money they could've used to really help their own people and did it out of spite. What do you do now? Either some hilariously fascist over reaction to assuage our own guilt or care troll on the internet I guess. You're right, it's not a game, so stop trying to play it. SlipUp fucked around with this message at 09:29 on Jun 19, 2015 |
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Jun 19, 2015 09:26
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rscott posted:What the gently caress are you talking about, I'm not defending the Koch brothers, I'm saying that concentrating on them solely means liberals can avoid critiques of the capitalist mode of production you moron What makes you think they'd even be open to critiques of capitalism in the first place? I don't care if you have 80 billion dollars, you can do whatever you want with it just don't loving use it to try to buy elections. It's perfectly possible to have strict campaign finance regulations and to enforce them well, we just don't.
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Jun 19, 2015 10:39
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enraged_camel posted:Last time I checked neither Warren Buffett nor Bill Gates were not funding conservative think thanks that spew poo poo like anti-global warming propaganda. http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/mar/19/gates-foundation-has-14bn-in-fossil-fuels-investments-guardian-analysis A few steps removed, but might as well be.
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Jun 19, 2015 11:42
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down with slavery posted:http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/mar/19/gates-foundation-has-14bn-in-fossil-fuels-investments-guardian-analysis The Gates Foundation also is involved in the whole charter schools thing (with Zuckerberg, et al) and other skeezy areas. Just because Gates doesn't dick wave his scumminess doesn't mean he's not scummy.
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Jun 19, 2015 11:59
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Willie Tomg posted:Yes. So we all become economic migrants, fruit pickers with better benefits? I mean that is the ultimate end game here but it also contributes to the breakdown of local communities and social structures that are going to be key if we are ever going to fight this poo poo and win. e: thanks for proving my points exactly in this thread guys, not all capitalists are bad! !! lmao #notallcapitalists rscott fucked around with this message at 12:35 on Jun 19, 2015 |
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Jun 19, 2015 12:28
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have fun waiting for the glorious socialist revolution in Kansas lmao
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Jun 19, 2015 13:45
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Must have missed the part when I said I'm peacing out as soon as I can, most people aren't so lucky
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Jun 19, 2015 14:11
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ThirdPartyView posted:The Gates Foundation also is involved in the whole charter schools thing (with Zuckerberg, et al) and other skeezy areas. Just because Gates doesn't dick wave his scumminess doesn't mean he's not scummy. Gates is also massively funding global health issues. But because he is now one of the biggest funders, he gets to call the shots. Which means heaping on tons of costly metrics to every action and focusing the entire global apparatus on just a couple diseases, because working on something else means you will never find grant money. It's a curse in disguise.
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Jun 19, 2015 14:37
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ThirdPartyView posted:The Gates Foundation also is involved in the whole charter schools thing (with Zuckerberg, et al) and other skeezy areas. Just because Gates doesn't dick wave his scumminess doesn't mean he's not scummy. Their ideas may be skeezy but I would argue that their intentions are categorically different than that of Koch Brothers. And unlike the Koch Brothers, The Gates Foundation does a lot of good all over the world. And Warren Buffett has publicly called for increasing taxes on the rich, for example.
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Jun 19, 2015 14:53
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Brave New World posted:Exactly this. Rscott, we've never seen an entity like the Koch Brothers in modern American politics. Yeah we have. All the other rich assholes who don't get paid attention to because they spend like 10% less or whatever the gently caress. There are entire states at the beck and call of slightly less wealthy dudes.
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Jun 19, 2015 15:49
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rscott posted:This isn't a problem that is going to be solved by creating boogeymen that we burn in effigy. No, but how do we attack the system if we don't attack those who are simultaneously it's largest beneficiaries and propagators? I totally agree that it's systemic rather than individual, but the realization that "These guys are shits but if we get rid of them they'll just be replaced" hinges on first realizing that the guys in question are shits. Alternatively, burn enough of them in non-effigy and we'd see some changes too 
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Jun 19, 2015 16:07
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One plus to Kansas being in the shape it's in is that Missouri has somewhat stopped trying to out-crazy them to keep up. We were doing our best to keep up for a while.
