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Rhesus Pieces posted:So the Citadel is removing the Confederate navy jack from their chapel, and the governor of Alabama just ordered the battle flag removed from their statehouse grounds. I'm honestly shocked that this is happening so fast and in so many venues. Latter coupled with a number of mid-high level GOP members calling for it's removal and nobody wants to be left out of the movement.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:31
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In a couple months it'll be "see! I'm not racist! I don't fly that flag!" instead of not saying the n word to mean not racist.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:34
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DemeaninDemon posted:In a couple months it'll be "see! I'm not racist! I don't fly that flag!" instead of not saying the n word to mean not racist. Yeah, people will point out how Wal-Mart or some other major employer mistreats minority workers even worse than white workers and they'll release a press release saying that they pulled the Confederate Flag from their shelves as proof they aren't racist, and that will be a compelling argument for many people.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:37
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So I was trying to figure out why I was seeing so many people defending the confederate flag in my Facebook feed, and then I realized that I come from an area that has a festival called "Bushwhacker Days." It's literally a celebration of the Missouri Bushwhackers. Then I remembered that every year they'd ask National Guard members to march in the Bushwhacker parade. Funny thing is the most conservative guy I know in that town from my old unit has a burning hatred for the confederacy and it's symbols that my own can not begin to rival. At any rate, I'm betting I'm going to see a fuckload of those flags next time I drive south to see my buddies.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:38
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zoux posted:I don't think that anyone who is flying the Confederate flag in their yard is going to stop. I think a lot of people who didn't fly the flag in their yard are going to start as a gently caress you to "liberals". Their political leaders are decrying it. Their idols in NASCAR are calling for it to come down. Walmart of all places is no longer selling it. Let the people who desperately cling to it as defiance against "Liberals", as it will make them easier to politically marginalize. What I want Democratic leadership, and Media heads to start doing, is "asking questions" of various Republicans about their veneration of Forrest, Lee and other such monsters. Why Calhoun, slave senator extraordiare, isn't pilloried from all sides if they're so against that part of their past? That sort of thing could push it further and further into the light. Sure they would just be pandering to not appear racist. That's good. That means that they lose those open, legitimizing voices in the public sphere.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:38
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The nerve of those people, hypothetically acting in a way we don't like!
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Jun 24, 2015 16:39
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zoux posted:I don't think that anyone who is flying the Confederate flag in their yard is going to stop. I think a lot of people who didn't fly the flag in their yard are going to start as a gently caress you to "liberals". Good. Makes it easier to find out who the racists are.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:43
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Don't get me wrong though. I'm more than happy to see any step forward even if it's just a millimeter. Doesn't hurt that all the frothy rage coming from racists makes me giggle like an idiot either.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:43
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Hopefully Minneapolis will finally rename Lake Calhoun something tasteful. Like Eelpout Lake, or Lake Lutefisk.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:44
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zoux posted:This was our best opportunity to discuss how hateful rhetoric and speech lead to violent outcomes and instead of tackling issues of racism we are all arguing about a loving flag. The flag is an issue of racism and as pure an example of hateful rhetoric and speech as you could imagine. Tearing down these symbols is a refutation of the endorsement of this speech and making it clear this kind of rhetoric is unacceptable. Activists chose this as the issue to push on for a reason.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:44
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For some reason Zoux seems to be inventing and then railing against a succession of straw men that don't exist. Seriously, who has declared Who has said they'll be cool with Wal-Mart being a life-smothering evil mass if they just stop selling the stars & bars? It's all bullshit. People are literally just pleasantly surprised that anything positive of any kind has happened at all in response to this. That's it. How you confuse that with people thinking full Communism now just won at everything is beyond me. e: I type badly. sean10mm fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Jun 24, 2015 |
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Jun 24, 2015 16:45
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berzerker posted:The nerve of those people, hypothetically acting in a way we don't like! You mean the ones who are already flooding social media with their declarations of pride in the confederate flag? The nerve of them is that they know full well that they're doing it to intimidate black men and women, to show that they're racists and proud of it. Why else would non-southern rural white folks be obsessed with it just as hard? They're just mad because the government is not legitimizing it for them this time, and like always, they cry persecution.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:48
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Drone posted:I dunno, a more meaningful push for actual, real gun control would matter a whole lot more than lowering a piece of cloth from a flagpole, even if what that piece of cloth stands for is completely reprehensible. I'm sorry, but I'm gonna go with fighting racism as more important and appropriate than pushing gun control in this particular situation. I may be a "waste of valuable political clout for you", but it's certainly not for everyone. berzerker posted:The nerve of those people, hypothetically acting in a way we don't like!
