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Two Finger posted:haha you mean like vegeta kicking perfect cell in the head and immediately after has a flashback to his kick failing? Some of that poo poo is awful. It happens really badly in Vegeta's fight with Frieza too, I think about half his battle is either flashbacks or protracted scenes of him gaping in shock. By contrast, stuff like the big windup for Final Flash looks downright artistic
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Jun 21, 2015 22:16
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super bummed that it looks like the first arc is just a retconning of battle of the gods except probably longer and almost certainly not as good
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Jun 22, 2015 03:19
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 Happy Father's day, folks. Give your dads and your big green dads a hug, if you can.
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Jun 22, 2015 03:21
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Piccolo never did meet his own father. That is kind of sad.
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Jun 22, 2015 03:24
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mabels big day posted:Piccolo never did meet his own father. That is kind of sad. Piccolo is his own father.
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Jun 22, 2015 03:25
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mabels big day posted:Piccolo never did meet his own father. That is kind of sad. But he met Kami a bunch of times.
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Jun 22, 2015 03:26
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Kild posted:But he met Kami a bunch of times. But then fused with Kami. Piccolo IS his own father? wait..
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Jun 22, 2015 03:31
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There should be an episode of Super where Pan calls Piccolo grandpa first and Chichi gets mad, but Goku is too busy training to care.
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Jun 22, 2015 06:18
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bobjr posted:There should be an episode of Super where Pan calls Piccolo grandpa first and Chichi gets mad, but Goku is too busy training to care. no even better she calls him Big Green
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Jun 22, 2015 06:20
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Kild posted:But he met Kami a bunch of times. Kami is more like his uncle.
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Jun 22, 2015 08:31
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StrifeHira posted:
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Jun 22, 2015 13:52
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Surely it should say "The prince of all dads".
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Jun 22, 2015 14:07
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Vegeta's a way better dad than Goku
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Jun 22, 2015 14:59
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bobjr posted:There should be an episode of Super where Pan calls Piccolo grandpa first and Chichi gets mad, but Goku is too busy training to care. Grunkle Piccolo
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Jun 22, 2015 16:13
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FeedingHam2Cats posted:Vegeta's a way better dad than Goku King Cold is a better dad than Goku.
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Jun 22, 2015 16:21
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FeedingHam2Cats posted:Vegeta's a way better dad than Goku when he is not murdering people due to having his midlife crisis
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Jun 22, 2015 16:36
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FeedingHam2Cats posted:Vegeta's a way better dad than Goku Yes, but Trunks is also far more...Vegeta...than Gohan. Gohan can show care easily, Trunks is a brat who likes showing he's above everyone else, and likely wouldn't show his love for his dad quite as easily. Trunks is like his parents, Gohan is a weird thing that ended up being nothing like either Goku or Chi-chi.
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Jun 22, 2015 16:48
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Blaze Dragon posted:Yes, but Trunks is also far more...Vegeta...than Gohan. Gohan can show care easily, Trunks is a brat who likes showing he's above everyone else, and likely wouldn't show his love for his dad quite as easily. Gohan is quite literally exactly what Chi-chi wanted him to be. Scholar, and completely not crazy about fighting and training(Aka Not Goku). Goten is what Gohan would have been if Goku had been around to continue to be a bad influence and Chi-chi just gave up, and gave in, along with Trunks being another terrible influence.
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Jun 22, 2015 17:00
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FeedingHam2Cats posted:Vegeta's a way better dad than Goku And young Trunks is a shithead.
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Jun 22, 2015 18:09
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I want Trunks to come back and meet Kid Trunks and think "oh wow, I'm actually glad I wasn't raised by my dad. I turned out way better than this little poo poo."
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Jun 22, 2015 18:15
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Some Numbers posted:I want Trunks to come back and meet Kid Trunks and think "oh wow, I'm actually glad I wasn't raised by my dad. I turned out way better than this little poo poo." That was a thing in an early DBM.. Future Trunks spends all his time helping the planet rebuild, vanilla Trunks is the CEO of a company and does nothing with his spare time.
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Jun 22, 2015 18:20
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Dexo posted:Goten is what Gohan would have been if Goku had been around to continue to be a bad influence and Chi-chi just gave up, and gave in, along with Trunks being another terrible influence. Except weirdly, Goku wasn't around for most of Goten's formative years and Chi-Chi just decided to train him, keeping it secret from Gohan for some reason. I guess she got the scholar bug out of her with Gohan and missed having a fighty man around when Goku died died and took it out on Goten. Or it could just be that Goten was so dumb she decided trying to teach him scholarly stuff was a waste of time, might as roll with the punches.
