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P-Mack, what're the sources you're consulting for the Taiping Rebellion write-ups? I've only personally read God's Chinese Son by Johnathan D. Spence which is pretty good, if a little chatty at times.
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Jun 20, 2015 19:06
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HEY GAL posted:Which reminds me: according to Clausewitz, people just stopped doing this during the 18th/19th century. He says it's no other reason than "fashion"--was there a doctrinal reason people didn't fortify their siege lines any more in the 1790s?
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Jun 20, 2015 19:21
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Merdifex posted:P-Mack, what're the sources you're consulting for the Taiping Rebellion write-ups? I've only personally read God's Chinese Son by Johnathan D. Spence which is pretty good, if a little chatty at times. I'm basing these posts mostly off of Spence, Jen Yu-Wen's Taiping Revolutionary Movement, and Teng Ssu-yu's Taiping Rebellion and the Western Powers. Once I hit 1858 or so I'll use Platt's Autumn in the Heavenly Kingdom as well. Jen is pretty much the best (he was Spence's teacher; Spence actually wrote the foreword), provided you recognize that there are some accounts which weren't available when he was writing, and also that he is openly sympathetic to the Taiping in contrast to Spence's more balanced approach. Teng, despite the title, is only 25% or so about the West and the rest is a very clear and concise account of the rebellion with as few needless digressions as possible. Platt is a very easy to read narrative of the second half of the war, if you found Spence a bit windy you'll probably prefer Platt's writing. Right now, I'm midway through C.A. Curwen's meticulously footnoted translation of the deposition of Li Xiucheng, which is basically our only firsthand account from the Taiping side. It's pretty tight. There are a couple of decent books released recently. Thomas Reilly's Taiping Heavenly Kingdom: Rebellion and the Blasphemy of Empire, which looks at the religious motivations of the Taiping rebels. He probably overstates his case, but it's a good corrective to the materialist approach that tries to write the religion off as irrelevant trappings to a basic peasant rebellion.Tobie Meyer-Fong's What Remains: Coming to Terms with Civil War in 19th Century China looks at the horrific impact of the war on ordinary people, based on post war accounts. A lot of interesting stuff, but I didn't really care for the modern academic, phrase-everything-as-a-question style. My Chinese is basically nonexistent, so that probably cuts me off from a good 99% of what's been written on the topic. My short term goal is to read every book available in English, which seems to be no more than 20 titles. From there I'll work my way through the journals while learning Chinese, I guess. Question for all the actual historians here- I've been browsing JSTOR for journal articles, is there some other database I ought to be checking? Is there some kind of Milhist Platinum Reserve full of detailed debates on exactly how long the spear guy's spears were, etc?
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Jun 20, 2015 21:15
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Rent-A-Cop posted:How long did a siege generally last in your time period?
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Jun 20, 2015 21:16
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cheerfullydrab posted:Is it just me, or is there a distinct lack of depictions of lance-wielding cavalry in popular culture? Why would that be?
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Jun 21, 2015 00:01
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Tevery Best posted:Because you don't watch Eastern European films. I'm going to watch the crap out of these when I have a better internet connection.
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Jun 21, 2015 01:14
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T___A posted:I suspect the utter lack of lances in the American Civil War has a lot to do with it. Lances were used in so very many many other conflicts though, it's amazing the lack.
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Jun 21, 2015 01:15
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Who was the most important person ever killed by a cannon accidentally exploding when fired?
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Jun 21, 2015 05:53
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Chamale posted:Who was the most important person ever killed by a cannon accidentally exploding when fired? We almost lost a president to one but it killed the Secretary of State and secretary of the navy instead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Princeton_disaster_of_1844
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Jun 21, 2015 06:08
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100 Years Ago The Senegalese show the MEF how it's done on Gallipoli; aided and abetted by staggering quantities of artillery fire, they've managed to, er, capture and hold one enemy redoubt. Don't worry, there's another one behind it. (And achieve a favourable casualty ratio, possibly for the first time, no unimportant feat as the war in general looks set fair to drag on for years more). Meanwhile, another important development that also might affect the Western Front but probably will be ignored: some British gunners have noticed that their artillery is firing so many shells that the gun barrels are beginning to wear out. Elsewhere, General Cadorna issues orders for an attack on the Carso and Gorizia, in Africa the British Empire is ready to raid Bukoba, and probably most importantly of all, Colonel Swinton has both managed to convince the War Office that landships are a thing worth pursuing and that they should get in touch with the Navy, who have been doing some interesting things with them.
