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Effectronica posted:It's empowering if you find it empowering, so it's not empowering at all because you made it up to make a dumbass remark. Because the sorts of things people claim Bayonetta supports are things that are a matter of people's choices and decisions, which SR4 supports in a way that Bayonetta does not. If I tell you that Bayonetta was designed by a woman (Mari Shimazaki, lead character designer on 1 and 2), does that change how you feel about her design?
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Jun 26, 2015 17:27
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I said come in! posted:You said no fictional characters have agency, you said no diversity can exist among fictional characters because they are made by the artist. You can't say your argument applies to male characters and then decide to have it not apply to female characters as well. Again, you're not understanding the argument. First of all, nobody said diversity can't exist among fictional characters. Fictional characters can't have agency, they can portray agency. The male characters in games are much, much more varied, in attractiveness, character, and otherwise, than female characters. A lot of the time this is partially just a side effect of having far fewer female characters than male characters, but it still holds true across games as a whole. In addition, the male characters tend not to portray a female sexual fantasy, but a male fantasy of what the ideal male looks and acts like. These aren't groundbreaking revelations, nor are they incredibly important--they are mostly symptomatic, slightly causal. It's a very silly thing to protest against since it's very self-evidently true. Okay I think I'm out of energy for gamergate. It's not that complex a topic: Our society is way sexist Gaming, which is still very male dominated in terms of both the creative teams and the consumers, especially the vocal ones, is way sexist. There are games that have some sexist elements and some feminist elements since life is complicated.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:27
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Effectronica posted:
Err you're technically correct there were some.. but those populations existed, in what few numbers they did, largely in the Italian City States (mainly Venice, and Naples), France, the Iberian Peninsula, and some penetration into the Holy Roman Empire but it really depended on the state and even then we are talking about like a very small group of people (like in the realm of 20-100 in any single state, almost certainly merchants) You'd have a much better case for Gypsies and the Jews who were both ethnic minorities existing in Europe during the time whom had very large minority communities who existed in the time, are usually not represented, and experienced tons of oppression, pogroms, and racism in Europe till this day. Like for someone who talks about ignorance, you sure have a very "American-Centric" idea of what racism is as opposed to what it was in Europe's context. Effectronica posted:Also, calling the Turkish-made video game "Mount and Blade" "making poo poo up about history to make us feel better" because it has black NPCs in its thinly-veiled fantasy medieval Europe is grotesque. Yes, saying that "making poo poo up about history to make us feel better" equals thinking that having any black character in medieval Europe fantasy is grotesque. Okay...
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Jun 26, 2015 17:28
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"Have you ever heard of Anita Sarkeesian?" Normal Person: "Uh, wasn't she on John Oliver that one time?" Internet Person: "Oh yeah she does those videos." Hellthread Person: *dumps stack of dossiers and twitter printouts on desk* "boy have i ever"
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Jun 26, 2015 17:28
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Nothing is true, and everything is triggered/triggering
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Jun 26, 2015 17:29
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Effectronica posted:You're supposed to meet effort with effort in this forum. Just saying words to the vague effect of "sexism exists independently of any person, because it's magic" is not enough. Nah, it was the perfect answer to the "if we destroy imagery that we declare sexist, sexism will be over" argument. No, it doesn't loving work that way because you don't diversify by destroying already existing elements, but by adding new, different ones.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:30
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This thread is so much worse than the other one ever was.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:31
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I'm sensing a lot of hostility in this thread. Is anyone else?
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Jun 26, 2015 17:31
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Obdicut posted:The male characters in games are much, much more varied, in attractiveness, character, and otherwise, than female characters. Maybe this is true (I'm going with it doesn't though), but this doesn't apply to Street Fighter. Obdicut posted:Our society is way sexist Actually the consumer demographic for video games now is 50% female. I said come in! fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Jun 26, 2015 |
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Jun 26, 2015 17:31
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:This thread is so much worse than the other one ever was.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:31
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Gamergate: the fastest trigger in the west
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Jun 26, 2015 17:32
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:This thread is so much worse than the other one ever was. Good to know that you are here to help improve it with your obsessive 1 votes.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:32
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Shadoer posted:Err you're technically correct there were some.. but those populations existed, in what few numbers they did, largely in the Italian City States (mainly Venice, and Naples), France, the Iberian Peninsula, and some penetration into the Holy Roman Empire but it really depended on the state and even then we are talking about like a very small group of people (like in the realm of 20-100 in any single state, almost certainly merchants) Are you ESL?