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Jun 22, 2015 19:50
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tsob posted:Except weirdly, Goku wasn't around for most of Goten's formative years and Chi-Chi just decided to train him, keeping it secret from Gohan for some reason. I guess she got the scholar bug out of her with Gohan and missed having a fighty man around when Goku died died and took it out on Goten. Or it could just be that Goten was so dumb she decided trying to teach him scholarly stuff was a waste of time, might as roll with the punches. Also weirdly Pan is all Fighty, while neither Gohan or Videl are about that life any more. I blame Goku and Satan.
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Jun 22, 2015 20:11
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Dexo posted:Also weirdly Pan is all Fighty, while neither Gohan or Videl are about that life any more. I blame Goku and Satan. To be fair, Goku might be a terrible, terrible, terrible father but he'd make a loving amazing uncle or grandpa.
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Jun 22, 2015 20:16
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tsob posted:Except weirdly, Goku wasn't around for most of Goten's formative years and Chi-Chi just decided to train him, keeping it secret from Gohan for some reason. I guess she got the scholar bug out of her with Gohan and missed having a fighty man around when Goku died died and took it out on Goten. Or it could just be that Goten was so dumb she decided trying to teach him scholarly stuff was a waste of time, might as roll with the punches. This is not the case, since Super confirms that Goten is going to school, so the only real difference is that he isn't home-schooled (which likely brings even more need of money to the already-poor Son family). I think it was just Chi-chi really missing Goku, hence why she raised Goten as far closer to Goku than she did with Gohan. Some Numbers posted:I want Trunks to come back and meet Kid Trunks and think "oh wow, I'm actually glad I wasn't raised by my dad. I turned out way better than this little poo poo." Several videogames have this happening, with Future Trunks being annoyed at his alternate self's personality but amazed by his power (as this takes from the anime, so this timeline's Trunks was able to go Super Saiyan far before the other timeline's Trunks did). Meanwhile, Kid Trunks sees Future Trunks as a cool big bro, it's cute. In Xenoverse, Future Trunks is so goddamn disappointed with his GT self though, it's hilarious.
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Jun 22, 2015 21:29
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Blaze Dragon posted:In Xenoverse, Future Trunks is so goddamn disappointed with his GT self though, it's hilarious. I'll definitely look forward to this.
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Jun 22, 2015 21:33
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I like cocky kid Trunks. He plays nice off of the super naive Goten They make a great team imo
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Jun 23, 2015 08:34
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Quoting this from the 3DS thread.PaletteSwappedNinja posted:DBZ Extreme Butoden has finally been announced - it'll be out on October 16 in PAL-land and October 20 in NA.
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Jun 23, 2015 15:41
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Rirse posted:Quoting this from the 3DS thread. That's good to hear. I'm kinda surprised it's getting essentially a simultaneous release, don't we usually have to wait for these sorts of things?
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Jun 23, 2015 15:48
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goku is a good fatehr who saved the world, nay, the universe multiple times. trunks is a fgt. future trunks is cool.
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Jun 23, 2015 18:22
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Given that the children's lives involved watching their friends die frequently in horrific ways, frequent near death beatings and incredible power thrust upon them at a young age and they haven't become serial killers I'd say Goku and Vegita are doing pretty well as parents given circumstances.