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Jun 21, 2015 08:23
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cheerfullydrab posted:I'm going to watch the crap out of these when I have a better internet connection. Aside from Potop and maybe Krzyzacy you can feel free to skip anything that's not a fight/battle scene.
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Jun 21, 2015 08:26
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Raskolnikov38 posted:We almost lost a president to one but it killed the Secretary of State and secretary of the navy instead. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_II_of_Scotland#Death
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Jun 21, 2015 10:18
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T___A posted:I suspect the utter lack of lances in the American Civil War has a lot to do with it. http://civilwarhorror.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/lancers-in-american-civil-war.html 
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Jun 21, 2015 11:47
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Article linked to a mention of "pikes used by soldiers in Georgia."quote:The pikes governor Joe Brown planned to arm his men with were about 6 or 7 feet long...  The boar-spear-looking blade on the thing is kinda cool though. http://www.oddlyhistorical.com/2014/02/07/confederate-pikemen-civil-war-joe-browns-pikes/
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Jun 21, 2015 11:53
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HEY GAL posted:Article linked to a mention of "pikes used by soldiers in Georgia." A 6 foot pike is a spear with pretensions
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Jun 21, 2015 17:25
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Jazerus posted:A 6 foot pike is a spear with pretensions
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Jun 21, 2015 18:04
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"Pikes" seem to be one of those weapons that keep cropping up in desperation situations. Weren't the Japanese drilling civilians and issuing them pikes of some sort just prior to the atomic bombings?
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Jun 21, 2015 18:08
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Brits got them before Sea Lion too I think. Them and Knobkierries too I think.
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Jun 21, 2015 18:14
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HEY GAL posted:The boar-spear-looking blade on the thing is kinda cool though. On a side note, I just took a closer look through the link. It looks like the author of the article is trying to argue that the issuing of the pikes was actually a cunning and prescient recognition of the fact that the South would have had its best chances of victory by fighting a guerrilla war against the invader and trying to wear the Union forces down morale-wise until they got all Vietnam on the South, in the grand tradition of vastly inferior military forces such as the Mongols and the United States wearing out far superior enemies over time using innovative tactics. Therefore the pike would have been the perfect weapon for Southern guerrillas to use, as it required little training, could be produced quickly, and could be used stealthily. This despite the fact that Governor Brown was also, as the article explains, explicitly demanding that troops take those pikes into the open field and augment bayonet charges with their superior melee capabilities. Ladies and gentlemen of the MilHist thread, your thoughts?
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Jun 21, 2015 18:26
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Pikes don't seem like they're an easy weapon to bring a hastily raised militia up to competent levels, even with well practiced instructors.
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Jun 21, 2015 18:27
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Klaus88 posted:Pikes don't seem like they're an easy weapon to bring a hastily raised militia up to competent levels, even with well practiced instructors. A sturdy wooden club would be even quicker!
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Jun 21, 2015 18:32
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Klaus88 posted:Pikes don't seem like they're an easy weapon to bring a hastily raised militia up to competent levels, even with well practiced instructors.
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Jun 21, 2015 18:32
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I'm just taking a moment to try to imagine a handful of HEY GAL'S pikemen trying to set up a Viet Cong-style ambush with their pikes. It's hilarious.
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Jun 21, 2015 18:35
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Tomn posted:I'm just taking a moment to try to imagine a handful of HEY GAL'S pikemen trying to set up a Viet Cong-style ambush with their pikes. It's hilarious. branches road signs street lights those old european buildings where the second story is wider than the first electrical wires that people put in weird places above the street
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Jun 21, 2015 18:38
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Tomn posted:On a side note, I just took a closer look through the link. It looks like the author of the article is trying to argue that the issuing of the pikes was actually a cunning and prescient recognition of the fact that the South would have had its best chances of victory by fighting a guerrilla war against the invader and trying to wear the Union forces down morale-wise until they got all Vietnam on the South, in the grand tradition of vastly inferior military forces such as the Mongols and the United States wearing out far superior enemies over time using innovative tactics. Therefore the pike would have been the perfect weapon for Southern guerrillas to use, as it required little training, could be produced quickly, and could be used stealthily. This despite the fact that Governor Brown was also, as the article explains, explicitly demanding that troops take those pikes into the open field and augment bayonet charges with their superior melee capabilities. I'm pretty sure that Reconstruction as fought was actually pretty effective, and wasn't notable for the use of pikes.