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Jun 26, 2015 17:32
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:This thread is so much worse than the other one ever was. agreed
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Jun 26, 2015 17:32
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Effectronica posted:Probably because sexism exists because we create it continuously, and eliminating it will mean stopping the creation of it, and because you have a huge persecution complex that only a little lead pill or fifty will cure. Well actually there's really little evidence we create it continuously. I mean sexism is largely a social construct, but every piece of evidence and stat says that in the Western World people are becoming less sexist and the gender gap has been narrowing over time. If say the popularity of television, movies, and video games was really promoting and enforcing sexism into Western Culture, there should have been some regression to more sexist attitudes that could be observed in statistics.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:33
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Behold, everyone The Lifecycle of a Gamergate Thread 1. Detached Interest and Ironic Enthusiasm ==> 2. Earnest Discussion ==> 3. Degeneration of Posting, Increase in Garbage (we are here) ==> 4. Anarchic Shithole ==> 5. Gas Chamber
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Jun 26, 2015 17:33
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Obdicut posted:
Therefore?
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Jun 26, 2015 17:35
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Dreylad posted:Are you ESL? I play a lot of Paradox games and I came from Europe. ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:This thread is so much worse than the other one ever was. Yeah. Having a general Hellthread with a focus on Gamergate was way more fun than a straight up gamergate thread.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:35
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I said come in! posted:Maybe this is true (I'm going with it doesn't though), but this doesn't apply to Street Fighter. It most certainly applies to Street Fighter, the game where every female character is sexualized. Even if you argue that all the male characters are sexualized too, and you can, it doesn't make it OK to design every single character in that manner.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:35
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Spinning Robo posted:If I tell you that Bayonetta was designed by a woman (Mari Shimazaki, lead character designer on 1 and 2), does that change how you feel about her design? I already knew that, because I enjoyed both games. It's not relevant to what I just said. Why there's nobody intelligent yet misguided who cares about this is a mystery for the ages. Shadoer posted:Err you're technically correct there were some.. but those populations existed, in what few numbers they did, largely in the Italian City States (mainly Venice, and Naples), France, the Iberian Peninsula, and some penetration into the Holy Roman Empire but it really depended on the state and even then we are talking about like a very small group of people (like in the realm of 20-100 in any single state, almost certainly merchants)  This is an image of Saint Mauritius, the patron saint of the city of Coburg in Bavaria, Germany. He has been the patron saint of Coburg since the middle ages. He was transformed from an Egyptian man to a black African man in depictions during that time, which happened because people were familiar with the features of black people, in Central Europe, in the Middle Ages, and so could depict them in artwork. Also, whenever a European starts talking about how their racism is so much different from the American kind, I reach for the safety-catch of my pistol. quote:Yes, saying that "making poo poo up about history to make us feel better" equals thinking that having any black character in medieval Europe fantasy is grotesque. You said that having black people in medieval Europe was "making poo poo up about history to make us feel better", so what does that say about games that feature Europe but with the geography and names changed that still include statistically impossible black people?
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Jun 26, 2015 17:35
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Neo-Hellthread is moving as fast as Hellthread did in its hey-day. Truly the second coming. Tbh I don't really give a gently caress about whether video games are sexist or not. I enjoy them regardless. I said come in! posted:Maybe this is true (I'm going with it doesn't though), but this doesn't apply to Street Fighter. He's right though. And I play a shitton of SF.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:36
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Effectronica posted:Also, calling the Turkish-made video game "Mount and Blade" "making poo poo up about history to make us feel better" because it has black NPCs in its thinly-veiled fantasy medieval Europe is grotesque. Mount and Blade is cool and good. It also covers a much larger area with more diverse racial makeup than one just set in Bohemia. Having few or no black people in a game set in medieval Bohemia is probably fine, but so is just pretending that everyone is "white". You'd need include the fact that the population for much of its history was a mix of Germanic and Slavic peoples who at times really didn't like each other. Then there should also be representation of the Jewish, Roma, Turkic, and Steppe populations present.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:36
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Sinnlos posted:It most certainly applies to Street Fighter, the game where every female character is sexualized. Even if you argue that all the male characters are sexualized too, and you can, it doesn't make it OK to design every single character in that manner. Are you really arguing this is a sexualized Street Fighter character? 