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Jun 24, 2015 17:40
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Guess what, everybody!  The Anatomy of the Art of Dragonball Gaiden, Dragonball vs. Jojo's Bizarre Adventure Previously in this thread we've discussed at length some of the reasons why the art of Dragonball is so appealing and effective. In order to highlight the different techniques Toriyama uses when making a comic, I compared the art of Dragonball with several other comics in similar genres, most of which were poorly planned and executed. Today I'm going to do something different. We're going to compare Dragonball with another comic in a similar genre, but one whose art is equally effective and whose aesthetic and storytelling styles are different in almost every way - Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, particularly the Stardust Crusaders arc. (If you want to catch up on my previous art effort posts, click the ? under my name or read them here: https://manuelamalasanya.wordpress.com/effort-series/) Why compare Dragonball with Jojo? They have a lot in common:
Choosing the right style In a lecture Araki gave on creating comics, he plotted out his conception of the choices a comic book artist faces on this graph (translated by yours truly):  I actually hadn't heard of most of these, so I made an interactive version of this chart that shows you the art of each series, which you can play with here (enable javascript). Araki ranks the art of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure as much closer to realistic than the art of Dragonball. I'm inclined to agree.   But don't make the mistake of thinking that the art of Dragonball is simpler and less detailed than that of Jojo because Toriyama isn't as skilled as Araki (though he may be lazier, I'll give you that.) Notice the detail on the Tenkaichi Budokai arena gate. Toriyama's exaggerated anatomy and spartan linework are deliberate. Before Toriyama or Araki ever pitched their ideas to an editor, they had already committed to the premise of the story they wanted to tell, the genre, and the tone. Their comics would change over time, but the initial decision set the foundation for everything that followed. As both the writers and the artists of their respective comics, Toriyama and Araki also had to commit to an art style. Realism vs. Abstraction The world of Dragonball (gag/fighting genre) is established as one with almost no consequences. This gives Toriyama the freedom to depict a wider range of actions at the expense of emotional verisimilitude. Characters stay static, both an advantage and a disadvantage. Characters can get into situations that would traumatize an ordinary person but be unaffected, making the situation humorous instead of tragic - like when Krillin, Roshi, and Lunch eat improperly cleaned fugu fish or Bulma is almost killed by an underground pirate robot - the disadvantage is that interest can't be maintained through tension alone since the stakes are never too high; furthermore, if a character stays static too long they wear out their welcome and get kind of stale. DB world is not one with deep psychological issues nor emotional suffering. We default to assuming characters aren't emotionally affected and if that isn't the case, we're explicitly told, like when Goku cries when seeing Gohan again and three different characters confirm through dialog that Goku is in fact crying. Since the story, particularly pre-King Piccolo, heavily involves gags and slapstick, a more abstract style is helpful because it makes it harder for the reader to empathize with the physical state of the characters - why would making it harder to empathize be helpful? Let's consider Krillin's fight with Bacterian. Toriyama's intention is for that fight to be a little gross but very silly.  Now imagine seeing an actual 400 pound man wipe smegma on his hands and try to touch a 13-year-old boy with it. No laughing matter there, that's what the sex offender registry is for! By using an abstract style though, a revolting bad-touch scenario instead becomes goofy and harmless. That brings me to another disadvantage. If a comic establishes its setting as one in which there aren't real consequences, the number of physical actions characters can take are virtually unlimited, but the range of mental states available to characters is not. If the author tries to introduce psychological anguish it can come off as pretty weird.   Gonzo McFee posted:Given that the children's lives involved watching their friends die frequently in horrific ways, frequent near death beatings and incredible power thrust upon them at a young age and they haven't become serial killers I'd say Goku and Vegita are doing pretty well as parents given circumstances. Thank you for posting this at the perfect time. With Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, Araki aimed to tell a suspenseful story with sweeping drama and high stakes. For that reason, the world of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure (horror/fighting genre) is established as one of consequences. This gives Araki the freedom to depict intense psychodrama but means the action can't depart too far from what is literally possible. (Part of what makes things in the series bizarre is that what happens stand out next to all the realistic stuff that's already there.) This allows characters to change more realistically over time, making them more complex and it allows the author to keep the story exciting with high stakes and running tension, but the author runs the risk of taking the story in a less interesting direction or having the emotional drama come off as insincere. The world of JJBA is one where characters' emotions are very real and should be inferred from the subtext, since the story isn't going to come right out and tell you how they feel. A more realistic style is ideal for this type of story as it will heighten the reader's engagement with the characters' inner lives and allow the artist to have greater control over characters' expressions. Here's a picture of the bad guy, Dio, mad with power:  Dude has lost it. Compare:  Because the art is more realistic, it makes unrealistic expressions that much more potent. Naturally the disadvantage then is that readers will expect characters to be affected more or less realistically by the events that they experience, so writing in a major event in a character's life closes the door to some possible future plot developments. If a character loses an arm in one story arc, they can't just show up in the next arc with both arms like nothing happened - gotta have a cyborg arm. Contrast with Dragonball where Goku's tail is amputated what feels like half a dozen times. Line art Instead of reinventing the wheel, I'll just post this bit from "Understanding Comics" by Scott McCloud:     I'm sure you can reach your own conclusions. Clarity vs. Intensity Previously I demonstrated the clarity of form in Dragonball by blocking in characters' silhouettes. This time I'm just going to obliterate the details via photoshop filters because doing silhouettes takes loving forever.  