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well drat, I'm glad we solved that problem with the people upset about successfully funded kickstarters
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Jun 26, 2015 21:09
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Effectronica posted:Because it's not real. It's something that people are making up in order to engage in leftist infighting, which is something that is probably thousands of years old. When people call something "callout culture" or "outrage culture", ultimately their statement comes down to a belief that technocratic soullessness is the only way to get things done, even if all they wanted to do was push back over doctrinal matters. I don't think you can have it both ways -- you can't effect change through naming and shaming the Social (Media) Justice Left wants to, though. It wants to say oppression is systemic but then it wants to get its pound of flesh through individual acts of contrition.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:10
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Bholder posted:Neither is violence/sexism in video games video games have problems with both sexism and violence
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Jun 26, 2015 21:10
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Dreylad posted:well drat, I'm glad we solved that problem with the people upset about successfully funded kickstarters Don't get me wrong, I agree. Just, people get mad about successfully funded but late as hell kickstarters all the drat time regardless, and Iunno if they're wrong to be unhappy about that.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:11
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Effectronica posted:I think one of the most interesting positions is the one that argues that we completely create ourselves, without any influences from the outside world beyond conscious ones. Well I personally think sexism, like most forms of bigotry, spawn from ignorance. Once people are educated and myths are dispelled, sexism and other forms of bigotry drop like a rock among the young.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:11
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If there's anyone still reading that doesn't know about #gamergate, this was linked before the hellthread got gassed, it explains why both sides are bad.Effectronica posted:Is there any hellthread freakazoid that's willing to justify their existence, or can we just assume that all of youse guys ought to be killed out of hand? what did I ever do to you? 
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Jun 26, 2015 21:11
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unlimited shrimp posted:Social Justice/anti-oppression activism are totally unable to effectively reconcile the individual with the systemic. Outrage culture is symptomatic of a belief that through individual acts of contrition or shaming, systemic change can be brought about. Stop talking about your fantasy worldbuilding in the Gamergate thread.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:12
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unlimited shrimp posted:Social Justice/anti-oppression activism are totally unable to effectively reconcile the individual with the systemic. Outrage culture is symptomatic of a belief that through individual acts of contrition or shaming, systemic change can be brought about. Well the real world history of social justice over the last few years is pretty much in direct opposition to everything you're saying, soooooooo....... Like why the gently caress do you think support for gay marriage is a thing now? Why the gently caress do you think support for interracial marriage is a thing now? Do you think those things just popped out into existence out of the aether?
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Jun 26, 2015 21:12
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Freakazoid_ posted:If there's anyone still reading that doesn't know about #gamergate, this was linked before the hellthread got gassed, it explains why both sides are bad. Perhaps the truth... is somewhere in the middle! Eh? Ehhhhhh??? 
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Jun 26, 2015 21:12
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Effectronica posted:Is sexism a real problem? Why or why not? Hmm no? Because if we ignore it, sexism goes away.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:12
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Shadoer posted:Well I personally think sexism, like most forms of bigotry, spawn from ignorance. Once people are educated and myths are dispelled, sexism and other forms of bigotry drop like a rock among the young. one of the methods by which people keep themselves ignorant is by immersing themselves in media that reinforces ignorant perspectives
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Jun 26, 2015 21:12
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Popular Thug Drink posted:yeah they might be bad at what they're trying to do but that doesn't make them con artists, it just means they set unrealistic expectations they're having trouble meeting which is like 90% of what happens in white collar office work I never called them con-artists, but yeah I agree with the rest of your statement. As a video producer, their quality is pretty lame and their output is pretty terrible for the budget they were donated. My chief criticism is that they're much like any other Kickstarter that makes lofty "oh if we get this money we'll do this and this and this and oh we could do that" and then they sort of fail to deliver. The Kickstarter was 2 years ago, they produced and released 7 (not the 5 I said in error) videos on their topics which only cover four subjects they outlined out of twelve. quote:Damsel in Distress - Video #1 3 videos As a video project, this isn't a good production output whatsoever.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:13
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Bedlamdan posted:Don't get me wrong, I agree. they are completely allowed to be mad, so are people who didn't pitch in at all and want other people to be mad, whether or not any of that is valid or remotely worth worrying about it is a different issue.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:13
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Bicyclops posted:Have you ever taken a train in your life? I live in NYC, so yes.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:13
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Popular Thug Drink posted:so then don't get enthused about it It is when that kickstarter is specifically for what is essentially a charitable cause. Like, women get a lovely deal in society, we have lots of charities trying to set that right. It would, I think, be pretty naive to say that someone looking to advance awareness of women's issues and getting funding for that, isn't basically getting charity money. Because that is exactly the thing that you would give money to charity for. Essentially, the kickstarter wasn't "fund my professional career because I want to be rich, and also I'll do feminist videos." It will almost certainly have been funded in part because it is a charitable cause. So in that instance, yes, if you end up making a lot of money because your cause is a good one, you should put that money towards the cause, because that's the reason you were given it in the first place. It is objectionable for the same reason it is objectionable for charitable organizations to spend their donations on extravagances for their senior employees instead of on their supposed goal. That may technically be within the bounds of the organization's protocols but it's thoroughly disingenuous to the people donating.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:13
