Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
The Slaughter
Jan 28, 2002

cat scratch fever
My appendix was unexploded, fortunately. Cause I don't got a month and a half.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

sleepy gary
Jan 11, 2006

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_8mdH20qTQ

sanchez
Feb 26, 2003
..

sanchez fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Feb 17, 2016

Jealous Cow
Apr 4, 2002

by Fluffdaddy

sanchez posted:

On sump points, I took a demo flight a few weeks back. The airplane had 3, one in each wing and one in the belly. We were able to test the wings, but the belly sump wouldn't produce anything at all, like it was broken or blocked. The CFI seemed to think this was no big deal and we went flying anyway. Is he going to kill me once instruction starts?

I'd probably move along. What else is he careless about with passengers?

sleepy gary
Jan 11, 2006

Hmm yes there is an unknown problem with the fuel system but whatever let's go!

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
It depends. It could be something he knows about with that specific plane, in which case he's an idiot that doesn't maintain his aircraft properly (or works for a company that doesn't maintain its aircraft properly, more likely), instead of an idiot who would purposefully ignore a problem with the fuel system. Either way, it's bad, but one way you might also want to look for a different company entirely.

The Ferret King
Nov 23, 2003

cluck cluck
Are there planes with sumps after the fuel selector valve? Maybe it was closed.

The C150 I fly has a drain thingy for the lower end of the fuel system but it's in vacuum/doesn't spit out gas if the fuel selector is set to OFF.

sleepy gary
Jan 11, 2006

My C172's (old old model) engine sump just dribbles like it has a prostate issue if I try it with the fuel selector in the off position.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

The Ferret King posted:

Are there planes with sumps after the fuel selector valve? Maybe it was closed.

The C150 I fly has a drain thingy for the lower end of the fuel system but it's in vacuum/doesn't spit out gas if the fuel selector is set to OFF.

Shouldn't the instructor know that, and turn it to the open position as part of the pre-flight?

The Ferret King
Nov 23, 2003

cluck cluck

PT6A posted:

Shouldn't the instructor know that, and turn it to the open position as part of the pre-flight?

100% yes.

Rolo
Nov 16, 2005

Hmm, what have we here?

PT6A posted:

Shouldn't the instructor know that, and turn it to the open position as part of the pre-flight?

Yep. A clogged or contaminated fuel bowl is what you're looking for. Ignoring a clog may as well be you not checking it. I've taken bowls apart and found shredded selector parts in it.

KodiakRS
Jul 11, 2012

:stonk:
Anyone know what's up with SKW restricting all their CRJ's to FL350? Did they have a rash of high altitude low speed incidents?

azflyboy
Nov 9, 2005
From what I've heard, there were several low speed incidents at altitude this year, which may have been exacerbated by SKW issuing ECON cruise speeds that were slow enough to be a setup for an inattentive crew to get themselves in trouble, which is why they also issued new minimum cruise speeds.

Skywest also limited their CRJ-200's to a maximum of FL280, which is equal parts depressing and entertaining.

The Slaughter
Jan 28, 2002

cat scratch fever
That's crazy, but at least there will be more ride reports for the Horizon guys.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Rolo posted:

Yep. A clogged or contaminated fuel bowl is what you're looking for. Ignoring a clog may as well be you not checking it. I've taken bowls apart and found shredded selector parts in it.

It was a rhetorical question, but I quite agree. There's no excuse for cutting corners during the pre-flight, especially when it comes to a possibly-blocked fuel system.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

azflyboy posted:

Skywest also limited their CRJ-200's to a maximum of FL280, which is equal parts depressing and entertaining.

Isn't it more economical to cruise at a higher altitude?

azflyboy
Nov 9, 2005

The Slaughter posted:

That's crazy, but at least there will be more ride reports for the Horizon guys.

One of the advantages of being capped at FL250 is the fact that since no one else flies in our altitude range, we can pretty much change altitudes at will to find smooth air, so we don't seem to request anywhere near as many ride reports as CRJ operators tend to. The lack of traffic at our altitudes also makes it pretty easy to get shortcuts or deviations for weather, which does come in handy during thunderstorm season.

