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The Mamlukes can tag-switch to either Egypt or Arabia. Egypt requires admin 20 or something instead of 10, in that it is a late game one. (Similar to Greece's requirements, if I recall?) Also I saw Milan win the Burgundian inheritance once. When the royal marriage one triggers instead of the imperial one (generally due to a small emperor), you get some neat results. Bohemian Netherlands is also something I saw once.
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Jun 23, 2015 21:15
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Mans posted:I'm still very unexperienced with this new patch. Jesus it's like a whole new game. I had more fun fighting in a three-separate-but-simultaneous wars as the Ottomans than I ever have before when I finally got to play at length last night. I was the Ottomans, so far having only conquered Greece+Constantinople, Albania, and the Anatolian minors, including Trebizond. Trebizond and Icel still had their forts, along with forts I built in Erzincan and Maras. I attacked Qara Quolunlu for Erzerum and because I wanted to feed Rahba to my OPM vassal (in Ar Raqqa) Syria. The war vs Qara was roughly even on numbers but I still had the 3/3/3/1 starter general the Ottomans get and kept attacking them when they were in the open and was winning battles and sieging the fort in Mosul. Then the Mamluks attacked me, invading from the south. I called off my siege of Mosul in Qara and fell back behind my line of forts to wait and see what would happen. After a few pitched battles with Qara after nuking the Mamluks as they bizarrely trickled into sieges of Maras with stacks of ~10, the Golden Horde -who had eaten Ryazan and half of Crimea plus vassalized Georgia- attacked me, too. In previous circumstances I may have reloaded the last autosave or given up, but I pushed forward. Already low on manpower with a lot of my infantry stacks at half strength, I straight up disbanded all of them (just keeping my cavalry) and started recruiting even more merc infantry while hiding behind my line of castles. Thankfully I had a decent income and naval superiority after one huge battle with the Mamluks, so my trade income was not reduced. Long story short, I eventually won by white-peacing out Golden Horde then taking Rahba and Erzerum from Qara on strength of battles won and occupying the two provinces right before offering the deal. Then I steamrolled the Mamluks, feeding all of not-coastal Syria back to them and getting War reparations and Humiliation out of the Mamluks. It felt so good.
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Jun 23, 2015 21:44
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VDay posted:I feel like the ideas are really well balanced in CS and it just depends on how you play... On the other hand, I have no idea why anyone would ever take Naval ideas, up to and including England.
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Jun 23, 2015 21:45
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Mans posted:So it seems like Economy and Administrative have entered the "why didn't you unlock this" metagame that Quantity previous had. I've played a couple of games with Economic as one of my first three ideas and a couple where I didn't, and I still think Economics is not that good. Administrative, Innovative and Humanist are all better than Economic. Depending on which part of the world you are in Religious and Expansion are also better. I'll break down each of their ideas: +10% National tax modifier - Wow it's nothing. -20% Build cost - A one time expense, who cares +0.10 Yearly inflation reduction - You can just hire a master of mint if you got inflation, anything less than 10% inflation is nothing -1 Interest per annum - Whatever -0.05 Monthly autonomy change - The best part of the idea group -10% Land maintenance modifier - The second best part, rather than giving a tiny increase to tax or production it's better to increase any of the trade modifiers or decrease your army/advisor expenses +10% Production efficiency - Well this is better than tax at least −20% Development cost - Development is underwhelming, it's certainly not something you use your monarch power on unless you are nearly capped out At the end of the day 'slightly making more money' isn't good enough to spend 2800 admin power on when you could've spent those on Administrative or Innovative.
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Jun 23, 2015 21:54
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Also I find buckets of cash less useful now since I don't want to just building spam.
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Jun 23, 2015 21:56
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Yeah I'm obsessed with money and development but I rarely take economic idea because I'm already rolling in money I don't need more. Money is never an issue for me in the game, what is an issue is monarch points, winning battles, and coring costs, that sort of thing.
