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goose fleet posted:Why did nobody bother trying to figure out human anatomy in ancient civilizations?
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Jun 24, 2015 01:01
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Egyptian doctors were also considered super great, though.
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Jun 24, 2015 01:08
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As always In our time has us covered in this topic http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03c4dys I believe all the things being talked about here are discussed in this episode.
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Jun 24, 2015 02:10
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Tunicate posted:Egyptian doctors were also considered super great, though. If I remember rightly, though, it was a super mixed bag. Like, they figured some positive consequences of honey being anaerobic, but then would also put mouse droppings in something else.
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Jun 24, 2015 02:12
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That sort of thing pops up a lot. I think it's Galen who talked about how pouring boiling wine in wounds seemed to make them less likely to get infected but they didn't know enough to take the next step.
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Jun 24, 2015 02:32
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Grand Fromage posted:That sort of thing pops up a lot. I think it's Galen who talked about how pouring boiling wine in wounds seemed to make them less likely to get infected but they didn't know enough to take the next step. This brings up another interesting point: until very recently, even if medical treatment was advanced enough to fix you up, the treatment itself probably really loving sucked. Jesus, that must sting.
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Jun 24, 2015 02:54
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PT6A posted:This brings up another interesting point: until very recently, even if medical treatment was advanced enough to fix you up, the treatment itself probably really loving sucked. Jesus, that must sting. Was it Cato the Elder who recommended making up a horrible sounding cabbage stew as a cure-all that took so long to make that by the time it was finished you were either dead or already getting better? Ancient Romans loving loved cabbage.
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Jun 24, 2015 03:39
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Jerusalem posted:Was it Cato the Elder who recommended making up a horrible sounding cabbage stew as a cure-all that took so long to make that by the time it was finished you were either dead or already getting better? I love how this thread repeats itself. It's so...appropriate.
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Jun 24, 2015 04:56
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We're all part of the shitposting Ouroboros.
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Jun 24, 2015 05:14
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homullus posted:If I remember rightly, though, it was a super mixed bag. Like, they figured some positive consequences of honey being anaerobic, but then would also put mouse droppings in something else. The Edwin Smith papyrus shows that at least some of it was pretty advanced. I've heard that sending a guy an Egyptian doctor was pretty significant when conducing diplomacy.
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Jun 24, 2015 05:51
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Friendly Tumour posted:Anyway, medical knowledge among other things the West forgot made a real and this time lasting return to Europe with the Conquest of Toledo and the Fall of Constantinopolis in the 14th century. Obviously it took time to spread and be integrated and to get improved on, but it's really the reintroduction of literacy that's the key point in when doctors stopped using cow dung on stab wounds. But then you find things like this.
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Jun 24, 2015 05:59
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Back in ancient times, how did you become a doctor? More importantly, how did you prove you were one?
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Jun 24, 2015 06:00
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You told people you were a doctor, you were maybe able to name some famous doctor or school you had studied at or were able to provide the name of someone you had worked for/treated previously. After that you had to have the right tools and act in an authoritative and knowledgeable enough way that people believed you knew what you were talking about. The final step was successfully treating someone. You will note that there isn't really a point where an actual doctor with training and experience is going to get told apart from a charlatan, especially if a lot of treatment at the time was based on cow farts and wishes. I guess the fact that if a charlatan gets rumbled he'll probably get a stabbing, a hiding or even sold into slavery might do it. Also in Roman times doctors were mostly Greek slaves so I don't think there were many non-slaves who pretended they were really doctors.
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Jun 24, 2015 07:00
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In the Greek context, it was somewhere between a guild and a religious cult. The part of the Hippocratic oath that doesn't really get talked about is a long list of duties that the newly-minted student will owe to his teacher, like always helping his teacher out in court, giving him refuge, showing deference, that kind of thing. That's all in there in the same oath as the "I won't harm my patients, or [assist their suicide attempts] or [assist their abortions]" stuff. Proving that you were one was probably being able to trace back to who taught you. Apprenticeships last a long time and there aren't that many doctors around, so people would know that Dr. Quintus is teaching Decius and Septimus, so if one day they start calling themselves doctors, it's cool. If some foreigner shows up and says he's a doctor, well, doctoring's a pretty technical profession, so you'd probably get your doctor to interview him and make sure he knows which end of the knife to cut with.
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Jun 24, 2015 07:09
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Friendly Tumour posted:What? How the hell does the Reformation figure into this?
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Jun 24, 2015 07:15
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PT6A posted:This brings up another interesting point: until very recently, even if medical treatment was advanced enough to fix you up, the treatment itself probably really loving sucked. Jesus, that must sting. No poo poo. Though they were aware opium worked as a painkiller so if you were super lucky you might have that. Probably not though. Still, if your choice is have boiling wine poured in your arm wound or lose the arm/your life to gangrene...