I took six pages from Dragonball chapter 159 (Goku vs. King Piccolo) and six pages from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure chapter 262 (Jotaro vs. Dio) and gave them the exact same treatment.Dragonball    Jojo    What that's meant to prove is that overall, Dragonball has much stronger clarity of form (it's easier to tell what the drawings are supposed to represent.) That does not mean necessarily mean that Dragonball's art is better than Jojo's. The reason why Jojo is much less clear than Dragonball is because it has features that make it much more intense. Per Scott McCloud's "Making Comics," intensity comes at the expense of clarity. If the artist pulls it off, it can be well worth the trade-off. Panel Focus/Expression We've previously looked at how Toriyama communicates his narrative with great clarity. There are a bunch of ways Araki ramps up intensity in JJBA, but since this post is getting terrifyingly long, for now I'll just cover the way the two artists frame their characters. Here are all the faces that Goku makes in chapter 159 the same size they appear in relation to each other.  And here's every face Jotaro makes in chapter 262 at the same size they appear in relation to each other.  Nearly every shot of Goku shows his entire body, while Jotaro's face takes up a significant amount of panel real estate. Because Goku is drawn in a very cartoony style, his expressions are easy to parse but limited in nuance, while Jotaro is drawn in a style that's much closer to realism, meaning he has a wider range of subtle emotions but they require more attention from the reader to be read correctly. Clearly in Dragonball the focus is more on what the character is literally doing, while the focus in JJBA is more on how the character is feeling. In light of this, if in a scene Goku and Jotaro are both equally angry, Goku HAS to be much more obviously angry than Jotaro does - in Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, we understand that we're in a world where actions have real consequences, so we can trust that when Dio hurts his friends, Jotaro is really upset under his cool demeanor. We can't trust that a character in Dragonball has any deeper emotion than the one that's obviously on their face. On the flip side, if Araki exaggerates characters' expressions too much then he runs the risk of losing their grounding in reality and making them look emotionally unstable (sometimes he does this on purpose.) Things are a little more ho-hum in Dragonball world.  If this woman were in JJJBA, she'd be monstrously grotesque. In Dragonball she's just a humorously unattractive lady.  In JJBA this is the insane laughter of a disturbed vampire. In Dragonball world, it's just a Super Saiyan bargain sale.  What's next: Extreme violence vs. tight choreography, hyperreal vs. fantasy, panel layout, and transitions. Xibanya fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Jun 24, 2015 |
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Jun 24, 2015 18:51
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If future Trunks was dead and then revised under the original one-resurrection rules, and Dende never changed that, would this mean that baby/ present Trunks could never be revived?
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Jun 24, 2015 19:05
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Chieves posted:If future Trunks was dead and then revised under the original one-resurrection rules, and Dende never changed that, would this mean that baby/ present Trunks could never be revived?
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Jun 24, 2015 19:11
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Steve Jorbs posted:They're separate people from different timelines altogether. Also Future Trunks was killed by Cell and revived and Kid Trunks was killed by Kid Buu and revived later as well. Although I don't remember if Kid Trunks was revived by the Earth or Namek dragon balls which is probably what you're getting at so... Two different version of Trunks were killed in two different timelines, though it was by the same Cell. Kid Trunks was revived by Porunga when he reassembled the Earth.
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Jun 24, 2015 19:29
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So I guess one of the DBM creators has a fursona. That's...unpleasant (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 24, 2015 20:23
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facebook jihad posted:So I guess one of the DBM creators has a fursona. That's...unpleasant So's DBZA's leader writer (he's even called KaiserNeko), unless they're diaperfur otherkin paedophiles or whatever it's really not worth getting bothered about. Furry hate is so early 00s
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Jun 24, 2015 20:28
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A Steampunk Gent posted:So's DBZA's leader writer (he's even called KaiserNeko), unless they're diaperfur otherkin paedophiles or whatever it's really not worth getting bothered about. Furry hate is so early 00s yeah I have to agree, unless they're being incredibly obnoxious and in your face about it(or as mentioned above are of the incredibly disturbing minority that have the really weird kinks), I see no reason to really give Furries the amount of hate that people on SA and other sites(especially 4chan) give them
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Jun 24, 2015 20:45
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I don't even like furries but it's not like there is anything furry related leaking into DBM or DBZA so I have to just give a big ol', "Who cares?"
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Jun 24, 2015 20:46
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'I know the liberals are going to hate me for this but this is what happens when you put a dog in the White House'
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Jun 24, 2015 20:51
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