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Captain Postal
Sep 16, 2007

goose fleet posted:

Why did nobody bother trying to figure out human anatomy in ancient civilizations?
Also artists like Da Vinci dissected every body they could find and did detailed study of anatomical structure so they could do more accurate paintings and sculptures. That wasn't a thing until the renaissance.

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Tunicate
May 15, 2012

Egyptian doctors were also considered super great, though.

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009

As always In our time has us covered in this topic

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03c4dys

I believe all the things being talked about here are discussed in this episode.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Tunicate posted:

Egyptian doctors were also considered super great, though.

If I remember rightly, though, it was a super mixed bag. Like, they figured some positive consequences of honey being anaerobic, but then would also put mouse droppings in something else.

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?


That sort of thing pops up a lot. I think it's Galen who talked about how pouring boiling wine in wounds seemed to make them less likely to get infected but they didn't know enough to take the next step.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Grand Fromage posted:

That sort of thing pops up a lot. I think it's Galen who talked about how pouring boiling wine in wounds seemed to make them less likely to get infected but they didn't know enough to take the next step.

This brings up another interesting point: until very recently, even if medical treatment was advanced enough to fix you up, the treatment itself probably really loving sucked. Jesus, that must sting.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

PT6A posted:

This brings up another interesting point: until very recently, even if medical treatment was advanced enough to fix you up, the treatment itself probably really loving sucked. Jesus, that must sting.

Was it Cato the Elder who recommended making up a horrible sounding cabbage stew as a cure-all that took so long to make that by the time it was finished you were either dead or already getting better?

Ancient Romans loving loved cabbage.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

Jerusalem posted:

Was it Cato the Elder who recommended making up a horrible sounding cabbage stew as a cure-all that took so long to make that by the time it was finished you were either dead or already getting better?

Ancient Romans loving loved cabbage.

I love how this thread repeats itself. It's so...appropriate.

Keldoclock
Jan 5, 2014

by zen death robot
We're all part of the shitposting Ouroboros.

Tunicate
May 15, 2012

homullus posted:

If I remember rightly, though, it was a super mixed bag. Like, they figured some positive consequences of honey being anaerobic, but then would also put mouse droppings in something else.

The Edwin Smith papyrus shows that at least some of it was pretty advanced.

I've heard that sending a guy an Egyptian doctor was pretty significant when conducing diplomacy.

Zopotantor
Feb 24, 2013

...und ist er drin dann lassen wir ihn niemals wieder raus...

Friendly Tumour posted:

Anyway, medical knowledge among other things the West forgot made a real and this time lasting return to Europe with the Conquest of Toledo and the Fall of Constantinopolis in the 14th century. Obviously it took time to spread and be integrated and to get improved on, but it's really the reintroduction of literacy that's the key point in when doctors stopped using cow dung on stab wounds.

But then you find things like this.

goose willis
Jun 14, 2015

Get ready for teh wacky laughz0r!
Back in ancient times, how did you become a doctor? More importantly, how did you prove you were one?

MrNemo
Aug 26, 2010

"I just love beeting off"

You told people you were a doctor, you were maybe able to name some famous doctor or school you had studied at or were able to provide the name of someone you had worked for/treated previously. After that you had to have the right tools and act in an authoritative and knowledgeable enough way that people believed you knew what you were talking about. The final step was successfully treating someone.

You will note that there isn't really a point where an actual doctor with training and experience is going to get told apart from a charlatan, especially if a lot of treatment at the time was based on cow farts and wishes. I guess the fact that if a charlatan gets rumbled he'll probably get a stabbing, a hiding or even sold into slavery might do it. Also in Roman times doctors were mostly Greek slaves so I don't think there were many non-slaves who pretended they were really doctors.

fantastic in plastic
Jun 15, 2007

The Socialist Workers Party's newspaper proved to be a tough sell to downtown businessmen.
In the Greek context, it was somewhere between a guild and a religious cult. The part of the Hippocratic oath that doesn't really get talked about is a long list of duties that the newly-minted student will owe to his teacher, like always helping his teacher out in court, giving him refuge, showing deference, that kind of thing. That's all in there in the same oath as the "I won't harm my patients, or [assist their suicide attempts] or [assist their abortions]" stuff.

