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yall realize the water was not just standing there and was instead being replaced often/constantly due to those big rear end aqueducts right?
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Jun 25, 2015 14:09
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WoodrowSkillson posted:yall realize the water was not just standing there and was instead being replaced often/constantly due to those big rear end aqueducts right? Mary Beard makes a point in one of her documentary shows: they got more hot water in, but it wasn't piped out. So Roman baths were some grimy-rear end communal pools.
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Jun 25, 2015 15:03
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WoodrowSkillson posted:yall realize the water was not just standing there and was instead being replaced often/constantly due to those big rear end aqueducts right?
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Jun 25, 2015 15:13
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I didn't find the correct sizes of the pools, but 1m³ water weights 1 ton. Maybe somebody else finds better sizes than the ones given in the wiki entry of the baths of Caracalla, but these look loving large. I pity the slaves who had to pump out the water or do that with buckets. Enjoy your warm poopwater!
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Jun 25, 2015 15:52
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well seems that i am wrong, though i have to wonder if there is a mechanism we are missing here, even as simple as tons of slaves somehow replacing the water. i really don't see well to do romans soaking themselves in gross rear end water
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Jun 25, 2015 16:22
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WoodrowSkillson posted:i really don't see well to do romans soaking themselves in gross rear end water
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Jun 25, 2015 16:57
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wrong twice in one morning, im on a roll
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Jun 25, 2015 17:02
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A pool in a Pompeii bathhouse: Indeed there doesn't seem to be any opening for draining the pool, which seems strange: with all their aqueducts and piping, did it never occur to anyone to install pipes to carry away dirty water?
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Jun 25, 2015 17:10
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Silent Linguist posted:Ooh! I watched her recreation of the Vestal hairdo and it's pretty amazing. This is great. Thanks.
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Jun 25, 2015 18:08
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Kopijeger posted:A pool in a Pompeii bathhouse: Pfffft who needs pipes when you got slaves with buckets?
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Jun 25, 2015 18:08
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Sulla-Marius 88 posted:http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324900204578286272195339456 Yeah, those ancient historians were so closed off and  that they published that paper in a major scholarly journal and universally praised the author for doing something really cool, what a bunch of pathetic sexless dorks 
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Jun 25, 2015 18:14
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Yeah, those ancient historians were so closed off and They also evidently have terrible senses of humour and a pilum so far up they assbutt it may as well be an overbite
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Jun 25, 2015 19:53
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After the fall of the western empire, what happened to the remaining Roman soldiers? Did they join up with the new kingdoms, or did any of them migrate to the eastern empire?
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Jun 25, 2015 22:22
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By that point there were essentially no professional soldiers left in the sense that you're probably thinking of.
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Jun 25, 2015 22:33
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Wasn't there that Syagrius guy? Didn't he have a Roman army under him in Gaul after the western empire fell?
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Jun 25, 2015 22:42
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goose fleet posted:After the fall of the western empire, what happened to the remaining Roman soldiers? Did they join up with the new kingdoms, or did any of them migrate to the eastern empire? As I understand, those soldiers were all some variety of barbarian.
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Jun 25, 2015 22:44
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goose fleet posted:Wasn't there that Syagrius guy? Didn't he have a Roman army under him in Gaul after the western empire fell? We know practically nothing about the composition of Syagruis' forces, or even the extent of his authority and territory, but they were probably just hired warbands instead of anything resembling the legions.
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Jun 25, 2015 22:48
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goose fleet posted:Wasn't there that Syagrius guy? Didn't he have a Roman army under him in Gaul after the western empire fell? His Roman army would have been Gauls from the area he governed, probably indistinguishable from the Frankish army that eventually conquered his rump state. It would not have been the classic legion that people imagine when they think of the Roman military.
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Jun 25, 2015 22:49
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:As I understand, those soldiers were all some variety of barbarian. Barbarian is a word you have to define pretty specifically before using it. The political situation in the 5th century is pretty fluid, and these guys had many Roman characteristics, alongside their non-Roman identities.