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Jun 24, 2015 16:52
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Alabama has just removed the flag http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/24/alabama-confederate-flag_n_7654056.html 
Mr Ice Cream Glove fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Jun 24, 2015 |
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Jun 24, 2015 16:53
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What Zoux's argument really comes down to is that that Zoux knows better than the black people who are pushing this about what will help black people, and that Zoux knows better than the activists who have been building these organizations about what these organizations can presently accomplish. Fried Chicken fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Jun 24, 2015 |
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Jun 24, 2015 16:53
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Haha yeah that's my argument. That's what I'm arguing. Good poo poo Buddy.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:55
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sean10mm posted:For some reason Zoux seems to be inventing and then railing against a succession of straw men that don't exist. Hey go check out all the major news media sites and tell me how many of them have leading stories about the shooting itself and not the flag.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:56
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zoux posted:Hey go check out all the major news media sites and tell me how many of them have leading stories about the shooting itself and not the flag.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:58
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Fried Chicken posted:What Zoux's argument really comes down to is that that Zoux knows better than the black people who are pushing this about what will help black people, and that Zoux knows better than the activists who have been building these organizations about what these organizations can presently accomplish. I mean, does he or doesn't he? e: clarifying that that's a direct and honest question I don't know the answer to
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Jun 24, 2015 16:59
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JT Jag posted:The shooting happened a week ago, this flag stuff is happening right now. This is how the news works. After the Newtown massacre do you think that the major news outlets were doing stories on it a week out?
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Jun 24, 2015 16:59
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JonathonSpectre posted:Just imagine a world where the Union army, with its vast advantage in manpower and material, starts the war off with a brilliant commander like Lee and not the parade of nitwit fuckups they actually had until Meade got the call just before Gettysburg. With Lee in command for the U.S., the war is likely over in a few months, most of the south is not burned to the ground, who knows how many future Johann Sebastian Bachs, Albert Einsteins, and Thomas Edisons are not sacrificed on the altar of defending slavery, and more than half a million people don't die. I do wonder what that would mean for the passing of the 13th Amendment (or similar versions). Some slaveowners (Sam Houston, etc) could rightly justify that they weren't part of the rebellion and it's just the "bad ones" that should be punished, not slavery as an institution.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:59
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GlyphGryph posted:Am I going to get a response? Nah, probably not. To what? This? GlyphGryph posted:Who has lumped all southerners into an evil other? You're the first person I've noticed who has used "Southerners" completely unqualified.