I know the CRJ-200's weren't making that much money before the altitude restrictions, so I'm sure burning the extra gas by flying at turboprop altitudes isn't going to help SKW's financials at all.

PT6A posted:

Isn't it more economical to cruise at a higher altitude?

Yep. Those restrictions were likely put in place because some crews were having problems paying attention to their airspeed at higher altitudes (where there's a smaller margin between the cruise and stall airspeed), so Skywest is basically trading higher fuel costs for reducing the odds one of their crews does something stupid and makes CNN.

azflyboy fucked around with this message at 06:40 on Jun 23, 2015

vessbot
Jun 17, 2005
I don't like you because you're dangerous
I'm still flabbergasted (and sometimes red hot mad) that the world is such that it is possible for Pinnacle 3701 to have happened.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

azflyboy posted:

One of the advantages of being capped at FL250 is the fact that since no one else flies in our altitude range, we can pretty much change altitudes at will to find smooth air, so we don't seem to request anywhere near as many ride reports as CRJ operators tend to. The lack of traffic at our altitudes also makes it pretty easy to get shortcuts or deviations for weather, which does come in handy during thunderstorm season.

I know the CRJ-200's weren't making that much money before the altitude restrictions, so I'm sure burning the extra gas by flying at turboprop altitudes isn't going to help SKW's financials at all.


Yep. Those restrictions were likely put in place because some crews were having problems paying attention to their airspeed at higher altitudes (where there's a smaller margin between the cruise and stall airspeed), so Skywest is basically trading higher fuel costs for reducing the odds one of their crews does something stupid and makes CNN.

I don't know what the fuel burn numbers are like, but wouldn't it make more sense to fly at a higher altitude at a higher IAS than to fly lower and slower? Couldn't you get the same fuel burn at a higher IAS at a higher altitude?

azflyboy
Nov 9, 2005
In addition to the altitude caps, there are also minimum cruise speeds going into effect to provide more of a cushion above the stick shaker, so the airspeed is also being addressed.

The CRJ-200 is somewhat notorious for having lousy climb performance at altitude in hot/heavy conditions, so it's distinctly possible that the airplanes simply don't have the performance to fly fast enough to maintain what someone at SKW thinks is a reasonable buffer at higher altitudes. The CRJ-7 and -900 have substantially better climb performance, which is why they're allowed up to FL350.

MrYenko
Jun 18, 2012

#2 isn't ALWAYS bad...

Please tell me that while they've capped their -200s at FL280, they're still maintaining their RVSM certifications, for maximum :ironicat:.

AWSEFT
Apr 28, 2006

KodiakRS posted:

Anyone know what's up with SKW restricting all their CRJ's to FL350? Did they have a rash of high altitude low speed incidents?

Pinnacle (now Endeavor) also limited the altitude on their CRJ fleet after 3701. Later they carried it over to the -900.

The Ferret King
Nov 23, 2003

cluck cluck
A cautionary article regarding the dangers of misinterpreting Temporary Flight Restriction textual descriptions:

A thump on final

quote:

Without warning, the Baron abruptly yawed 15 degrees right, and there was a thunderous noise on the right side of the aircraft. I was standing on the rudder pedals to maintain directional control and managed to keep things more or less aimed at the runway.

Butt Reactor
Oct 6, 2005

Even in zero gravity, you're an asshole.

azflyboy posted:

I know the CRJ-200's weren't making that much money before the altitude restrictions, so I'm sure burning the extra gas by flying at turboprop altitudes isn't going to help SKW's financials at all.

Yep. Those restrictions were likely put in place because some crews were having problems paying attention to their airspeed at higher altitudes (where there's a smaller margin between the cruise and stall airspeed), so Skywest is basically trading higher fuel costs for reducing the odds one of their crews does something stupid and makes CNN.

Correct, which is why I did a massive :ughh: when I opened my work email yesterday and saw that must-read bulletin. We've gone from cruising at FL410 in all CRJs to the latest reduction today because some idiots pilots forget that the CRJ doesn't have autothrottle, so they'll set it and forget it until the stick shaker goes off. Also creepy that you and kodiak knew about it almost as soon as I did, ya'll read the APC forums on a daily basis or what :tinfoil:

MrYenko posted:

Please tell me that while they've capped their -200s at FL280, they're still maintaining their RVSM certifications, for maximum :ironicat:.

