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RyokoTK posted:I always thought Doom was considered to be pretty violent for 1993 games. I mean, maybe not to the fidelity that we're talking about now, but definitely it was not a clean game. ive noticed people recently on the internet trying to act like doom wasn't violent for its time. usually also while arguing against brutal doom.
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Jun 25, 2015 22:54
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Terra Nova just reminds me of G-NOME, which was a poor man's Mechwarrior. I'm not entirely sure why, something about the graphics I guess.
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Jun 25, 2015 22:56
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Zaphod42 posted:Nah that's definitely true, my parents wouldn't let me play. But I think it was more about shooting guns at people than just straight gore. Wolfenstein 3D was unambiguously earlier by more than a year and quite popular in its own right
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Jun 25, 2015 23:10
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Nintendo Kid posted:Wolfenstein 3D was unambiguously earlier by more than a year and quite popular in its own right Yeah and then Catacomb 3-D was a year before that and then you had other things before that. I'm really really sorry for saying "first FPS", but it did create the term "FPS" out of "doom-clone". Nobody was saying "that's a nice wolfenstein-clone"  Most people's parents don't know what Wolf3D is, but just about everybody knows of Doom.
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Jun 25, 2015 23:13
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Doom was absolutely about metal and violence and there's a reason Romero has said he likes Brutal Doom. Sometimes the creators don't realize why their creations are great. It's not still being played because of the violence.
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Jun 25, 2015 23:15
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Doom was criticized for its violence in 1993 but it certainly wasn't the red pixels on the screen that kept people playing it for the next twenty+ years.
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Jun 25, 2015 23:16
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Roobanguy posted:ive noticed people recently on the internet trying to act like doom wasn't violent for its time. usually also while arguing against brutal doom. I've been a Doom fan and player for 19 years, the Doom 4 gore doesn't appeal to me, but you're absolutely right. I think that Robotron blog post is responsible: people sometimes talk about the game now in terms of its elegance and emphasis on spatial coordination as if it were not also a game of chainsaws and writhing impaled dudes in Hell. Those aren't at all the terms 90s id would've used to describe their work. Which is fine -- the game really is elegant, and it can be violent and elegant at the same time -- so why whitewash it?
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Jun 25, 2015 23:21
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Doom is still a great game if you strip away the violence entirely though, which can be readily proven by the existence of Chex Quest. What would be left of Doom 4 if you stripped away the violence?
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Jun 25, 2015 23:24
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That's a fair point. We'll have to see I guess.
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Jun 25, 2015 23:26
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Let us not forget the numerous ways the media tried to blame Doom for the Columbine shootings, since Eric Harris was an avid player who made his own mods.
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Jun 25, 2015 23:26
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Chinese Tony Danza posted:Let us not forget the numerous ways the media tried to blame Doom for the Columbine shootings, since Eric Harris was an avid player who made his own mods. A notable feature is that all of his mods include enhanced gore, and he advertised "realdoom" that was only offered from direct email.
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Jun 25, 2015 23:39
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I think that if you asked ten people what made Doom so great, you'd get ten different answers. There would definitely be overlap, but they would be different in their own ways. So when a dude says that what made Doom great is explody violence, big guns, and fast movement, I can't exactly say that's a wrong or facile summation because those parts of Doom are pretty loving cool.
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Jun 25, 2015 23:55
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Jordan7hm posted:Doom was absolutely about metal and violence and there's a reason Romero has said he likes Brutal Doom. I don't play Brutal Doom because of the splatter. I play it because, gore or no, it's a masterpiece in reactivity in an FPS. Every single shot has a weight and reaction to it. An enemy leaps at you and you nail them with a hurried shotgun blast. They fly back ten feet and roll dramatically down a flight of stairs. Another enemy gets put down with a wild reaction shot, with the spare pellets removing a leg from a zombie in the distance, which slumps over and pulls out a pistol to plink away at you with. Another game with great reactivity in its combat damage is Binary Domain. You're fighting chromed and iPod-white robots, so there's no blood or gore or screaming, but every bullets tears off a bit of armor or a limb or just causes part of your target to shake. There is joy to be found in just tearing things apart and leaving the area strewn with mess. Doesn't matter whether it's pristine robot parts or demon guts. It's fun to break things, and when things can be broken in dozens or hundreds of subtly different ways, it's compelling in its own right.
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Jun 26, 2015 00:01
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Bobinator posted:It's pretty rare to have a retro FPS that does boss fights particularly well, I'd say. Even the Cyberdemon isn't all that different from, say, the imp, he just has a lot more health and does a lot more damage. Bosses that aren't just basically a single enemy with insane health and damage output that are pretty tough to find around the Doom era, which, given the reasons other people above mentioned, is pretty understandable. The only way to really do a boss well in an FPS of any era is to make a boss level instead of a boss monster. Blast Pit in Half-Life is an example - the entire level revolves around this giant tentacle monster, but you don't really spend any time at all fighting it directly.