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Jun 24, 2015 07:18
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That brings me back to my Modern Man In Ancient Society question! I know two things - the principle of distillation, and that distilled beverages kill germs rather effectively and get you very very drunk. I'm rich! So very rich!
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Jun 24, 2015 09:23
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These greek slaves, were they slaves before they were conquered, prisoners of war, or did the Romans walk down the streets saying 'you, you and you are slaves now. Off to med school with you'
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Jun 24, 2015 09:32
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For educated slaves, people might've chosen it for their children. If you were a peasant and had a bright (male) kid, that kid's life as an educated slave like a doctor would probably be better than as a free peasant.
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Jun 24, 2015 09:34
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Exioce posted:That brings me back to my Modern Man In Ancient Society question! I know two things - the principle of distillation, and that distilled beverages kill germs rather effectively and get you very very drunk. I'm rich! So very rich! Until local vine mogul sends people to shank you in your workplace.. I imagine best bet would be entering employment of someone important, then you could use your knowledge of destilation. I imagine most people here have some idea on how printing press works, so that's another sure moneymaker.
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Jun 24, 2015 09:37
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Printing press is a good call. I think most people could figure it out, it doesn't require any technology not available at the time, and has obvious utility.
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Jun 24, 2015 09:40
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I've heard experiments with boiling wine have shown it's not a very good antiseptic because of the sugar content, so maybe the translation isn't quite right. Maybe it was a stronger alcohol?
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Jun 24, 2015 10:39
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"not very good" is still better than "no antiseptic at all", mind
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Jun 24, 2015 11:08
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Sugar is antibacterial though, that doesn't seem right. Also we still aren't entirely sure what they mean by wine a lot of the time. I would think any boiling hot liquid would help disinfect a wound.
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Jun 24, 2015 11:08
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Grand Fromage posted:Sugar is antibacterial though, that doesn't seem right. Also we still aren't entirely sure what they mean by wine a lot of the time. And, in fact, honey and vinegar were also used.
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Jun 24, 2015 11:34
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Grand Fromage posted:Printing press is a good call. I think most people could figure it out, it doesn't require any technology not available at the time, and has obvious utility. Although considering how Renaissance people immediately latched on to the defamatory pamphlet as a primary mode of literary expression, it probably wouldn't play out too well for the aspiring printing mogul. Your first major customer would be someone wanting five hundred pamphlets about how Gaius Bigwig likes to get assfucked by slave boys, then two days later your print shop mysteriously burns down.
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Jun 24, 2015 11:37
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So long Palmyran ruins.
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Jun 24, 2015 11:54
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alex314 posted:Until local vine mogul sends people to shank you in your workplace.. They'd make a bundle because up until fairly recent times, wine was a perishable good. Distilled spirits were hella great because you could actually store them.
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Jun 24, 2015 13:27
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Disinterested posted:So long Palmyran ruins. Wait.. what? Did ISIS finally take over? Are they destroying everything? Fuuck! 
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Jun 24, 2015 14:03
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Dalael posted:Wait.. what? http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/24/middleeast/syria-isis-palmyra-shrines/ gently caress them... gently caress all of them.
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Jun 24, 2015 14:04
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Dalael posted:Wait.. what? They're destroying anything idolatrous - i.e. stone faces/bodies and the tombs of dead folk. As tragic as it is, those ruins don't compare to the life of a single innocent, so I guess if they're busting them they're not doing evil to anyone in the meantime 
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Jun 24, 2015 14:08
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Arglebargle III posted:I've heard experiments with boiling wine have shown it's not a very good antiseptic because of the sugar content, so maybe the translation isn't quite right. Maybe it was a stronger alcohol? Wine is the strongest (hopefully ethanol) alcohol containing liquid that can be made with regular fermentation. Anything above a max 23% kills off the yeast. Regular strains of yeast for winemaking die somewhat earlier, I learned in school that it is little above 12%. Simple boiling in a pot to increase the % is impossible, as the alcohol evaporates before the water does. You need a distillery setup to catch the ethanol, which is condensated via running the gaseous phase through a cooled flask setup. e: It seems yeast and fermentation is a complex issue and that strains that can take +20% are somewhat recent inventions. I kinda wonder how strong these old wines could get with the fermentation as it was back then. Power Khan fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Jun 24, 2015 |
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Jun 24, 2015 14:26
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Grand Fromage posted:Sugar is antibacterial though, that doesn't seem right. Also we still aren't entirely sure what they mean by wine a lot of the time. Sugar is antibacterial in high enough concentrations to kill simple organisms by osmosis. In lower concentrations it's food. The problem was that you've disinfected the wound, but after the wine cools off (if it is in fact 10% abv grape wine) you've left a bunch of bacteria food in and on the wound. Boiling spirits would make more sense and maybe that's what ancient writers meant was what this article said. JaucheCharly posted:Wine is the strongest (hopefully ethanol) alcohol containing liquid that can be made with regular fermentation. Anything above a max 23% kills off the yeast. Regular strains of yeast for winemaking die somewhat earlier, I learned in school that it is little above 12%. Simple boiling in a pot to increase the % is impossible, as the alcohol evaporates before the water does. You need a distillery setup to catch the ethanol, which is condensated via running the gaseous phase through a cooled flask setup. I think you misunderstood the question. When was distillation invented anyway?