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Jun 19, 2015 16:10
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enraged_camel posted:Their ideas may be skeezy but I would argue that their intentions are categorically different than that of Koch Brothers. And unlike the Koch Brothers, The Gates Foundation does a lot of good all over the world. And Warren Buffett has publicly called for increasing taxes on the rich, for example. The Koch brothers do a lot of good all over the world as well. Check out who sponsors PBS's Nova, Frontline and Nature programs Pro tip: There's not a billionaire out there that isn't a lovely rear end in a top hat because he wouldn't be a billionaire if he wasn't. If you think there are "good" billionaires and "bad" billionaires good news, congratulations on playing to their tune.
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Jun 19, 2015 16:37
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I mean, shouldn't all of you know about Andrew Carnegie? Isn't the Gilded Age taught in American history at all? It was for us in Grade 10. Poor guy becomes incredibly rich, does horrible things to get there, has way too much influence in politics and builds a bunch of cool buildings for poor Americans. Do the ends justify the means, well you can decide that for yourself. The problem is, as always, there's no accountability with these charities. Money goes with the whims of its master, who sell donors on a particular Idea of how they thing the world should work.
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Jun 19, 2015 17:04
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Dreylad posted:I mean, shouldn't all of you know about Andrew Carnegie? Isn't the Gilded Age taught in American history at all? It was for us in Grade 10. Not really, at least in Georgia and North Carolina. It usually went: 1. Native Americans, skipping over the genocidal parts 2. Columbus 3. Glorious Patriotic Revolution Against the Evil British King And His Armies of Evil Evilness- At least a month here 4. A few weeks about how the South tried to reconcile with the North, but those blasted Northerners were always trying to hurt the South 5. Civil War- A week or so. Focus mainly how it was about States Rights and totally not Slavery you guys. 6. Reconstruction- The North were evil to us! Carpetbaggers! Burned Cities! Grant was a Monster as President! Non-representation They made us let Blacks vote for a decade! 7. Something Something The Jungle Something Something 8. WWI And then out of time.
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Jun 19, 2015 17:25
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People seem to be misunderstanding my intent. I never meant to side with the "let them eat cake" crowd, or the, "they broke it, they bought it" people. My only objection is to the continued use of "don't hate the playa, hate the game." Tell me this isn't said 100% by people who use it to justify their own disgusting, self-centered behavior at the expense of people who have morals and won't stoop to their level. That's literally all I was saying. It's a weak justification for being a horrible person by saying, "Hey, this is just how poo poo works. I gently caress you over before you can gently caress me over, because altruism is for chumps."  I have no vitriol for the people who are suffering, not even the voters. Only the legislators who enact such heinous policies. Does that help? Or, in other words, abide by the Golden Rule, not the rules of "The Game." Dr. Faustus fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Jun 19, 2015 |
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Jun 19, 2015 17:42
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Dr. Faustus posted:I have no vitriol for the people who are suffering, not even the voters. what a holier than thou attitude to take bravo you chose to suffer and to make those around you suffer but I hold no ill will because those bad men at the top are so drat sneaky like... we live in a Democracy, how are the people not responsible for who/what they vote for. especially when those decisions directly impact their neighbors, etc down with slavery fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Jun 19, 2015 |
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Jun 19, 2015 20:39
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Right before the last election I asked my mom "how many times are you going to vote for brownback" because I was assuming she had read about some of the stupid poo poo he had done in his term. My uncle and aunt and my mom all told me they supported Brownback all the way. I'm not sure why people in Kansas fall prey to the same political advertisements every year.
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Jun 19, 2015 21:11
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down with slavery posted:what a holier than thou attitude to take Wow, damned if you do or don't it is, I guess. I'm not holy, in any way. I was just making a comment about a phrase I don't like and some people I think took it the wrong way. You can provide the vitriol for both of us, as you seem to be quite comfortable with it.