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Jun 26, 2015 00:07
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Keiya posted:The only way to really do a boss well in an FPS of any era is to make a boss level instead of a boss monster. Blast Pit in Half-Life is an example - the entire level revolves around this giant tentacle monster, but you don't really spend any time at all fighting it directly. This is actually overwhelmingly true. Its possible I think to make an interesting boss monster, but focusing on the idea of a boss level generally works so much better. Its not just FPS either. Look at something like World of Warcraft; the bosses that are just a dude with some mechanics are generally bland, some are okay. But the ones where you have to utilize their environment, interact with something else, etc. are the ones that really stick out in your mind and seem really original. The old raids were all just tank and spank with one or two abilities to look out for. The modern raids are all really intricate arenas where you have to press buttons, dodge things falling, split up your team and perform parallel tasks, etc. etc. And that carries over to FPSRPGs like Destiny; the strike bosses are all just dudes who stand there and soak tons of bullets while shooting back at you. They go from lame to frustrating. But the raid bosses are really unique and intricate and fun; and they each have a unique arena and you have to do something with the level, not just the boss. Vault of Glass' final raid boss involves players having to capture two points on different sides of the arena in order to hold open time portals because the boss sends random players back in time to another zone, and the portals being open is the only way to get back. In addition they have to pick up a relic from the past to carry through the portal to allow you to fight the boss. Its really awesome. And even other game genres still, think about Demon's Souls or Dark Souls. Some of the one on one you versus a boss fights can be REALLY good if done right ( Sir Alonne, Fume Knight, etc.) but can also be pretty lackluster (Gwyn) and repetitive. People complain about too many humanoid bosses in DS games, because a humanoid boss is usually always a "boss boss", while the non-humanoid ones are usually more of the "boss level" variety. Then again Bed of Chaos was of the "boss level" variety and sucked haaaard.
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Jun 26, 2015 00:18
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I dunno. Theoretically, there's not too much stopping an FPS developer from coming up with a boss akin to the sort you always see in, say, platformers, where you have to exploit a specific pattern or hit a particular weakspot, which doesn't always necessitate designing the weakness into the level geometry itself. It's just coming up with good bosses that way isn't exactly easy...
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Jun 26, 2015 00:22
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Zaphod42 posted:: Yeah but that's after 20 goddamn years. Christ.
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Jun 26, 2015 00:26
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My dad still remembers Wolfenstein 3D, though he refers to it as "Froinlavin" because that's what a young me thought the SS said when they died.
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Jun 26, 2015 00:32
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When I was a kid I would refer to the gibbed enemy sprite in Doom as "red salad" which an older relative gleefully brings up every time there's a family gathering.
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Jun 26, 2015 00:33
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It's pretty funny that people got so pissed over the gore in Doom 1, when in retrospect, it's pretty lighthearted. It seems more like a gory version of something you'd see in Looney Tunes than the gore you'd see in a serious horror film. Old iD did a great job with making the gore funny instead of stupid grimdark crap.
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Jun 26, 2015 02:28
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closeted republican posted:It's pretty funny that people got so pissed over the gore in Doom 1, when in retrospect, it's pretty lighthearted. It seems more like a gory version of something you'd see in Looney Tunes than the gore you'd see in a serious horror film. Haha is this a parody post
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Jun 26, 2015 02:34
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The goriest parts of Doom were without a doubt some of the textures and decorations in the map - The violence you inflict on enemies seems pretty tame compared to the twitching zombieman on a stick or bloody shackled torso on the wall. But I feel like these were added to sell you on this being Hell or near Hell, depending on the area. Without those, the levels would be even more abstract and surreal than they already are - Which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, but they wanted to create an atmosphere and the props that look like they were ripped from an issue of Heavy Metal did the job well enough.
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Jun 26, 2015 02:34
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PINING 4 PORKINS posted:Haha is this a parody post The actual gory enemy deaths, like gibbing enemies, are silly and cartoony. The Chaingunner cleanly splits in half like he's a tomato being cut apart and cannon fodder enemies turn into red mush with the sound of a fruit being squished.
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Jun 26, 2015 02:40
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Jordan7hm posted:Doom was absolutely about metal and violence and there's a reason Romero has said he likes Brutal Doom. It's funny, because they're the same guys who realized that the Doom monsters were lacking in challenge and made things like the Mancubus, Arach, Arch-vile, PE, all of which turned the game from "run fast and never get hit" into something that could be legitimately complex and involved with good map design. Without that, I don't know if the Doom mapping community is anywhere near what it is today.
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Jun 26, 2015 02:40
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closeted republican posted:The actual gory enemy deaths, like gibbing enemies, are silly and cartoony. The Chaingunner cleanly splits in half like he's a tomato being cut apart and cannon fodder enemies turn into red mush with the sound of a fruit being squished. Yeah some of it looks silly now but at the time it was fully "grimdark" and much of it still is, like what the other guy was talking about with the impaled torsos and stuff. What they're doing in the new Doom is completely in line with the original game, it's just not in line with how the 2015 Doom modding community looks at it.
