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McAlister posted:She was First Lady of Arkansas, a practicing lawyer, actively working on improving AK's school system, and also pushing climate change and health care initiatives. okay, some facts: She is extremely pro-Israel, going above and beyond Obama's positions She voted for the Iraq War She voted for the PATRIOT Act quote:The Clintons were stockholders in Wal-Mart at the time she was a board member,[44] and Rose Law Firm, where Clinton was a partner had Wal-Mart as a client.[45] While a board member, Clinton had been silent about the company's infamously anti-labor union practices,[46][47] although she pushed successfully for the chain to adopt more environmentally-friendly practices[46] and had pushed largely unsuccessfully for more women to be added to the company's management.[46] She's against raising the tax cap for Social Security I'm glad that she pushed for environmental measures on her time on Wal Mart's board, but labor issues are very important to a ton of people (me especially!) so it's still a pretty valid criticism! Are we allowed to criticize her on these issues or are we just 'ignoring facts' that she is the Azor Ahai of Democratic politics?
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Jun 24, 2015 15:12
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Remember this guy who I posted is saying No to taking down the flag? well.... quote:"These people sat in there and waited their turn to be shot," Chumley said. "That's sad. Somebody in there with a means of self-defense could've stopped this." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/24/bill-chumley-charleston-shooting_n_7653182.html
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Jun 24, 2015 15:13
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berzerker posted:As opposed to what? The guy shoots people in a church so we overthrow the fetters of capitalism and rework society overnight into a glorious new era? Breaking down symbolic ties to a racist past matters. Not really. Especially since this will give people a sense of accomplishment and progress that will dampen the will to do other practically important things like talk about and remedy actual racism instead of symbolic racism. I mean, gently caress the Confederate flag, but people dusting off their hands and feeling like they've won a major battle is not accurate. Especially since for a time the fuckheads who love the CSA are going to fly the flag even more in protest.
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Jun 24, 2015 15:13
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Mr Ice Cream Glove posted:Remember this guy who I posted is saying No to taking down the flag? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQM4ebFILv4
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Jun 24, 2015 15:15
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Mr Ice Cream Glove posted:Remember this guy who I posted is saying No to taking down the flag? I hope all the hand waiving gives this man a stroke and he loses speaking privileges.
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Jun 24, 2015 15:15
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zoux posted:Not really. Especially since this will give people a sense of accomplishment and progress that will dampen the will to do other practically important things like talk about and remedy actual racism instead of symbolic racism. It's a start and something that needs to happen but yeah America usually only has the political will and energy to get one thing done every year or so.
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Jun 24, 2015 15:15
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Good news, these 9 people have not died in vain! Wait Confederate flag sales are up 3600%
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Jun 24, 2015 15:18
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zoux posted:Not really. Especially since this will give people a sense of accomplishment and progress that will dampen the will to do other practically important things like talk about and remedy actual racism instead of symbolic racism. I agree, that Montgomery bus boycott was a waste of time.
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Jun 24, 2015 15:21
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zoux posted:Good news, these 9 people have not died in vain! Wait Confederate flag sales are up 3600% http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/18/hostess-twinkies-demand_n_3615900.html
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Jun 24, 2015 15:22
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zoux posted:Good news, these 9 people have not died in vain! Wait Confederate flag sales are up 3600% Gee who could have predicted that major retailers announcing they'd stop supplying them would lead to hoarders and businesses that see an opportunity to stock up. Not very shocking or disappointing.
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Jun 24, 2015 15:23
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berzerker posted:I agree, that Montgomery bus boycott was a waste of time. Haha, yeah same thing there  I'm glad you're perfectly satisfied with the national response to this shooting. 