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Jun 25, 2015 23:57
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Also it's not like it just ended overnight and everybody got fired like a Best Buy shutting down.
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Jun 26, 2015 00:41
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Grand Fromage posted:Also it's not like it just ended overnight and everybody got fired like a Best Buy shutting down. People literally think that a Rome with vast armies of stocky, Italian-looking, legionaries in lorica segmentata overseen by senators in togas ended one day and was immediately replaced by filthy, bearded, and mustachioed barbarians squatting in smoky ruins gnawing on roasted boar's legs. That is a thing people in this world believe, I poo poo you not.
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Jun 26, 2015 03:33
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cheerfullydrab posted:People literally think that a Rome with vast armies of stocky, Italian-looking, legionaries in lorica segmentata overseen by senators in togas ended one day and was immediately replaced by filthy, bearded, and mustachioed barbarians squatting in smoky ruins gnawing on roasted boar's legs. That is a thing people in this world believe, I poo poo you not. except the legionaries look british
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Jun 26, 2015 03:42
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goose fleet posted:After the fall of the western empire, what happened to the remaining Roman soldiers? Did they join up with the new kingdoms, or did any of them migrate to the eastern empire? There were a lot of European leaders who nominally were subservient to the Roman Emperor even though he didn't really provide them any support or interact with them at all. After 476 a lot of those leaders just kept on going like nothing had changed, because pretty much nothing had changed.
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Jun 26, 2015 05:05
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Arglebargle III posted:There were a lot of European leaders who nominally were subservient to the Roman Emperor even though he didn't really provide them any support or interact with them at all. After 476 a lot of those leaders just kept on going like nothing had changed, because pretty much nothing had changed. It was only the western part that went, the eastern part of the Empire was still around.
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Jun 26, 2015 05:10
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:As I understand, those soldiers were all some variety of barbarian. Not only that, but many of the leaders of the Western Roman Empire near the end were also barbarians. You know, the guys fighting to stop the hordes and forestall the inevitable fall of Empire? Yeah, mostly German. Guys like Aetius or Stilicho. It was a weird time.
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Jun 26, 2015 06:54
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Here's how "barbarians" conquered the Western Empire. Many came to the Empire either because they were naturally seeking their fortune or because they had been invited in. They were given land in return for military service. Eventually they slowly became a big part of Roman life, serving in the armies of the state, administering the state, and everything else. Now, by this time, a huge amount of land had just sort of naturally came to be owned by the imperial government over the years as people's possessions were seized for nonpayment of taxes, various revolts, etc. etc. When local leaders, who were mostly "barbarians", took over the direct administration of provinces, still claiming to be part of the Empire, just sort of taking care of them for Rome for a little while, they usually took over this huge amount of land and settled more of their folk on it. There seriously was probably never an invasion of land in most places, as people assume a barbarian conquest entails. As in, a band of tribal warriors camps out in your field, you wake up, they say it's theirs now. It was all done nice and legal. Or you can just put a big map of Western Europe on the wall and draw some lines on it coming over the Rhine and Danube and write "3rd-6th CENTURY" on the top. Either one.
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Jun 26, 2015 08:04
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The problem with this is that barbarian conquest sounds far more exciting than barbarian foreclosure.
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Jun 26, 2015 08:42
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Hordes of screaming Germans poured over the border to register at the local real estate office and sign competitive leases on agricultural land that lacked sufficient labor to be worked efficiently. "Forward, men!" screamed Athanaric, looking back over his exhausted compatriots, "If we aren't fast enough we will never get a good equity rate and may be forced to take hill plots with north facings!"
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Jun 26, 2015 08:47
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Well barbarian raids are quite dramatic, with the looting and the burning and the carrying off of crying captives into the woods, and the battles and such, but the part where they find themselves places to build nice houses and obtain legal title to a piece of land and also put themselves at the top of an sophisticated, oppressive, agricultural society created by a centuries-long entanglement between the imperial administration and wealthy landowners is a little less so, yes.