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Jun 26, 2015 02:44
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Alain Post posted:It's funny, because they're the same guys who realized that the Doom monsters were lacking in challenge and made things like the Mancubus, Arach, Arch-vile, PE, all of which turned the game from "run fast and never get hit" into something that could be legitimately complex and involved with good map design. Without that, I don't know if the Doom mapping community is anywhere near what it is today. Old iD is one of the few developers that had the ability to make fun and deep games out of crap thrown together at the last minute.
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Jun 26, 2015 02:44
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Alain Post posted:It's funny, because they're the same guys who realized that the Doom monsters were lacking in challenge and made things like the Mancubus, Arach, Arch-vile, PE, all of which turned the game from "run fast and never get hit" into something that could be legitimately complex and involved with good map design. Without that, I don't know if the Doom mapping community is anywhere near what it is today. I'm willing to bet that Doom 4 won't have the Arch-Vile, which is a drat shame.
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Jun 26, 2015 02:51
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Geight posted:I'm willing to bet that Doom 4 won't have the Arch-Vile, which is a drat shame. I'll take that bet.
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Jun 26, 2015 02:53
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Did the Doom 3 archie have the LOS attack? I honestly don't remember.
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Jun 26, 2015 02:55
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Did 3 have them? I'll be honest, I've never been able to play through 3 all the way through. I planned to when I bought the BFG edition on sale, but then I heard the BFG edition kind of messes up the gameplay by giving you the always-on flashlight and making you move fast and throwing ammo around everywhere in a lame attempt to make Doom 3 into something it isn't.
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Jun 26, 2015 02:56
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PINING 4 PORKINS posted:Yeah some of it looks silly now but at the time it was fully "grimdark" and much of it still is, like what the other guy was talking about with the impaled torsos and stuff. What they're doing in the new Doom is completely in line with the original game, it's just not in line with how the 2015 Doom modding community looks at it. Granted, this is during Quake 1's development, but Romero knew that gibbing and gore was funny if done right. https://www.quaddicted.com/interviews/americanmcgee quote:
Looking at Doom, you can see the same thing. The silly death animations, from Imps turning into red mush to Cacodemons deflating like a balloon, are a contrast to the corpses, impaled torsos, and grimdark stuff you see in the game. EDIT: Forgot source.
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Jun 26, 2015 02:57
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Geight posted:Did 3 have them? I'll be honest, I've never been able to play through 3 all the way through. I planned to when I bought the BFG edition on sale, but then I heard the BFG edition kind of messes up the gameplay by giving you the always-on flashlight and making you move fast and throwing ammo around everywhere in a lame attempt to make Doom 3 into something it isn't. Yeah. Because of the corpse system they don't revive enemies, but they do summon them. I don't really remember their attack, but I'm pretty sure it's not as vicious as their attack in 2.
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Jun 26, 2015 02:59
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e) beat. but yeah. The LOS is really the reason archies are so scary, it'd be a shame if they got rid of that.
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Jun 26, 2015 02:59
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Alain Post posted:Did the Doom 3 archie have the LOS attack? I honestly don't remember.
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Jun 26, 2015 03:03
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See but resurrecting enemies would actually give them a chance to do something actually interesting with their gore system! Imagine seeing the parts of the demon you just gibbed fly in reverse and sew themselves back together before throwing another fireball at you. That would be cool as gently caress, right? Of course, this would require an actual gore system ala Killing Floor 2, and not just a bunch of mortal kombat-esque animations, but they could still do something with it. Also yeah the LoS attack -combined- with the resurrection is what makes the arch-vile such a cool enemy. Two unique abilities that are both potentially catastrophic if left unchecked.
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Jun 26, 2015 03:05
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Geight posted:See but resurrecting enemies would actually give them a chance to do something actually interesting with their gore system! Imagine seeing the parts of the demon you just gibbed fly in reverse and sew themselves back together before throwing another fireball at you. That would be cool as gently caress, right? Of course, this would require an actual gore system ala Killing Floor 2, and not just a bunch of mortal kombat-esque animations, but they could still do something with it.
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Jun 26, 2015 03:08
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Geight posted:See but resurrecting enemies would actually give them a chance to do something actually interesting with their gore system! Imagine seeing the parts of the demon you just gibbed fly in reverse and sew themselves back together before throwing another fireball at you. That would be cool as gently caress, right? Of course, this would require an actual gore system ala Killing Floor 2, and not just a bunch of mortal kombat-esque animations, but they could still do something with it. Well, since the death animations are canned, they could make some canned resurrection animations that correspond to each death animation, so that actually seems relatively straightforward to me.
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Jun 26, 2015 03:11
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Shadow Hog posted:Not necessarily; having a finite number of death states actually strikes me as easier to program in revival animations for, because that means you have a finite number of starting states to work with instead of infinite indeterminate starting points. Well either way, here's hoping someone on the Doom 4 team discovers the ambition to put something new and/or interesting into their game.
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Jun 26, 2015 03:12
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I think I've done everything I can with vanilla Quake's campaign, are the expansions worth playing?
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Jun 26, 2015 03:18
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khwarezm posted:I think I've done everything I can with vanilla Quake's campaign, are the expansions worth playing? Expansion 1: Hell yes. Expansion 2: Sure if you don't mind mediocre map design.
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Jun 26, 2015 03:20
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