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Jun 24, 2015 15:23
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SgtScruffy posted:I feel bad for Palin. Yeah, she says some dumb stuff and has probably done some level of damage to the political system... but in reality, she was a small-town governor who was probably somewhat in over her head as goverrnor, then got rocketed to the race for the second highest office in the land simply because she was an attractive (politically and otherwise) young woman. All that stress probably caused her to hit the bottle (or whatever) pretty hard to deal, and now it's all coming crashing down. I don't, for this one reason: She could have said no. She could have told John McCain "No, thank you. I don't believe I'm ready." Fritz Coldcockin fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Jun 24, 2015 |
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Jun 24, 2015 15:24
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McDowell posted:Memorials/museums can be given additional context - the popular understanding of the Civil War absolutely needs to change. Slavery has always been unjust - but it only became economically obsolete with the advent of industrialization - where literally owning human muscle power is now clearly inferior to owning a machine that can do the same work. The ruling class in the South was so attached to this economic model they broke up the nation trying to preserve it. The fact that this caste system used childish logic based on phenotype hasn't done this country any favors. This pretty much incoherent slop - you want to add context so that people will realize they shouldn't honor the man the memorials are made to honor and somehow expect them not to ask the question "well if we shouldn't honor him why do we have a memorial honoring him?" But what the hell, I'll bite - please explain your plan to give additional context and information that can be absorbed and understood by drivers and passengers as they blow down Jefferson Davis highway at 70 mph. While you are at it please provide a resolution to the contradiction of "why have a statue honoring the man when we have signs saying don't honor him". Remember that unlike places such as the Holocaust museum, which exists to educate, the point of these memorials are explicitly to honor and praise these people (eg the statues in Austin that for vandalized last night)
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Jun 24, 2015 15:25
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Now that the flag is gone, shall we discuss the racist rhetoric and internet support groups that the shooter engaged in and reinforced his radicalization?
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Jun 24, 2015 15:25
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zoux posted:Now that the flag is gone, shall we discuss the racist rhetoric and internet support groups that the shooter engaged in and reinforced his radicalization? Hey so since you can see the future and complain about outcomes that haven't even happened yet, how about you tell me next weeks powerball numbers?
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Jun 24, 2015 15:29
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Fried Chicken posted:Hey so since you can see the future and complain about outcomes that haven't even happened yet, how about you tell me next weeks powerball numbers? I can look at national news coverage today and see nothing about the shooting but tons of stuff about the confederate flag. I mean is your argument that "Hey, you don't know if the national news media will suddenly shift the narrative that has already developed and replaced the original story less than a week after the event"? Because that's a pretty weak loving argument.
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Jun 24, 2015 15:31
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zoux posted:I can look at national news coverage today and see nothing about the shooting but tons of stuff about the confederate flag. I mean is your argument that "Hey, you don't know if the national news media will suddenly shift the narrative that has already developed and replaced the original story less than a week after the event"? Because that's a pretty weak loving argument. Your argument is that the large groups that have been building for the past few years that mobilized here and started pushing on confederate symbolism will evaporate after this and not continue to build grow and work towards their goals. Guess which argument is weaker?
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Jun 24, 2015 15:36
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Fried Chicken posted:Your argument is that the large groups that have been building for the past few years that mobilized here and started pushing on confederate symbolism will evaporate after this and not continue to build grow and work towards their goals. No my argument that pushing against confederate symbolism should be a secondary effect of efforts to combat institutionalized racism and hate groups and not a satisfactory end result. I think for a lot of people around here, they are getting off on southern schadenfreude and think that making racists sad is real social progress.
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Jun 24, 2015 15:39
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zoux posted:I can look at national news coverage today and see nothing about the shooting but tons of stuff about the confederate flag. I mean is your argument that "Hey, you don't know if the national news media will suddenly shift the narrative that has already developed and replaced the original story less than a week after the event"? Because that's a pretty weak loving argument. News organizations: well known for avoiding new stories. zoux posted:No my argument that pushing against confederate symbolism should be a secondary effect of efforts to combat institutionalized racism and hate groups and not a satisfactory end result. berzerker fucked around with this message at 15:43 on Jun 24, 2015 |
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Jun 24, 2015 15:40
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Then what the gently caress are we arguing about? Do people disagree that while the Confederate flag being removed from public grounds and retailers is good, if that were the only tangible result of expending whatever limited wherewithal to discuss controversial subjects and enact positive change that we gain after such tragedies, then that would be bad?