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Jun 24, 2015 17:03
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computer parts posted:I do wonder what that would mean for the passing of the 13th Amendment (or similar versions). Some slaveowners (Sam Houston, etc) could rightly justify that they weren't part of the rebellion and it's just the "bad ones" that should be punished, not slavery as an institution. "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." Lincoln's First Annual Message to Congress, December 3, 1861. Though to be honest Lincoln's solution was 'separate but equal' / 'go back to Africa'
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Jun 24, 2015 17:05
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God drat goons, the fact that anything is being done in this gridlocked, clusterfucked country of ours is awesome. And this is not just anything, this is a nationwide d&d about the meaning of the loving Civil War and the traitors who fought against the U.S. No, it's not a straight-up magical bullet that somehow ends systemic racism, but if you think what is happening right now is not valuable and is not getting a lot of people to actually, you know, think about the Civil War, its legacy, and what it still means today then you are just kinda stupid. I've been (loudly!) raging against this traitor-worship for years here in the Deep South, and seeing the rapid and total collapse of support for the southern swastika is loving amazing. This is loud, unambiguous rejection and denial of what is probably the greatest symbol of open racism in our history, and people on here are saying this is a meaningless gesture! SYMBOLS HAVE POWER, that's why they are symbols in the first loving place, and oh my seeing this symbol take its proper place in the muck is long, long overdue. Don't underestimate the follow-on ripples that may (note I said may) come from this! People who would never have done so before are googling things like "Nathan Bedford Forrest" and "Wade Hampton" and finding out just what a monstrous abomination the Confederacy, its "peculiar institution," and the way of life sustained by said "peculiar institution" are. That's awesome, and rather than whining about how this isn't the cure for racism, you should be doing what I am doing, which is pestering my representatives in Tallahassee to remove that loving statue of Edmund Kirby Smith from Statuary Hall and start renaming Confederate poo poo around the state in favor of loyal Union men like the #1 American badass George Meade or the mother-fuckin' Torch of God himself, W.T. Sherman.
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Jun 24, 2015 17:05
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zoux posted:Yeah, people will point out how Wal-Mart or some other major employer mistreats minority workers even worse than white workers and they'll release a press release saying that they pulled the Confederate Flag from their shelves as proof they aren't racist, and that will be a compelling argument for many people. Just about anything would be a compelling argument for those people, because racism and racist symbolism is so prevalent in society that it's fairly normalized. Symbols matter, and a public outcry over racist symbols is meaningful in terms of the modern discourse on race and the racial history of the country. While it's good to advocate for large change, small change is still vitally important and should be supported.
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Jun 24, 2015 17:05
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zoux posted:After the Newtown massacre do you think that the major news outlets were doing stories on it a week out?
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Jun 24, 2015 17:06
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sugar free jazz posted:Just about anything would be a compelling argument for those people, because racism and racist symbolism is so prevalent in society that it's fairly normalized. Symbols matter, and a public outcry over racist symbols is meaningful in terms of the modern discourse on race and the racial history of the country. While it's good to advocate for large change, small change is still vitally important and should be supported. I do support it, I'm just dismayed that the national conversation has shifted so readily onto a symbolic tangential issue. This position has made some posters in this thread Extremely Mad. JT Jag posted:If a ton of private gun sellers volunteered to step up their gun screening protocols or something like that just a week after the shootings, I'm willing to bet that stories about the shooting itself would have been displaced by a story about something caused by the shooting. Gun screening protocols would be positive and measurable change.
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Jun 24, 2015 17:07
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berzerker posted:There was a post just prior to this that either I misread or there was an edit (probably me misreading) talking about "the most bizarre thing about white Southerners" and "Southerners that hate everything about America." I sincerely apologize for making a correct statement about black Southerners being Southerners too, in response to misreading a post. Apology accepted. As to the ongoing conversation about whether zoux is right and everyone else wrong: I too hope that this goes further than the whole flag thing, but the flag thing is not nothing.
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Jun 24, 2015 17:08
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McDowell posted:"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." Lincoln's First Annual Message to Congress, December 3, 1861. Right, but Lincoln wouldn't necessarily have sole purview. Abolition wasn't nearly as popular as containment at the time, and people tend to be more sympathetic of their enemies when their children haven't been put through a meat grinder.
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Jun 24, 2015 17:10
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GlyphGryph posted:I'm sorry, but I'm gonna go with fighting racism as more important and appropriate than pushing gun control in this particular situation. I may be a "waste of valuable political clout for you", but it's certainly not for everyone. Yeah, removing a piece of cloth but doing nothing about the sentiment behind it is curing racism. Thanks for finally solving that problem for us. Meantime the 10,000 people who died to guns last year in the US will be thanking you too.