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Jun 23, 2015 21:56
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Uh what? I'm building a lot more buildings, they don't cost mp anymore. Spare mp is now dev, a huge improvement imo
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Jun 23, 2015 21:58
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Economy is definitely better in the mid-late game, where the +/-10% bonuses actually save/make you a decent chunk of change. Yeah those bonuses aren't anything incredible on their own, but I think the whole point of the group is that once you have a decent-sized nation, the bonuses combine to let your economy just snowball out of control. You go from being (probably) fairly rich to being able to afford whatever you want, including a ton of mercenaries to throw into every war because who cares about their cost when you're making 50-60 ducats per month and sitting on a 15-20k piggy bank. Also money isn't critical, but it can be super nice if you're just sitting on a bunch of it. Building upgrades pay for themselves (you know, eventually...) and being able to afford way more mercenaries than you should have and basically ignore your force limit can be invaluable if you're fighting a big blob/alliance. After you unlock it the +1 force limit building is really good because you just spam it in all of your lovely provinces and suddenly you can bring (and afford) 150k troops to any war while everyone around you is stuck on 100k.
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Jun 23, 2015 22:03
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PleasingFungus posted:On the other hand, I have no idea why anyone would ever take Naval ideas, up to and including England. they need to straight up change how naval combat works if they want naval or maritime to be useful at all
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Jun 23, 2015 22:09
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Vanilla Mint Ice posted:I've played a couple of games with Economic as one of my first three ideas and a couple where I didn't, and I still think Economics is not that good. Administrative, Innovative and Humanist are all better than Economic. Depending on which part of the world you are in Religious and Expansion are also better. I'll break down each of their ideas: Economic's big draws imo are the 20% artillery combat ability and 5% discipline policies that come with offensive and quality. I like it a lot as my second admin group.
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Jun 23, 2015 22:11
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Huh, i don't understand why are you loving administrative ideas so much. Can't really see any great bonuses in there? And quantity also seems bad if you already have plenty of manpower, compared to other military ideas that will make you win more battles and lose less men.
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Jun 23, 2015 22:14
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I do actually find my self spending money more in common sense, but I might just be stepping my game up a bit more and actually playing more competitively. I no longer get half way through the game to notice I'm sitting on 20k gold, I basically spend it all on "stuff". The only problem is when you go beyond being able to afford 3 level 3 advisers. I like the adviser system but I wish there were other ways to sink cash into MP. EU3 had the whole investment system which was micro-managey and not fun but I'd love to have more little monthl budget-level things I spend cash on. I sort of wish development worked that way too, more passive monthly spending vs click a button. So you'd set up a general focus to develop the tax base of your empire and budget X admin points a month, and your provinces would get slowly developed. You could focus on certain regions or individual provinces but it would mostly be out of your hands going on in the background along with some cool new internal economy/politics system. Not like Victoria level crazy, but just something that generally represented the health of your domestic economy, the health and productivity of your people, that sort of thing. I'd love to be able to invest in the welfare of my peasants to make them more free and happy and productive. I'd love to invest in more specific grand public-works type projects with fun bonuses. That sort of thing.
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Jun 23, 2015 22:14
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No the +10% never makes you a decent change, early game mid game end game or whatever game. If you have a a monthly tax income of 3.00 ducat then taking a +10% tax efficiency doesn't make it 3.30, it will more likely make it into 3.12. If the +10% production was goods produced and not production efficiency then it would've been better.
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Jun 23, 2015 22:15
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Back To 99 posted:Huh, i don't understand why are you loving administrative ideas so much. Can't really see any great bonuses in there? And quantity also seems bad if you already have plenty of manpower, compared to other military ideas that will make you win more battles and lose less men. -25% coring cost
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Jun 23, 2015 22:16
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DeeEmTee posted:Economic's big draws imo are the 20% artillery combat ability and 5% discipline policies that come with offensive and quality. I like it a lot as my second admin group. Yeah I forgot to mention that, Economic's best points isn't actually what it offers but the national policies it unlocks. But still it means it should no where near be your first admin idea group (or even second imo)
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Jun 23, 2015 22:17
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Back To 99 posted:Huh, i don't understand why are you loving administrative ideas so much. Can't really see any great bonuses in there? And quantity also seems bad if you already have plenty of manpower, compared to other military ideas that will make you win more battles and lose less men. The -25% core cost also affects time spent coring. The two mercenary ideas it gives makes it amazing from early game for having mercenaries to push you over the edge in a war to end game where you can just have standing mercenary infantries. +10% goods produced is a better money maker than +10% tax and production combined. The -10% admin tech cost means with the idea group fully unlocked you are spending 132 admin power less to tech up admin each time which really adds up if administrative is your first admin idea.