Proving that you were one was probably being able to trace back to who taught you. Apprenticeships last a long time and there aren't that many doctors around, so people would know that Dr. Quintus is teaching Decius and Septimus, so if one day they start calling themselves doctors, it's cool.

If some foreigner shows up and says he's a doctor, well, doctoring's a pretty technical profession, so you'd probably get your doctor to interview him and make sure he knows which end of the knife to cut with.

communism bitch
Apr 24, 2009

Friendly Tumour posted:

What? How the hell does the Reformation figure into this?
Are you unable to read

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?


PT6A posted:

This brings up another interesting point: until very recently, even if medical treatment was advanced enough to fix you up, the treatment itself probably really loving sucked. Jesus, that must sting.

No poo poo. Though they were aware opium worked as a painkiller so if you were super lucky you might have that. Probably not though.

Still, if your choice is have boiling wine poured in your arm wound or lose the arm/your life to gangrene...

Exioce
Sep 7, 2003

by VideoGames
That brings me back to my Modern Man In Ancient Society question! I know two things - the principle of distillation, and that distilled beverages kill germs rather effectively and get you very very drunk. I'm rich! So very rich!

buckets of buckets
Apr 8, 2012

CHECK OUT MY AWESOME POSTS
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These greek slaves, were they slaves before they were conquered, prisoners of war, or did the Romans walk down the streets saying 'you, you and you are slaves now. Off to med school with you'

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?


For educated slaves, people might've chosen it for their children. If you were a peasant and had a bright (male) kid, that kid's life as an educated slave like a doctor would probably be better than as a free peasant.

alex314
Nov 22, 2007

Exioce posted:

That brings me back to my Modern Man In Ancient Society question! I know two things - the principle of distillation, and that distilled beverages kill germs rather effectively and get you very very drunk. I'm rich! So very rich!

Until local vine mogul sends people to shank you in your workplace.. I imagine best bet would be entering employment of someone important, then you could use your knowledge of destilation. I imagine most people here have some idea on how printing press works, so that's another sure moneymaker.

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?


Printing press is a good call. I think most people could figure it out, it doesn't require any technology not available at the time, and has obvious utility.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006

I've heard experiments with boiling wine have shown it's not a very good antiseptic because of the sugar content, so maybe the translation isn't quite right. Maybe it was a stronger alcohol?

V. Illych L.
Apr 11, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

"not very good" is still better than "no antiseptic at all", mind

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?


Sugar is antibacterial though, that doesn't seem right. Also we still aren't entirely sure what they mean by wine a lot of the time.

I would think any boiling hot liquid would help disinfect a wound.

Disinterested
Jun 29, 2011

You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

Grand Fromage posted:

Sugar is antibacterial though, that doesn't seem right. Also we still aren't entirely sure what they mean by wine a lot of the time.

I would think any boiling hot liquid would help disinfect a wound.

And, in fact, honey and vinegar were also used.

Guildencrantz
May 1, 2012

IM ONE OF THE GOOD ONES

Grand Fromage posted:

Printing press is a good call. I think most people could figure it out, it doesn't require any technology not available at the time, and has obvious utility.

Although considering how Renaissance people immediately latched on to the defamatory pamphlet as a primary mode of literary expression, it probably wouldn't play out too well for the aspiring printing mogul. Your first major customer would be someone wanting five hundred pamphlets about how Gaius Bigwig likes to get assfucked by slave boys, then two days later your print shop mysteriously burns down.

Disinterested
Jun 29, 2011

You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?
So long Palmyran ruins.

Kemper Boyd
Aug 6, 2007

no kings, no gods, no masters but a comfy chair and no socks

alex314 posted:

Until local vine mogul sends people to shank you in your workplace..

They'd make a bundle because up until fairly recent times, wine was a perishable good. Distilled spirits were hella great because you could actually store them.