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Jun 24, 2015 15:07
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Grand Fromage posted:For educated slaves, people might've chosen it for their children. If you were a peasant and had a bright (male) kid, that kid's life as an educated slave like a doctor would probably be better than as a free peasant. In Ancient Egypt people would not just voluntarily become temple slaves, they would actually pay for it because it was that much better than being a poor peasant.
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Jun 24, 2015 15:54
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The core of your question was why boiling wine isn't a good antiseptic. Good is relative, compared to what else? Boiling wine makes the ethanol evaporate and so making a barely effective desinfectant even more useless. The only positive thing that boiling does is kill the yeast and other bacteria in the solution. There must have been some merit to this method compared to boiling water? The sugar that you introduce into the wound is going to be a problem like you said, also the additional injury that you induce by pouring the boiling solution over and into the wound. On the other hand, to really sterilize water, you need to boil it for a prolonged period. 100°C kills most, but not all. Water taken from a river or a well might be problematic, even after boiling it. Modern medical equipment is sterilized in sort of a pressure cooker that goes well beyond 100°C. So maybe bringing a strong wine to a short boil makes sense, because first, the initial concentration of ethanol means that most bacteria and fungal spores in the solution are already dead (and thus making it relatively sterile from the start) and second, a strong wine also means that the process of fermentation is more complete, leaving less sugar in the solution. With what else could you clean a wound? Low concentration spirits would make a good sterile solution to start with. Though ethanol in too high concentration has another sideeffect that doesn't make application in an open wound not desirable, it widens the capillaries, causing additional bleeding. It could be very well that some sort of spirit is meant with wine, it needs to be over 20% to be effective though. Destilation was know at the time.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:19
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I believe Galen had also figured out (or was the one who wrote it down anyway) that putting your surgical instruments in fire or boiling them before use seemed to help. In general the Romans understood that good hygiene and cleanliness kept disease down, which was one of the bigger things medieval Europe lost. E: Also Galen was targeted to military doctors, I believe. A lot of the 'wine' that legions drank was basically vinegar, which may be part of it. EE: Also I was just reading a bit and dissecting humans was illegal under Roman law, which is a good reason why they didn't learn anatomy as well as Renaissance people. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Jun 24, 2015 |
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Jun 24, 2015 16:26
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Grand Fromage posted:I believe Galen had also figured out (or was the one who wrote it down anyway) that putting your surgical instruments in fire or boiling them before use seemed to help. In general the Romans understood that good hygiene and cleanliness kept disease down, which was one of the bigger things medieval Europe lost. Although the history of stuff like public bathing is a really mixed one in medieval history. I remember someone posting about it before.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:39
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Grand Fromage posted:No poo poo. Though they were aware opium worked as a painkiller so if you were super lucky you might have that. Probably not though. My favorite random historical Medical story is Queen Marie of Romania was talking to her grandmother Queen Victoria about the birth of her youngest child and had received Chloroform for the pain. She was embarrassed by that as you know "stiff upper lip" and all that, but Victoria apparently laughed and said if it had existed during her childbirth she would have used a whole bottle. Basically everyone in history knew medicine was pretty much a crap shot and if it worked then you tried it. Leeches are great of wounds as they promote healing, but not great at much else.
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Jun 24, 2015 17:02
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Exioce posted:They're destroying anything idolatrous - i.e. stone faces/bodies and the tombs of dead folk. suboptimal posted:In other news, IS put out a new video that shows them executing prisoners accused of spying in Ninevah, Iraq by:
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Jun 24, 2015 17:16
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I'm normally not a very revenge-minded person, but I think if the Caliph gets caught alive, we should see if we can get the Coliseum operational again with a couple of lions or tigers. EDIT: After "healing" any of his wounds with boiling wine, of course. PT6A fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Jun 24, 2015 |
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Jun 24, 2015 17:33
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