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Jun 23, 2015 22:22
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Vanilla Mint Ice posted:I've played a couple of games with Economic as one of my first three ideas and a couple where I didn't, and I still think Economics is not that good. Administrative, Innovative and Humanist are all better than Economic. Depending on which part of the world you are in Religious and Expansion are also better. I'll break down each of their ideas: I'm playing Portugal now, and I think those are pretty good bonuses for a colonial empire (I grabbed it as my third, after Exploration and Expansion). Even with a master of mint (which you can't always get), I need that extra bit of inflation reduction because of all the gold my American colonies are sending me. All my African and Asian colonies get at least one building each, so the build cost reduction helps there. Since I'm not expanding much in Europe, I do occasionally need to spend some points on development, so that's helpful too. The only things there that don't help me much are extra tax, autonomy reduction and cheaper loans, and both of those might have been useful if I wasn't so rich from trade. If it wasn't for all the inflation from gold fleets I probably would have gone for Administrative instead though, since I'm so reliant on mercenaries.
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Jun 23, 2015 22:23
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DeeEmTee posted:Economic's big draws imo are the 20% artillery combat ability and 5% discipline policies that come with offensive and quality. I like it a lot as my second admin group. Yeah with those two policies it's insanely broken. This means you get a total of +15% discipline along with inherently more powerful infantry and artillery. But yeah, something for later in the game. Other ideas are more useful early on. Imagine being Prussia with 130% discipline. Actually how high could you get it? I forgot you could go absolute monarchy for another +5%, and quality+religious for another +2.5% putting you at 137.5% (Prussian ideas/Protestant/policies/adviser/offensive/quality/absolute monarchy) Japan could technically be at +142.5 I guess since they get +10% discipline instead of +7.5% and they could more realistically change religions to Hindu for the extra +5% bonus with Shakti. aeglus fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Jun 23, 2015 |
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Jun 23, 2015 22:33
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Vanilla Mint Ice posted:No the +10% never makes you a decent change, early game mid game end game or whatever game. If you have a a monthly tax income of 3.00 ducat then taking a +10% tax efficiency doesn't make it 3.30, it will more likely make it into 3.12. If the +10% production was goods produced and not production efficiency then it would've been better. Well yes if you only make 3 ducats a month from tax income then the tax income bonus isn't super great. In my Commonwealth game right now getting a 10% bonus to tax income and a 10% reduction in army maintenance alone would get me an extra 10 ducats a month. That's in 1602. If you think that's a completely worthless bonus to get on top of having cheaper buildings to then spend all that extra money on, quicker autonomy decrease on newly conquered provinces, and an inflation reduction so that I can hire a prestige advisor instead and have better fighting armies then I don't know what to tell you and we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Jun 23, 2015 22:38
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VDay posted:Well yes if you only make 3 ducats a month from tax income then the tax income bonus isn't super great. A lot of people just look at their net profit instead of how much total they make, so a lot might only be making a few ducats and think they'd get .25 a month bonus when really it might be more like 5-10 a month bonus.
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Jun 23, 2015 22:44
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VDay posted:Well yes if you only make 3 ducats a month from tax income then the tax income bonus isn't super great. You are really missing my point just because I used 3 ducat as an example instead of saying 30 or 300. Default:  With a tax advisor  It's nothing quote:In my Commonwealth game right now getting a 10% bonus to tax income and a 10% reduction in army maintenance alone would get me an extra 10 ducats a month. That's in 1602. If you think that's a completely worthless bonus to get on top of having cheaper buildings to then spend all that extra money on, quicker autonomy decrease on newly conquered provinces, and an inflation reduction so that I can hire a prestige advisor instead and have better fighting armies then I don't know what to tell you and we'll just have to agree to disagree. If you purely wanted money, there are other ideas for it that also give useful bonuses.
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Jun 23, 2015 22:49
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Can anyone explain combat a little more? Like Morale vs Discipline vs shock vs fire and all that? Combat mechanics always seem to be changing so I don't trust wiki articles, or are they more or less up to date?