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Jun 24, 2015 17:10
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I think the more important question is: is this flag stuff making wishy washy white liberals feel good? I think that answer is unequivocally and emphatically yes. We did it yall. We have overcome.
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Jun 24, 2015 17:12
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Drone posted:Yeah, removing a piece of cloth but doing nothing about the sentiment behind it is curing racism. Thanks for finally solving that problem for us.
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Jun 24, 2015 17:12
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JT Jag posted:Who is actually saying that this fixes racism oh my god People are saying that it's fine if the only outcome from the national discussion on race engendered by the AME shooting is that you can't buy a Stars n Bars belt buckle at Wal Mart. They are also saying this is real and meaningful change.
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Jun 24, 2015 17:13
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Stripping the country of symbols of racial oppression and shutting down public reverence of those symbols and institutions makes it less likely in the future that people like Dylann Roof would become radicalized in the first place, because they're not primed for it by being born and raised in a society where those symbols are prevalent. This is far from a feel-good measure, this is the proverbial ounce of prevention. The denazification process shouldn't stop there, of course.
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Jun 24, 2015 17:16
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zoux posted:People are saying that it's fine if the only outcome from the national discussion on race engendered by the AME shooting is that you can't buy a Stars n Bars belt buckle at Wal Mart. They are also saying this is real and meaningful change. It's almost like racism is a nebulous, broad societal issue that is difficult to unambiguously assess, unlike something like gun control where there's statistics. Some people don't understand this and want some sort of definitive thing to point to before it can be proven to them that something has an effect on it.
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Jun 24, 2015 17:19
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computer parts posted:Right, but Lincoln wouldn't necessarily have sole purview. Abolition wasn't nearly as popular as containment at the time, and people tend to be more sympathetic of their enemies when their children haven't been put through a meat grinder. Slavery was becoming obsolete because of technology, so inevitably it becomes a question of how human beings are compensated for their labor. It is hard to imagine slavery surviving the shift from 1860 (with 50+% of people working in agriculture) to today.
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Jun 24, 2015 17:20
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zoux posted:People are saying that it's fine if the only outcome from the national discussion on race engendered by the AME shooting is that you can't buy a Stars n Bars belt buckle at Wal Mart. They are also saying this is real and meaningful change. This is objectively real change. You can't argue it isn't. Just last year Nikki Haley was saying she doesn't see what's wrong with it. How meaningful it is is absolutely up for debate, but I'd argue that it is detectably meaningful if not deeply so. This was very recently politically untouchable in SC, and that fact alone makes this change meaningful to some degree.
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Jun 24, 2015 17:20
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zoux posted:People are saying that it's fine if the only outcome from the national discussion on race engendered by the AME shooting is that you can't buy a Stars n Bars belt buckle at Wal Mart. They are also saying this is real and meaningful change. Who is saying this? And it doesn't "solve" racism", but it is a long-overdue societal course correction that should have happened the day after Appomattox. No one is saying Wal-Mart is no longer a lovely corporate giant that treats its workers like dogs, and no one is saying that lovely conservative politicians are now paragons of moral virtue because they bowed to public pressure. We're saying it's a step in the right direction.
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Jun 24, 2015 17:20
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Drone posted:Yeah, removing a piece of cloth but doing nothing about the sentiment behind it is curing racism. Thanks for finally solving that problem for us. "No, you don't understand", he cried, "Anything that isn't doing exactly what I want couldn't possibly be helping anyone!"\ So, let's ignore your pet hobby horse and your need to make every situation about it and it alone, and talk about what you would want us to do, as the next (but not final) step, that is better than denormalizing symbols of racial hatred and oppression? Alter Ego posted:Who is saying this? JT Jag posted:Who is actually saying that this fixes racism oh my god No one! But it's almost like that doesn't matter...
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Jun 24, 2015 17:20
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Zoux is literally never happy or satisfied with anything, so I don't know why y'all would expect her to be happy about this.
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Jun 24, 2015 17:20
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