I'm sure we will, I'll check with MX control when I go back to work next week

Rickety Cricket
Jan 6, 2011

I must be at the nexus of the universe!
98% on my CPL written. I didn't study hard enough...

jk :toot:

Two Kings
Nov 1, 2004

Get the scientists working on the tube technology, immediately.

Rickety Cricket posted:

98% on my CPL written. I didn't study hard enough...

jk :toot:

You studied 28% too much.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

azflyboy posted:

From what I've heard, there were several low speed incidents at altitude this year, which may have been exacerbated by SKW issuing ECON cruise speeds that were slow enough to be a setup for an inattentive crew to get themselves in trouble, which is why they also issued new minimum cruise speeds.

Skywest also limited their CRJ-200's to a maximum of FL280, which is equal parts depressing and entertaining.

Just got off a 2 hour long Skywest CRJ200 flight, the FO said "climbing through-to, TO 27,000 feet" I like to believe that it was her disbelief that they were cruising that low.

Duke Chin
Jan 11, 2002

Roger That:
MILK CRATES INBOUND

:siren::siren::siren::siren:
- FUCK THE HABS -

The Ferret King posted:

A cautionary article regarding the dangers of misinterpreting Temporary Flight Restriction textual descriptions:

A thump on final

Just read this article - what exactly is this getting "thumped"? The F-16 trying to get his attention with its wake turbulence?

sleepy gary
Jan 11, 2006

The Ferret King posted:

A cautionary article regarding the dangers of misinterpreting Temporary Flight Restriction textual descriptions:

A thump on final

This is terrifying :stare:

The Ferret King
Nov 23, 2003

cluck cluck

Duke Chin posted:

Just read this article - what exactly is this getting "thumped"? The F-16 trying to get his attention with its wake turbulence?

I don't think intentional exposure to wake turbulence is a consideration necessarily. The F16 buzzed him super close. The attention is supposed to be from the visual/noise. But, as you read, it did more to wreck the pilot's stability and force him to focus on regaining control instead of realizing he was being intercepted.

The Locator
Sep 12, 2004

Out here, everything hurts.





The Ferret King posted:

I don't think intentional exposure to wake turbulence is a consideration necessarily. The F16 buzzed him super close. The attention is supposed to be from the visual/noise. But, as you read, it did more to wreck the pilot's stability and force him to focus on regaining control instead of realizing he was being intercepted.

Why in the hell would they do that on short final anyway? Just get the tail number and report him to the FAA, don't cause him to crash. Jebus.

MrYenko
Jun 18, 2012

#2 isn't ALWAYS bad...

That guy skimmed the NOTAM, half-assed his planning, and violated a presidential TFR. Now, I'm very much of the opinion that the post-9/11 U.S. Federal government is entirely too willing to turn off aviation in entire cities whenever the president goes somewhere to have dinner with rich/celebrity donors, but that doesn't change the fact that DoHS treats presidential TFR violations like every violator has a nuke on board. You need to take that poo poo seriously, because the Feds that meet you on the ramp after you land sure as hell will. The fact that he got off with only a 30 day suspension of his certificate is the most surprising part of the story to me. Conversely, the FAA saying that their own ADS-B-delivered advisory products are not legal as flight-safety material is darkly hilarious, and totally expected. :v:

If you so much as IMAGINE that an area you plan on operating in MIGHT have a TFR at any altitude, let alone a VVIP TFR, you need to be talking to an air traffic controller, and you need to read and re-read the NOTAMs until you're 100% sure you understand them before you go within 100nm of the thing.

As for getting bumped by an F-16... I think there's people in this thread that would pay extra for that... :haw:

The Ferret King
Nov 23, 2003

cluck cluck
If an air traffic controller got distracted with some other traffic and you nicked the edge of a TFR it'd still be your fault anyway. Assuming 2-way communications didn't allow you entry that is.