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Jun 23, 2015 22:50
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Back To 99 posted:Huh, i don't understand why are you loving administrative ideas so much. Can't really see any great bonuses in there? To go over details:
Back To 99 posted:And quantity also seems bad if you already have plenty of manpower, compared to other military ideas that will make you win more battles and lose less men.  ); ppppbbbbttttt look here for all of them: http://www.eu4wiki.com/Policiesedit: and the whole thing about more soldiers: yeah you may already have a lot of manpower or whatever, but some times you are small, and having a +50% modifier to your forcelimit and having soldiers that costs 20% less who all have big families who will step in line can "help you win more battles" (though you may lose more men - you have WAY more men, so you come back when your opponent does not). AAAAA! Real Muenster fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Jun 23, 2015 |
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Jun 23, 2015 22:53
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iCe-CuBe. posted:they need to straight up change how naval combat works if they want naval or maritime to be useful at all yeah. naval combat is, and has always been, insanely bad. at least it's funny, now that you can annihilate entire national fleets in completely one-sided battles and dominate worldwide naval power with minimal effort. iirc eu3/early eu4 naval combat was bad in a different way...
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Jun 23, 2015 22:53
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Was there an ETA on the patch that redoes development costs? I think that might be a good time to start a new non-European game.
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Jun 23, 2015 22:55
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Luigi Thirty posted:Was there an ETA on the patch that redoes development costs? I think that might be a good time to start a new non-European game.
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Jun 23, 2015 22:58
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PleasingFungus posted:yeah. naval combat is, and has always been, insanely bad. I always make it an end game goal to destroy all of the big navies in Europe. One stack of 30 big ships is usually enough to destroy everything. Naval combat in this game is dumb and the naval AI is even more dumb.
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Jun 23, 2015 22:59
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Naval combat is in need of a massive overhaul. That said, I think in single player naval and maritime ideas aren't required but in multiplayer if you're an island and you don't go maritime and naval you're going to get killed by one who did. The naval combat bonuses you get from both pretty much guarantee you'll win. Even though I had more ships, better ships, and a better admiral, it's still crazy that I didn't lose a single ship here even though it was an inland sea against 600 galleys. A few years before I wiped a fleet from an enemy who didn't have naval or maritime but still had twice as many heavy ships as I did. 
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Jun 23, 2015 23:00
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Vanilla Mint Ice posted:You are really missing my point just because I used 3 ducat as an example instead of saying 30 or 300. It's 6 ducats a month. Combined with about 10 ducats a month that you'd be saving with the -10% army maintenance bonus. 16 ducats a month from just two idea bonuses in a group that also keeps your inflation down, autonomy down, lets you spam buildings to further pump up your base tax and manpower/force limits, and has two fantastic policies when taken with two popular military ideas. That really doesn't sound that terrible to me, although again it depends on how you play and what region you're in and whether or not you're actually willing to spam buildings and develop to get the most out of the idea group. Also I don't think anyone is suggesting that it's good as one of the first ideas.
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Jun 23, 2015 23:09
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Vanilla Mint Ice posted:+10% National tax modifier - Wow it's nothing. Eh, I'd actually like to disagree on more than a few of these points. - (+10% National Tax Mod) The national tax modifier doesn't do a lot if you're making 3 ducats a month, yeah. But if you're only making a gross profit of three ducats a month then you'd also be a very small power which will probably be expanding a ton in the future. The average large-sized nation in the mid-game will likely make around 20 ducats in taxation, in which case the bonus is way better. The same goes for the production efficiency modifier. - (-20% Build cost) Buildings are not a "one time cost". The discount saves you a hell of a lot of money when building improvements, which means the economic development of your nation will be much faster and more efficient. You definitely feel the bonus even more once you start getting into the buildings that have a value of +400 ducats, like manufactories. - (+.10 inflation reduction) I don't know about you, but it doesn't seem like that brilliant of an idea to rely on the game to spawn masters of mint of an appropriate level of skill and cost for you on a consistent and reliable basis. And the post above also makes the point that the spot can easily be filled with a more advantageous advisor. Hell, I'd even say Economic is necessity if you plan on either taking or colonizing gold provinces at all; the benefit of not having to constantly spend very valuable admin points on inflation reduction is god drat indispensable. - (-1 Interest per annum) I have to agree this isn't exactly a really great idea overall, but it can still help out in a pinch if your manpower runs low and you're caught in a bad situation where you need to hire lots and lots of mercenaries with loans. Also, while the finisher is weak right now, it'll get a lot better when the +5 per development is removed from the development costs. Economic is a hella good idea group that I'd definitely recommend for any playthrough, especially if you plan on colonizing South/Central America or take any gold provinces. The bonuses can very easily save you a whole ton of money and admin power. VerdantSquire fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Jun 23, 2015 |
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Jun 23, 2015 23:14
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GreyjoyBastard posted:They can at least turn into Arabia, because that's how all the boring people like me got the coffee achievement! I'm too cool for that so I did it as Ethiopia after Prester John achievement, just culture-flipped to Egyptian as soon as I could and turned into Coptic Arabia later
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Jun 23, 2015 23:14
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So, I just came across Wiz's post about taking out the 5 monarch point increase per development. Am I wrong, or is the cost of improving a province going to go from the red line to the blue line? (y-axis is the cost in monarch points to improve the province one more time, whereas the x-axis is the number of times the province has been improved) This is assuming it started at 0 development which, yeah, is impossible, but makes things easier.  Because if so that's a pretty huge improvement.