Dalael
Oct 14, 2014
Hello. Yep, I still think Atlantis is Bolivia, yep, I'm still a giant idiot, yep, I'm still a huge racist. Some things never change!

Disinterested posted:

So long Palmyran ruins.

Wait.. what?

Did ISIS finally take over? Are they destroying everything? Fuuck! :argh:

Dalael
Oct 14, 2014
Hello. Yep, I still think Atlantis is Bolivia, yep, I'm still a giant idiot, yep, I'm still a huge racist. Some things never change!

Dalael posted:

Wait.. what?

Did ISIS finally take over? Are they destroying everything? Fuuck! :argh:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/24/middleeast/syria-isis-palmyra-shrines/
gently caress them... gently caress all of them.

Exioce
Sep 7, 2003

by VideoGames

Dalael posted:

Wait.. what?

Did ISIS finally take over? Are they destroying everything? Fuuck! :argh:

They're destroying anything idolatrous - i.e. stone faces/bodies and the tombs of dead folk.

As tragic as it is, those ruins don't compare to the life of a single innocent, so I guess if they're busting them they're not doing evil to anyone in the meantime :shrug:

Power Khan
Aug 20, 2011

by Fritz the Horse

Arglebargle III posted:

I've heard experiments with boiling wine have shown it's not a very good antiseptic because of the sugar content, so maybe the translation isn't quite right. Maybe it was a stronger alcohol?

Wine is the strongest (hopefully ethanol) alcohol containing liquid that can be made with regular fermentation. Anything above a max 23% kills off the yeast. Regular strains of yeast for winemaking die somewhat earlier, I learned in school that it is little above 12%. Simple boiling in a pot to increase the % is impossible, as the alcohol evaporates before the water does. You need a distillery setup to catch the ethanol, which is condensated via running the gaseous phase through a cooled flask setup.

e: It seems yeast and fermentation is a complex issue and that strains that can take +20% are somewhat recent inventions. I kinda wonder how strong these old wines could get with the fermentation as it was back then.

Power Khan fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Jun 24, 2015

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006

Grand Fromage posted:

Sugar is antibacterial though, that doesn't seem right. Also we still aren't entirely sure what they mean by wine a lot of the time.

I would think any boiling hot liquid would help disinfect a wound.

Sugar is antibacterial in high enough concentrations to kill simple organisms by osmosis. In lower concentrations it's food. The problem was that you've disinfected the wound, but after the wine cools off (if it is in fact 10% abv grape wine) you've left a bunch of bacteria food in and on the wound. Boiling spirits would make more sense and maybe that's what ancient writers meant was what this article said.

JaucheCharly posted:

Wine is the strongest (hopefully ethanol) alcohol containing liquid that can be made with regular fermentation. Anything above a max 23% kills off the yeast. Regular strains of yeast for winemaking die somewhat earlier, I learned in school that it is little above 12%. Simple boiling in a pot to increase the % is impossible, as the alcohol evaporates before the water does. You need a distillery setup to catch the ethanol, which is condensated via running the gaseous phase through a cooled flask setup.

e: It seems yeast and fermentation is a complex issue and that strains that can take +20% are somewhat recent inventions. I kinda wonder how strong these old wines could get with the fermentation as it was back then.

I think you misunderstood the question. When was distillation invented anyway?

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011




Grand Fromage posted:

For educated slaves, people might've chosen it for their children. If you were a peasant and had a bright (male) kid, that kid's life as an educated slave like a doctor would probably be better than as a free peasant.

In Ancient Egypt people would not just voluntarily become temple slaves, they would actually pay for it because it was that much better than being a poor peasant.

Power Khan
Aug 20, 2011

by Fritz the Horse
The core of your question was why boiling wine isn't a good antiseptic. Good is relative, compared to what else? Boiling wine makes the ethanol evaporate and so making a barely effective desinfectant even more useless. The only positive thing that boiling does is kill the yeast and other bacteria in the solution. There must have been some merit to this method compared to boiling water?