I'm not sure how secure I'd feel even with ATC contact.

Hauldren Collider
Dec 31, 2012
The fact that the president can lock down entire cities from general aviation just by going there is very stupid and very wrong imo. The fact that the FAA can say their own published material isn't up-to-date is Kafkaesque in the extreme.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

I bet they only gave him a 30 day suspension because if they gave him enough that he'd actually pay to fight it an administrative law judge would see that he used an FAA publication and the judge would blow up and demand they fix it.

Perhaps too cynical.

Also: John Kerry demanded that no TFRs be put over cities he campaigned for president in. Probably because as a general aviation pilot in New England he found them ridiculous.

MrYenko
Jun 18, 2012

#2 isn't ALWAYS bad...

The Ferret King posted:

If an air traffic controller got distracted with some other traffic and you nicked the edge of a TFR it'd still be your fault anyway. Assuming 2-way communications didn't allow you entry that is.

I'm not sure how secure I'd feel even with ATC contact.

Absolutely still the pilot's responsibility to remain clear, but If you're working radar, and an aircraft asks for flight following to XYZ airport, which has a TFR over it, doesn't that set off some alarm bells in your brain? I'm not saying he needed to get an IFR clearance, or even get VFR radar services, but just asking a controller in the area if XYZ was clear of the TFR could have prevented the entire situation. It sounds like he tried to get FF, but the controller was busy, and didn't get to him in time. That happens, but if you're unsure as to the status of a TFR, you should probably stay the hell away until such time as you can be sure, is all I'm saying.

The Ferret King
Nov 23, 2003

cluck cluck

MrYenko posted:

Absolutely still the pilot's responsibility to remain clear, but If you're working radar, and an aircraft asks for flight following to XYZ airport, which has a TFR over it, doesn't that set off some alarm bells in your brain? I'm not saying he needed to get an IFR clearance, or even get VFR radar services, but just asking a controller in the area if XYZ was clear of the TFR could have prevented the entire situation. It sounds like he tried to get FF, but the controller was busy, and didn't get to him in time. That happens, but if you're unsure as to the status of a TFR, you should probably stay the hell away until such time as you can be sure, is all I'm saying.

Yes it sets off alarm bells. But my point about pilot responsibility stands.

I don't think the pilot was feeling unsure about the location of the TFR. He seemed pretty sure he got it right until he got thumped. Sucks he made a mistake.

The Slaughter
Jan 28, 2002

cat scratch fever
I can't think of a single time in 6 years of aviation all around the country that I've actually been denied flight following, even in Chicago. I've been told to standby and had to wait ~10 min but I've never not actually received flight following when persistent. The only exception to that would be areas without radar coverage (low in the MOAs west/nw of KDVT, and on the Big Island in Hawaii at ~3500 ft with the two volcanos blocking the radar both come to mind). This guy says the controller was 'slammed', when that happens I would just keep monitoring the freq and eventually if you're brisk you ought to be able to at least get in a 'approach, cessna 12345, request' and they will remember you and get to you when they can.

MrYenko
Jun 18, 2012

#2 isn't ALWAYS bad...

The Slaughter posted:

I can't think of a single time in 6 years of aviation all around the country that I've actually been denied flight following, even in Chicago. I've been told to standby and had to wait ~10 min but I've never not actually received flight following when persistent. The only exception to that would be areas without radar coverage (low in the MOAs west/nw of KDVT, and on the Big Island in Hawaii at ~3500 ft with the two volcanos blocking the radar both come to mind). This guy says the controller was 'slammed', when that happens I would just keep monitoring the freq and eventually if you're brisk you ought to be able to at least get in a 'approach, cessna 12345, request' and they will remember you and get to you when they can.

Even if you can't get his attention long enough to get a code, you can just ask if the airport of interest is affected by a TFR. He'll probably gladly answer you just to get you to go away. :v:

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

The Slaughter
Jan 28, 2002

cat scratch fever
Depending on the specific nature of the TFR, by talking to the approach controller you may be able to land at the airport affected by the TFR even... especially if it was outer ring like this probably was.

  • Locked thread