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Jun 23, 2015 23:18
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Luigi Thirty posted:Was there an ETA on the patch that redoes development costs? I think that might be a good time to start a new non-European game. I swear I saw end of June somewhere - which would be next week some time I guess - but that seems too soon for another patch. And yeah don't be surprised if the development thing goes through slightly differently to what was discussed on the forums otherwise every grassland province is going to end up with gigantic amounts of development and everything else will be lovely wastelands. Either the terrain penalties will be reduced or the scaling increasing % cost will be more than 1% per development or possibly both. The reduced number of buildings is already a pretty harsh penalty on weaker terrain types, the increased development cost on top of that makes it a total no go for developing.
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Jun 23, 2015 23:23
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Bort Bortles posted:It only works if they are in your religious group, which I guess if you go from Catholic to Protestant you should be able to intercept their tithes to the pope and tell them to stop. I resent you saying Shirvan is a lovely land, as I had the same problem in my Shirvan game (besides the Persia trade node is great). I tried to get my sunni vassals to switch to shia. I got the negative modifier, but they immediately switched back or something got bugged with it. I tried 2 times on each of my two sunni marches in that game. I think there might be some small problem with this mechanic in the muslim religion group.
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Jun 23, 2015 23:23
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aeglus posted:Yeah with those two policies it's insanely broken. This means you get a total of +15% discipline along with inherently more powerful infantry and artillery. Probably EU4 should re-evaluate how bonuses stack. It would create fewer discrepancies if you got the value of your highest bonus, plus a consistent fraction (2/5?) of all other bonuses. So currently for land morale Prussia (20%) plus Defensive (15%) plus Reformed with war fervor (15%) plus Advisor (10%) plus Defender of the Faith (5%) nets you a cool 165% morale. If you've ever played with it, you know that it's bonkers. If you scale all but the largest bonuses, then you get: Prussia (20%) plus Defensive (6%) plus Reformed with war fervor (6%) plus Advisor (4%) plus Defender of the Faith (2%) for a total of 138% morale. This is itself pretty outrageously hard to fight against (remember when France got +33% morale?) but not completely ludicrous, like 165% is. But it's not just about the total bonus. It also changes the marginal return on investing heavily in morale. If our hypothetical Prussia goes up against someone with no +morale, they could grab an advisor and get the full +10% out of it. But if our hypothetical Prussia were fighting someone with Defensive ideas, their choice to stack the advisor would only get them a total of 17% morale, instead of 25% morale. Diversification would be key: +15% morale and +5% discipline would be better than +15% morale and +10% morale, or +7.5% discipline and +5% discipline. This affects multiplayer more than singleplayer. In singleplayer it's entirely viable to just stack all the bonuses and the AI isn't going to have a bad time when you just overrun them by going pure military. Also, EU4 should represent China better.
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Jun 23, 2015 23:25
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Anyone have any tips for what a first idea group should be? I always end up getting totally paralyzed when I have to pick my first group when I'm not a colonizing nation.
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Jun 23, 2015 23:26
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If you are small and need money as a non-colonizing nation I would go Trade. It is the quickest and easiest way to get richer. And as a non-colonizing nation the extra merchants are good to have for your expansion. The admin points can be scarce at the start if you expand so I usually don't take an admin idea group first unless I need religious asap. And military as first idea group is not a good idea as getting up to tech 8 quickly is a priority.