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Jun 19, 2015 21:17
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Slaan posted:Not really, at least in Georgia and North Carolina. It usually went: poo poo, the schools I went to weren't even THAT elaborate. It mainly went half a chapter on Native Americans, American Revolution, Civil War (varied from teacher to teacher, tone always of the "both sides felt bad and were good" sort) some Industrial Revolution, american-only involvement in WW2, more WW2, some more WW2 for good measure (btw the holocaust was bad), then the cold war and very light touching-upon modern events. Sometimes a teacher would work on some additional subject that were their faves (best history teacher skimmed through those just enough for tests, then did other subjects and talked about his personal experience with muslim/buddhist/immigrant colleagues). There was one teacher who had a pop quiz where the one question was essentially "who was the bad man terrorist who started the bad desert war" and that was essentially it for modern history.
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Jun 19, 2015 21:28
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Slaan posted:Not really, at least in Georgia and North Carolina. It usually went: Quick question, because I grew up in Montana for the first 14 years of my life and we talked about Native Americans ALOT and this sort of thing always confused me - how do you talk about the Native Americans but not the genocide? It is just "Native Americans were here! And now they aren't anymore."? One of my friends had this issue in her Washington (admittedly religious) schooling too. How did your teachers get around it? Did they lie about the whole land theft? Did they just not mention the Plains War?
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Jun 19, 2015 22:21
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IIRC in my history class it was mostly stuff about how we Americans tried to give them civilization but they didn't want it and it's real sad that so many of them died but everything is hunk dory after AIM and poo poo, honest we swear
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Jun 19, 2015 22:32
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rscott posted:IIRC in my history class it was mostly stuff about how we Americans tried to give them civilization but they didn't want it and it's real sad that so many of them died but everything is hunk dory after AIM and poo poo, honest we swear    I thought Florida's line of bullshit was bad.
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Jun 19, 2015 22:35
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SwingShift posted:Quick question, because I grew up in Montana for the first 14 years of my life and we talked about Native Americans ALOT and this sort of thing always confused me - how do you talk about the Native Americans but not the genocide? It is just "Native Americans were here! And now they aren't anymore."? One of my friends had this issue in her Washington (admittedly religious) schooling too. How did your teachers get around it? Did they lie about the whole land theft? Did they just not mention the Plains War? Generally the story of the Native Americans is taught as the Spanish just totally destroying them with plague and violence. Meanwhile the Northern Europeans who would found the US tried to work in harmony, like Thanksgiving. Then you've got a few bad apples riling up the savages, which just forces all the good people to go to war. Also they just keep siding with our enemies in stuff like the French & Indian Wars, The Revolution, and 1812. Weird. Maybe you'll hear about the Trail of Tears, which manages to somehow be presented as a sad thing that might have been bad but there were reasons. Afterwards all those Plains tribes just kept having friction with the settlers for some reason. Who can say why? Then we made some reservation deals, which we admittedly were pretty lovely on but that was a long time ago. Then we fulfilled the Monroe Doctrine and nothing of note every happened with the Native Americans again. Oh, don't forget to toss in Custer with no real context except that dude got his whole company killed. Wonder why they even were there. At least it's better than how our fantastic foray into cool Imperialism like our European friends is taught. That's just the dirty Spanish attacked the Main, something something CUBA LIBRE! drat that Castro. I mean we were lovely to the Native Americans, but we took that level of shittiness and exported it with a tropical flair made worse by the fact we weren't even really displacing people for settlers. More for profit and spite.
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Jun 19, 2015 23:57
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MaxxBot posted:What makes you think they'd even be open to critiques of capitalism in the first place? I don't care if you have 80 billion dollars, you can do whatever you want with it just don't loving use it to try to buy elections. It's perfectly possible to have strict campaign finance regulations and to enforce them well, we just don't. Counterpoint A: Europe, which is going down the tubes despite hating free speech
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Jun 20, 2015 00:04
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How many campaign finance regulations would stop the UK from banning chocolate or whatever the gently caress is going on there?
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Jun 20, 2015 00:05
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SwingShift posted:Quick question, because I grew up in Montana for the first 14 years of my life and we talked about Native Americans ALOT and this sort of thing always confused me - how do you talk about the Native Americans but not the genocide? Whig narrative of history. You teach that American history follows an arc of continual progress toward an enlightened society. Topics that don't follow this arc are treated as marginal, mistaken, or temporary: detours along the road. For example you will very likely do a unit about the Trail of Tears. This will be treated in isolation, a discrete event which we now know was a mistake, and which was rectified at some later point. Meanwhile, academic scholars of early America and Native American history can tell you that the engine of the early US economy was speculation in Indian-held land. Indian Removal is not marginal to the story of America, it's one of the most important moving parts. I could go on but I'm a little pressed for time just now.