The sugar that you introduce into the wound is going to be a problem like you said, also the additional injury that you induce by pouring the boiling solution over and into the wound. On the other hand, to really sterilize water, you need to boil it for a prolonged period. 100°C kills most, but not all. Water taken from a river or a well might be problematic, even after boiling it. Modern medical equipment is sterilized in sort of a pressure cooker that goes well beyond 100°C.

So maybe bringing a strong wine to a short boil makes sense, because first, the initial concentration of ethanol means that most bacteria and fungal spores in the solution are already dead (and thus making it relatively sterile from the start) and second, a strong wine also means that the process of fermentation is more complete, leaving less sugar in the solution. With what else could you clean a wound?

Low concentration spirits would make a good sterile solution to start with. Though ethanol in too high concentration has another sideeffect that doesn't make application in an open wound not desirable, it widens the capillaries, causing additional bleeding. It could be very well that some sort of spirit is meant with wine, it needs to be over 20% to be effective though. Destilation was know at the time.

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?


I believe Galen had also figured out (or was the one who wrote it down anyway) that putting your surgical instruments in fire or boiling them before use seemed to help. In general the Romans understood that good hygiene and cleanliness kept disease down, which was one of the bigger things medieval Europe lost.

E: Also Galen was targeted to military doctors, I believe. A lot of the 'wine' that legions drank was basically vinegar, which may be part of it.

EE: Also I was just reading a bit and dissecting humans was illegal under Roman law, which is a good reason why they didn't learn anatomy as well as Renaissance people.

Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Jun 24, 2015

Disinterested
Jun 29, 2011

You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

Grand Fromage posted:

I believe Galen had also figured out (or was the one who wrote it down anyway) that putting your surgical instruments in fire or boiling them before use seemed to help. In general the Romans understood that good hygiene and cleanliness kept disease down, which was one of the bigger things medieval Europe lost.

E: Also Galen was targeted to military doctors, I believe. A lot of the 'wine' that legions drank was basically vinegar, which may be part of it.

EE: Also I was just reading a bit and dissecting humans was illegal under Roman law, which is a good reason why they didn't learn anatomy as well as Renaissance people.

Although the history of stuff like public bathing is a really mixed one in medieval history. I remember someone posting about it before.

sbaldrick
Jul 19, 2006
Driven by Hate

Grand Fromage posted:

No poo poo. Though they were aware opium worked as a painkiller so if you were super lucky you might have that. Probably not though.

Still, if your choice is have boiling wine poured in your arm wound or lose the arm/your life to gangrene...

My favorite random historical Medical story is Queen Marie of Romania was talking to her grandmother Queen Victoria about the birth of her youngest child and had received Chloroform for the pain. She was embarrassed by that as you know "stiff upper lip" and all that, but Victoria apparently laughed and said if it had existed during her childbirth she would have used a whole bottle.

Basically everyone in history knew medicine was pretty much a crap shot and if it worked then you tried it. Leeches are great of wounds as they promote healing, but not great at much else.

WoodrowSkillson
Feb 24, 2005

*Gestures at 60 years of Lions history*

Exioce posted:

They're destroying anything idolatrous - i.e. stone faces/bodies and the tombs of dead folk.

As tragic as it is, those ruins don't compare to the life of a single innocent, so I guess if they're busting them they're not doing evil to anyone in the meantime :shrug:

suboptimal posted:

In other news, IS put out a new video that shows them executing prisoners accused of spying in Ninevah, Iraq by:

1. Loading prisoners into a locked car and then shooting it with an RPG
2. Lowering a cage full of prisoners into a pool and filming them with GoPros as they drown
3. Chaining prisoners together at the neck with detcord, then blowing them up.

Obviously I'm not loving linking to this, but holy loving poo poo.

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PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
I'm normally not a very revenge-minded person, but I think if the Caliph gets caught alive, we should see if we can get the Coliseum operational again with a couple of lions or tigers.

EDIT: After "healing" any of his wounds with boiling wine, of course.

PT6A fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Jun 24, 2015

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