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Jun 21, 2015 18:41
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xthetenth posted:I'm pretty sure that Reconstruction as fought was actually pretty effective, and wasn't notable for the use of pikes. It first showcased the most effective weapon to use when fighting against the US: The apathy of the American People 
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Jun 21, 2015 18:56
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Tomn posted:I'm just taking a moment to try to imagine a handful of HEY GAL'S pikemen trying to set up a Viet Cong-style ambush with their pikes. It's hilarious.  Let each man hew him down a bough, and bear it before him. Thereby shall we shadow the number of our host, and make discovery err in report of us.
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Jun 21, 2015 19:01
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Tomn posted:vastly inferior military forces such as the Mongols What? 
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Jun 21, 2015 19:06
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JaucheCharly posted:What? Don't ask me, I'm paraphrasing. Best guess is that he was looking at pure numbers without reckoning in training, equipment, etc?
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Jun 21, 2015 19:20
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Tomn posted:"Pikes" seem to be one of those weapons that keep cropping up in desperation situations. Weren't the Japanese drilling civilians and issuing them pikes of some sort just prior to the atomic bombings? I know there was a brief pike infatuation among some of the more radical factions of the french revolution, I'll see if I can dig something up.
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Jun 21, 2015 19:35
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JaucheCharly posted:What? I think it trying to say that Vietnam that had vastly inferior forces and beat superior forces like the US and the Mongols.
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Jun 21, 2015 20:07
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P-Mack posted:I know there was a brief pike infatuation among some of the more radical factions of the french revolution, I'll see if I can dig something up. For a while in the US Militia/post Contiental Army soldiers were also armed with short pikes. Also, don't forget the NCO's of the 18th century!
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Jun 21, 2015 20:10
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SeanBeansShako posted:Also, don't forget the NCO's of the 18th century! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partisan_(weapon)
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Jun 21, 2015 20:17
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SeanBeansShako posted:Also, don't forget the NCO's of the 18th century! 'Battalion company frippery'?
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Jun 21, 2015 20:32
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There were also the Croft's pikes: From Wikipedia: "By late 1940, the Home Guard had amassed 847,000 rifles, 47,000 shotguns and 49,000 machine guns of various kinds. However, as there were more than 1,682,000 volunteers at the time, this meant that 739,000 men were without a weapon. There was little improvement in June 1941 when Churchill wrote to the War Office saying that "every man must have a weapon of some sort, be it only a mace or a pike." The civil servants took Churchill at his word and ordered 250,000 pikes from the Ministry of Aircraft Production, each consisting of a long steel tube with an obsolete bayonet welded to the end. When the first of these reached the Home Guard, there was uproar and it is thought that none was actually issued to Home Guardsmen. Captain Godfrey Nicholson MP, spoke for Home Guardsmen when he said in the House of Commons that the provision of pikes, "if not meant as a joke, was an insult".[53] Lord Croft, the Under-Secretary of State for War could have correctly blamed the fiasco on Churchill, but attempted to defend the decision, saying that the pike was "a most effective and silent weapon";[54] his name was attached to the affair thereafter.[55] The problem began to be solved when the first mass-produced Sten submachine guns entered service early in 1942.[56]" Sources differ on if they were they ever given to troops. That pic could be about bayonet training?
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Jun 21, 2015 20:32
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Disinterested posted:'Battalion company frippery'? To protect the colours for the colour guard in the case of some nations armies, as well as ensure general discilpine and drill and keep the files in line actually.
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Jun 21, 2015 20:34
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SeanBeansShako posted:To protect the colours for the colour guard in the case of some nations armies, as well as ensure general discilpine and drill and keep the files in line actually. Oh cmon you must have got my reference.
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Jun 21, 2015 20:35
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But yes. Here is a royal welch fusilier guarding the statue of Wellington at Hyde Park Corner:
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Jun 21, 2015 20:36
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Disinterested posted:Oh cmon you must have got my reference. Nope, went under my radar. If it is something to do with a certain TV movie series not watched in in yeeeeeeears.
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Jun 21, 2015 20:37
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SeanBeansShako posted:Nope, went under my radar. If it is something to do with a certain TV movie series not watched in in yeeeeeeears. Sgt. Hakeswill has a pike, and when Harper's shotgun is taken away he complains that Hakeswill should not have a pike either, since it's 'batallion company frippery'.
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Jun 21, 2015 20:37
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