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Jun 24, 2015 15:47
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zoux posted:I think for a lot of people around here, they are getting off on southern schadenfreude and think that making racists sad is real social progress. Yup - identity politics is all about mirroring. It's the same logic as conservative positions that only exist to 'make liberals mad'. You need a wider ideological objective when attacking symbols - otherwise you are just one part of the mob being turned against the other. berzerker posted:News organizations: well known for avoiding new stories. What are TTIP and TISA?
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Jun 24, 2015 15:47
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Grundulum posted:There are a lot of Southerners who are heavily emotionally invested in the stars-and-bars. They either welcome the association with slavery, refuse to see it, or think that they can somehow "reclaim" the flag from people like Jefferson Davis, David Duke, and Dylann Roof. The attempt to scour it from polite society is being taken as a personal attack on who they are, which is being met with the expected emotionally-charged defenses. I could use help with this question too. An otherwise compassionate, dear friend of mine, is proud to own a confederate flag, because of her southern heritage. I asked her if she would keep a Nazi flag if she were German, and then she stopped talking to me.
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Jun 24, 2015 15:50
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berzerker posted:News organizations: well known for avoiding new stories. They're certainly well known for maintaining the status quo. Harping on about flags is a lot less disruptive to the status quo than in-depth analyses of modern institutionalized racism.
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Jun 24, 2015 15:51
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This was our best opportunity to discuss how hateful rhetoric and speech lead to violent outcomes and instead of tackling issues of racism we are all arguing about a loving flag.
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Jun 24, 2015 15:53
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zoux posted:Then what the gently caress are we arguing about? Do people disagree that while the Confederate flag being removed from public grounds and retailers is good, if that were the only tangible result of expending whatever limited wherewithal to discuss controversial subjects and enact positive change that we gain after such tragedies, then that would be bad? Most of the groups involved with the taking down of the flag were also spearheading other movements( black lives matter etc),not surprisingly they've been trying to get the flag removed for decades and they can you know multi task on this issue because of that. McDowell posted:Yup - identity politics is all about mirroring. It's the same logic as conservative positions that only exist to 'make liberals mad'. You need a wider ideological objective when attacking symbols - otherwise you are just one part of the mob being turned against the other. They weren't talking about that poo poo before this and don't even pretend like they were going to talk about it unless absolutely forced to. Taerkar posted:Trade deals don't get ratings. SirKibbles fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Jun 24, 2015 |
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Jun 24, 2015 15:54
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errad posted:I could use help with this question too. An otherwise compassionate, dear friend of mine, is proud to own a confederate flag, because of her southern heritage. I asked her if she would keep a Nazi flag if she were German, and then she stopped talking to me. Let her read a copy of the Confederate constitution, specifically this tidbit: "Racist White Men" posted:No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed. http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_csa.asp Otherwise it looks like some room on your speed dial opened up.
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Jun 24, 2015 15:54
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McDowell posted:Yup - identity politics is all about mirroring. It's the same logic as conservative positions that only exist to 'make liberals mad'. You need a wider ideological objective when attacking symbols - otherwise you are just one part of the mob being turned against the other. Trade deals don't get ratings.
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Jun 24, 2015 15:55
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berzerker posted:As opposed to what? The guy shoots people in a church so we overthrow the fetters of capitalism and rework society overnight into a glorious new era? I dunno, a more meaningful push for actual, real gun control would matter a whole lot more than lowering a piece of cloth from a flagpole, even if what that piece of cloth stands for is completely reprehensible. Removing the flag is certainly a good thing, but I can't shake this feeling that it's a waste of valuable political clout that could have been better spent on making another big push for tougher gun laws.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:03
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Taerkar posted:Trade deals don't get ratings. Is that why Episode I sucked?