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Jun 26, 2015 17:37
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With all this hoo-haa over the sunset devs publicly making GBS threads themselves on twitter over their crappy game I wanted to know what it's like Thankfully BroTeam gives the perfect review of Sunset - make sure to watch the final second of the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZly6bW3UMk edit: but don't worry - the devs are plugging their patreons everywhere they can so I'm sure they'll be alright 
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Jun 26, 2015 17:37
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I said come in! posted:Are you really arguing this is a sexualized Street Fighter character? Considering her (training?) bra is visible in her idle stance and victory screen, yes she is sexualized.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:39
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Archer666 posted:Considering her push up is visible in her idle stance and victory screen, yes she is sexualized. lmao you can't be serious.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:39
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Bholder posted:Nah, it was the perfect answer to the "if we destroy imagery that we declare sexist, sexism will be over" argument. Agreed, we should never have outlawed marital rape. Also, sexism is totally subjective as a phenomenon. This, I declare, is the natural end result of the "service economy"- the inability of persons to believe in an outside reality anymore.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:39
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Jombo posted:With all this hoo-haa over the sunset devs publicly making GBS threads themselves on twitter over their crappy game I wanted to know what it's like  these guys are pretty cool
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Jun 26, 2015 17:39
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Archer666 posted:Neo-Hellthread is moving as fast as Hellthread did in its hey-day. Truly the second coming. Yea that's what I don't get. Like yes, there exist some sexists videogames, there also exists some non-sexists video game. Games of both types can be good, or not good. But what does any of this have to do with gamergate?
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Jun 26, 2015 17:40
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Lancelot posted:Here is my controversial opinion on Gamergate: Women are people and death threats against them are bad. pfh look at this bitchmade beta
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Jun 26, 2015 17:41
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Effectronica posted:Probably because sexism exists because we create it continuously, and eliminating it will mean stopping the creation of it, and because you have a huge persecution complex that only a little lead pill or fifty will cure.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:42
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Effectronica posted:Agreed, we should never have outlawed marital rape. Also, sexism is totally subjective as a phenomenon. Describe your ideal world where sexism is solved.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:42
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hey can one of you obsessive freakshows at least fill me in if that milo guy is still around trying to radicalize resentful shut-ins
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Jun 26, 2015 17:42
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Dreylad posted:
Those guys are like the extremely bitter ex you dumped who can't stop telling everyone it was actually she who dumped you instead.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:43
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paranoid randroid posted:hey can one of you obsessive freakshows at least fill me in if that milo guy is still around trying to radicalize resentful shut-ins Yeah, he's still going strong.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:43
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I said come in! posted:lmao you can't be serious. Look man, I love Makoto. I use her a lot. But she's still sexualized. Look up pictures of female karatekas and see what they're wearing under their gi. Now look that Makoto is wearing a bra and the top of her gi is loose. I like the design anyway, but if you don't see how that might be seen as sexualized then I dont know what to tell you.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:44
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how many of you posted on 8chan at some point about this?
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Jun 26, 2015 17:44
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Effectronica posted:I already knew that, because I enjoyed both games. It's not relevant to what I just said. Why there's nobody intelligent yet misguided who cares about this is a mystery for the ages. Ok I think I understand where you stand on empowered video game characters, which is that they are empowered if specifically you say they are. Thank you for the discussion.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:44
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paranoid randroid posted:hey can one of you obsessive freakshows at least fill me in if that milo guy is still around trying to radicalize resentful shut-ins Oh yeah, he's been stirring the pot since day one and since games journalism is such a shithole he has essentially endless ammo to shoot at them.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:44
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CrashCat posted:It won't ever be "eliminated", but I suspect you know this. Still, the activist voices need to continue to push against it if there will continue to be progress in that direction. What doesn't need to happen is the people who shift the "othering" part of their brain onto this sort of issue. It's no longer cool to call dark skinned people nasty names because of their color, but for some reason it's held as insanely cool and needed to insult anyone who disagrees with one's view on how gross video games are. Not a lot of poo poo gets done when neither side can talk to the "other" without going into paroxysms of overreacting, which seems to be the reason this GG poo poo caught on as much as it did in the first place. It's still as extremely cool to poo poo on other people as in old times, so long as we can trap them into a "gotcha" of our own design instead of their skin color. Yeah, it will be eliminated. Actually, insults are an essential part of human communication. You can only use the word "otherization" once people start getting murked for their support of Gamergate, but I still won't care. Totalizator posted:Describe your ideal world where sexism is solved. The poster with the handle "Totalizator" is dead.
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