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Jun 20, 2015 00:38
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Series DD Funding posted:How many campaign finance regulations would stop the UK from banning chocolate or whatever the gently caress is going on there? Not a thing that is happening but OK.
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Jun 20, 2015 01:00
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Series DD Funding posted:How many campaign finance regulations would stop the UK from banning chocolate or whatever the gently caress is going on there? Didn't the UK just have a big thing with preventing Kraft from buying Cadbury's and profaning their proud English chocolate tradition. Did you mean to post this in the freep thread? And  bribing politicians is not free speech.
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Jun 20, 2015 02:49
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All that campaign finance control sure has made Europe not beholden to neoliberalism and corporations. Oh wait.
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Jun 20, 2015 02:52
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I'd say it's mitigated the effects of capital's ability to disassemble the social safety net in those countries
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Jun 20, 2015 03:01
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rscott posted:I'd say it's mitigated the effects of capital's ability to disassemble the social safety net in those countries Sure hasn't helped, say, Greece. Or many of the other poorer countries. That's the "beauty" of the current EU setup, a neoliberal paradise, where you can demand the poorer areas start cutting things like minimum wages while the richer areas barely need to do anything. If we had that in the US Kansas would already be down to a $0.50 an hour minimum wage. And when was the last time poor people in the US got their benefits cut for daring to not move to a smaller house as soon as a kid moved out, or as soon as the parents lost their jobs? Happens pretty constantly now in the UK.
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Jun 20, 2015 03:18
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I don't deny any of those points but it's a dumb argument because you can't prove a negative. Do I think campaign finance laws are a pancea for what ills the American poltical process? Of course not, there is no magic bullet.
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Jun 20, 2015 03:27
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My point is just that anyone who thinks campaign finance regulations meaningfully prevent capital from exercising vast control over governments is at best naive. poo poo, Canada has great campaign finance regulations and they've still got crackpot conservatives trying to restrict research into the tar sands pollution for business interests.
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Jun 20, 2015 03:36
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Europe isn't a paradise despite campaign finance restrictions, so obviously we should legalize open bribery, that's the ticket.
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Jun 20, 2015 04:07
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VitalSigns posted:Europe isn't a paradise despite campaign finance restrictions, so obviously we should legalize open bribery, that's the ticket. Notice how the dreaded CITIZNES UNITED did approximately jack and poo poo to change anything about American elections? Well, other than getting a few savvy media companies and perpetual political hucksters richer of course.
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Jun 20, 2015 04:09
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Nintendo Kid posted:Notice how the dreaded CITIZNES UNITED did approximately jack and poo poo to change anything about American elections? Well, other than getting a few savvy media companies and perpetual political hucksters richer of course. Lol, so wrong. It made them more entertaining my friend. 
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Jun 20, 2015 04:33
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Nintendo Kid posted:Notice how the dreaded CITIZNES UNITED did approximately jack and poo poo to change anything about American elections? Well, other than getting a few savvy media companies and perpetual political hucksters richer of course. Idk, now every last hundred-millionaire can fund his own crazy-rear end Tea Party or Sedevacantist candidate to tear each other apart on national TV instead of one or two establishment nepotists sucking all the air out of the room and locking up the nomination before Super Tuesday, that's pretty different.
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Jun 20, 2015 18:22
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Troy Queef posted:Kinda off topic, but it's a funny story: my family's all from KC (MO) and as such we visited there a lot. My favorite memory isn't Winstead's onion rings, barbecue, or anything like that: it was seeing a Hy-Vee on State Line Road that had the grocery part on the KS side (for "most of our shoppers come from JoCo" reasons) and the liquor part on the MO side (for "Missouri has absurdly liberal liquor laws, unlike Kansas" reasons).
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Jun 21, 2015 08:50
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