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Jun 23, 2015 23:32
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James The 1st posted:Anyone have any tips for what a first idea group should be? I always end up getting totally paralyzed when I have to pick my first group when I'm not a colonizing nation. The most common answer you'll get is: it depends. Personally, and this is by no means min/maxed or super optimized (in fact I'd love some feedback and see what others are doing), I've fallen into the pattern of always starting with a diplo idea, followed by a military one, followed by either another diplo or admin idea. This is usually because I play a more vassalizing nation and focus on diplo-annexing rather than taking cores directly early on. Diplo points just seem the most expandable early on, so while I save up admin points for coring and unlocking admin tech to get ideas asap, diplo points just kind of sit there and are only really used for peace deals and maybe a war exhaustion bump. Military is meanwhile always saved to rush to ~10 in order to get cannons and generally try to stay ahead of my neighbors. The timing works out pretty well that by the time I've unlocked my second idea group I'm ahead enough in military that I can afford to fill out at least like half of a military set. That's been my gameplan in general, but you can certainly do about a million other things instead. Admin first/early is a really popular option for the coring cost and the early -10% tech cost bonus, as are religious and expansion for certain nations. Overall it's pretty hard to screw up and pick a bad idea group, as long as you actually try to take advantage of your unlocked ideas. ie: If you take quantity, make sure you can afford all those troops you'll be able to build and that you're actually going to war instead of just having a giant army sitting and costing you money.
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Jun 23, 2015 23:38
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Never open with a military idea, is the main rule. I don't think it depends all that much though- influence if you're somewhere where you'll likely expand through lots of vassalization (i.e. the HRE), exploration if you're in Iberia, and admin in most every other situation since admin points are super scarce this patch. As a tiny country where you literally don't have enough money to survive and overreaching with your conquests is unlikely I guess trade might be tempting, but I tend to think of it as a bit of a trap if you're western, since there are better ways to get merchants if you're going the trade game, and if you're not going the trade game it's not very useful anyway. Trujillo posted:Naval combat is in need of a massive overhaul. That said, I think in single player naval and maritime ideas aren't required but in multiplayer if you're an island and you don't go maritime and naval you're going to get killed by one who did. The naval combat bonuses you get from both pretty much guarantee you'll win. Huh even with the buff this last patch I don't really get the appeal of naval, I should look at it more. But I don't understand the maritime hate at all, just the repairs-while-not-docked thing alone completely changes the naval game (and so, colonial and trade games too). And the extra force limits are phenomenal. If I have any aspirations outside of my home continent (which I always do), I nearly always take maritime. e: oh 10% ship durability is pretty cool, i never noticed that part Baronjutter posted:Can anyone explain combat a little more? Like Morale vs Discipline vs shock vs fire and all that? Combat mechanics always seem to be changing so I don't trust wiki articles, or are they more or less up to date? They haven't changed at all actually, the only thing changed since launch is the unit types in different tech groups. I think the wiki article should be fine. Koramei fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Jun 23, 2015 |
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Jun 23, 2015 23:47
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James The 1st posted:Anyone have any tips for what a first idea group should be? I always end up getting totally paralyzed when I have to pick my first group when I'm not a colonizing nation. As for what TO take, For Diplomatic Ideas.... If you think you will need to help keep yourself alive by making friends, take Diplomatic. If you think you will have lots of vassals (taking land indirectly) and want to optimize that, take Influence. If you are an Island Nation, take Maritime. If you are in position to take advantage of having ~5 Merchants, take Trade (I would not recommend it as a first idea, though) Dont take Espionage. For Admin Ideas... Innovative is pretty meh right now, but has some great associated policies and events. Religious is great for you know what. Economic has been covered at length within the last page or two, is probably a better 2nd admin idea pick. Expansion you are probably familiar with as someone who has colonized, probably not a good first pick if you are not colonizing. Admin was also discussed at length within the last page or two, a great pick if you need mercenaries and/or plan on directly conquering a lot of land. Humanist is great if you want to avoid unrest, it really shines when you are conquering lots of diverse land.
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Jun 23, 2015 23:50
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