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Jun 26, 2015 09:02
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Grand Fromage posted:Hordes of screaming Germans poured over the border to register at the local real estate office and sign competitive leases on agricultural land that lacked sufficient labor to be worked efficiently. lmbo Actually now that you mention it, how did the Eastern Roman Empire resolve the problem of Land Reform? I know it's been talked about here time and time again, but was crisis that Gracchians tried to solve ever actually resolved conclusively at any point?
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Jun 26, 2015 09:17
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To my knowledge nobody actually managed to do anything about it so they probably just kept growing and consolidating in fewer hands (particularly under the Emperor's control where you could proscribe and seize land from rich aristocrats in times of debt) until the Empire started to lose control of its provinces and then even its own lands in Italy. However - I'm 100% not an Empire guy so there's that caveat.
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Jun 26, 2015 09:23
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Waci posted:The problem with this is that barbarian conquest sounds far more exciting than barbarian foreclosure. germans leveraging financial instruments to bolster their political position in a pan-european construct? hmmmm
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Jun 26, 2015 09:56
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Friendly Tumour posted:lmbo Themes. Not that it was a perfect solution, because wealthy landowners hated the theme system, and tried to undermine it whenever they could, but it worked well enough. Basically peasants got a portion of land or "theme" in exchange for military service owed to the local strategos or military commander of the district, and the land grant was not transferable, so that it couldn't be scooped up by the local landowners, who were usually civilians.
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Jun 26, 2015 10:20
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Hogge Wild posted:except the legionaries look british Grand Fromage posted:Hordes of screaming Germans poured over the border to register at the local real estate office and sign competitive leases on agricultural land that lacked sufficient labor to be worked efficiently. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 10:35 on Jun 26, 2015 |
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Jun 26, 2015 10:33
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cheerfullydrab posted:People literally think that a Rome with vast armies of stocky, Italian-looking, legionaries in lorica segmentata overseen by senators in togas ended one day and was immediately replaced by filthy, bearded, and mustachioed barbarians squatting in smoky ruins gnawing on roasted boar's legs. That is a thing people in this world believe, I poo poo you not. Britain was pretty hosed after the Romans left though. People left the major cities and even simple things like pottery went to poo poo. People actually reused funeral urns.
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Jun 26, 2015 10:56
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Friendly Tumour posted:lmbo The land problem of the Gracchi's time was resolved by wars of conquest.
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Jun 26, 2015 12:32
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Alhazred posted:Britain was pretty hosed after the Romans left though. People left the major cities and even simple things like pottery went to poo poo. People actually reused funeral urns. Britain's situation was exceptionally bad. As in, it was mostly an exception. As I said, barbarian raids were very destructive. Roman Britain was raided for many years, not only from Germanic peoples but also from Ireland and the areas to its north. However, city abandonment was probably due to larger economic factors, not wholesale conquest by foreign tribes. DNA analysis has proved that when the Saxons settled down, they intermingled and coexisted peacefully with the existing population.
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Jun 26, 2015 16:51
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cheerfullydrab posted:DNA analysis has proved that when the Saxons settled down, they intermingled and coexisted peacefully with the existing population. How can DNA evidence prove peaceful co-existence?
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Jun 26, 2015 16:54
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Disinterested posted:How can DNA evidence prove peaceful co-existence? I was going to ask that as well but just assumed he was going off other evidence as well, like a contemporaneous shift in archaeologically-identifiable cultures in the same communities (e.g. burial practice, cooking implements, iron refinement etc). I mean, the DNA doesn't change based on the manner of conception Sulla Faex fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Jun 26, 2015 |
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Jun 26, 2015 16:58
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sullat posted:Themes. Not that it was a perfect solution, because wealthy landowners hated the theme system, and tried to undermine it whenever they could, but it worked well enough. Basically peasants got a portion of land or "theme" in exchange for military service owed to the local strategos or military commander of the district, and the land grant was not transferable, so that it couldn't be scooped up by the local landowners, who were usually civilians. Huh. One would assume such a system would degenerate into feudalism almost instantly. Isn't that what happened elsewhere in the West?
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Jun 26, 2015 16:59
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