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Jun 24, 2015 16:04
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Drone posted:I dunno, a more meaningful push for actual, real gun control would matter a whole lot more than lowering a piece of cloth from a flagpole, even if what that piece of cloth stands for is completely reprehensible. So another push for something that will never happen instead of something that will.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:06
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berzerker posted:So another push for something that will never happen instead of something that will. Not with an attitude like that it won't 
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Jun 24, 2015 16:10
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berzerker posted:So another push for something that will never happen instead of something that will. My contention is that removing the Confederate battle flag isn't actually "something".
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Jun 24, 2015 16:10
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errad posted:I could use help with this question too. An otherwise compassionate, dear friend of mine, is proud to own a confederate flag, because of her southern heritage. I asked her if she would keep a Nazi flag if she were German, and then she stopped talking to me. As it turns out, the only people who don't mind being compared to the Nazis are actual Nazis. Gravel Gravy posted:Otherwise it looks like some room on your speed dial opened up. Not very constructive. Social ostracization doesn't work as well in the internet era; if your friends start to cut you out of their lives because of your opinions, well, you can just go online and find plenty of people who do agree with you. The lack of opposing voices in the echo chamber just further entrenches the beliefs that led to the original isolation.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:12
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Full Communism sprang forth from the forehead of Karl Marx fully formed.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:12
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Grundulum posted:Not very constructive. Social ostracization doesn't work as well in the internet era; if your friends start to cut you out of their lives because of your opinions, well, you can just go online and find plenty of people who do agree with you. The lack of opposing voices in the echo chamber just further entrenches the beliefs that led to the original isolation. Guess it depends on your tolerance threshold I guess. I'm from SC and always considered the thing an embarrassment.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:16
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zoux posted:My contention is that removing the Confederate battle flag isn't actually "something". But it is something. Have you spent much time in SC? Here in Austin or Texas in general every once in a while you see someone with that flag on their car but in South Carolina the drat thing is EVERYWHERE. It isn't quite to the point of how Texans put the Lone Star on everything but it is really, really close in some areas. In SC you get desensitized to it. Driving to high school I'd see it dozens of times, and on my way to college or back there were no less than four houses that had it on a flagpole out front. You start to think "Can it really be that bad if it is on the Statehouse grounds, on various storefronts, flying in people's front yards, for sale in every gas station, and there is an entire display of merch with it last time I went into Walmart?" I think making it much more taboo to flaunt the thing is a huge step in the right direction. I expect it will have the effect of making racism stand out more and run the risk of social disdain while before people would just write it off as background noise. I think it will be a step enabling future discussion of the subject because racists won't be able to hide as easily behind "oh it is heritage!" like they do now and they lose a very prominent symbol which they think means people agree with them.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:17
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I don't think that anyone who is flying the Confederate flag in their yard is going to stop. I think a lot of people who didn't fly the flag in their yard are going to start as a gently caress you to "liberals". My point is that this is a highly symbolic and comparatively simple issue. I think we all recognize that there is a will to do change in the wake of these shootings and that will is limited and depletable, and it feels like we are spending a lot of it on an issue that isn't going to result in any tangible positive outcome for black people in SC and more broadly in the South.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:19
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So the Citadel is removing the Confederate navy jack from their chapel, and the governor of Alabama just ordered the battle flag removed from their statehouse grounds. I'm honestly shocked that this is happening so fast and in so many venues. Which begs the question, are they taking the flag down because they are genuinely ashamed of what it represents, or because it's now associated with a mop-topped mass murderer and taking it down is the easy and politically expedient thing to do?
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Jun 24, 2015 16:23
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Drone posted:I dunno, a more meaningful push for actual, real gun control would matter a whole lot more than lowering a piece of cloth from a flagpole, even if what that piece of cloth stands for is completely reprehensible. I hate guns and would ban them if I could, but gun control legislation in the US hasn't done poo poo to control guns and it would basically be poking the beast directly in both eyes.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:24
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Rhesus Pieces posted:So the Citadel is removing the Confederate navy jack from their chapel, and the governor of Alabama just ordered the battle flag removed from their statehouse grounds. I'm honestly shocked that this is happening so fast and in so many venues. Well, the latter obviously.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:26
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