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INH5 posted:That's a short term priming effect, and there's no evidence that it extends to a long term effect outside the lab. That's like showing people the cutscene of Aerith dying, testing them to see if they get sad, then if they do using that as evidence that video games cause depression. And how do you know that black kids don't learn black dolls are bad and ugly from how they see their parents being treated compared to white people? Or how they're treated by their peers (note that I included "how your friends treat you" as part of culture)? I'm not dismissing that these have an effect, and I don't know why you feel like I am. Culture is absolutely a lot of things. That includes fictional works that convey cultural attitudes as readily as actual physical interactions with people of your culture. edit: What I'm saying is "black people keep showing up in media as bad people" is in the same vein as "my peers treat me like a bad person" in that both are ways in which a culture communicates its ideas to individuals. However the idea that this is just a "short term priming effect" isn't really well supported in the psych community. Here's another more number heavy and more recent meta-study by the same guy, again specifically about violent video games. And certainly one could point out that many studies about violent media's effect on behavior often involve some one indulging in almost uniquely that sort of media, but that's a pretty similar situation to sexualized female characters in video games. And one that would be addressed by expanding and diversifying women's representation. edit: KongMu posted:I probably should re-read it, but I still question the validity of their assertions based off of the fact that the study was done in a manner that isn't really attributable to video games or the typical gaming experience. It's a valid point of contention. However other studies, talking about those ones up there, support the idea that even games where you're not so fully immersed in your character still affect your behavior and how you think. TGLT fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Jun 26, 2015 |
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Jun 26, 2015 21:14
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Unfunny Poster posted:I never called them con-artists, but yeah I agree. agreed but people aren't accusing them of being bunglers, they're accusing them of being opportunistic thieves
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Jun 26, 2015 21:14
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icantfindaname posted:Because it isn't a real problem People smarter than you disagree.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:14
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icantfindaname posted:Well the real world history of social justice over the last few years is pretty much in direct opposition to everything you're saying, soooooooo....... what about the guy who landed on the comet who ended up crying because everyone hated the shirt his gf made for him? This sort of stuff happens a lot on twitter.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:14
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OwlFancier posted:It is when that kickstarter is specifically for what is essentially a charitable cause. feminist critical analysis of video games isn't a charitable cause, it's social commentary
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Jun 26, 2015 21:15
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Dreylad posted:they are completely allowed to be mad, so are people who didn't pitch in at all and want other people to be mad, whether or not any of that is valid or remotely worth worrying about it is a different issue. Yes
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Jun 26, 2015 21:15
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paranoid randroid posted:im ok with manspreading laws if they are also enforced against women with those huge purses that they put on the inside seat Guess who was arrested for manspreading recently? If you said male minority's riding the train late at night, you'd be correct.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:15
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Freakazoid_ posted:If there's anyone still reading that doesn't know about #gamergate, this was linked before the hellthread got gassed, it explains why both sides are bad. truth is in the middle is illegal in Debate & Discussion, i have already contacted all the mods, who are my personal SJW friends
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Jun 26, 2015 21:15
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tsa posted:People smarter than you disagree. Looks like John Nash was right about people spying on him, he was really, really fuckin' smart after all.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:15
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Powercrazy posted:Guess who was arrested for manspreading recently? whaaaaa?
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Jun 26, 2015 21:16
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Powercrazy posted:Guess who was arrested for manspreading recently? NYPD: SJWs
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Jun 26, 2015 21:16
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(it's not, sorry)
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Jun 26, 2015 21:16
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icantfindaname posted:Well the real world history of social justice over the last few years is pretty much in direct opposition to everything you're saying, soooooooo....... Civil and Gay Rights activists succeeded by shaming people on Twitter? Funny, I don't remember that being in the history books.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:16
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also i think you'll find that the smartest people, including marylin vos savant, agree with me 100%
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Jun 26, 2015 21:16
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INH5 posted:Civil and Gay Rights activists succeeded by shaming people on Twitter? Funny, I don't remember that being in the history books. You ESL?
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Jun 26, 2015 21:17
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Dreylad posted:(it's not, sorry) Yeah I don't actually disagree with anything of what you said.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:17
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Bedlamdan posted:Don't get me wrong, I agree. They aren't wrong, but they entered into an agreement to provide funds for a product that may not be delivered. Is there a reasonable expectation on the part of the consumer that the goods or services will be provided? Yes. Take it up with the disputes department at your credit card, dealing with this is why they exist.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:17
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INH5 posted:Civil and Gay Rights activists succeeded by shaming people on Twitter? Funny, I don't remember that being in the history books. the post he quoted didn't include the words "twitter"
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Jun 26, 2015 21:17
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INH5 posted:Civil and Gay Rights activists succeeded by shaming people on Twitter? Funny, I don't remember that being in the history books. They succeeded through a sustained campaign of making bigotry socially unacceptable, yes? You've cracked the code, congrats
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Jun 26, 2015 21:17
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icantfindaname posted:They succeeded through a sustained campaign of making bigotry socially unacceptable, yes? You've cracked the code, congrats lol
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Jun 26, 2015 21:18
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Freakazoid_ posted:If there's anyone still reading that doesn't know about #gamergate, this was linked before the hellthread got gassed, it explains why both sides are bad. Quoting this so I can find it later when I'm being a lazy poo poo at home rather than at work
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Jun 26, 2015 21:18
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Popular Thug Drink posted:one of the methods by which people keep themselves ignorant is by immersing themselves in media that reinforces ignorant perspectives Partly true. Intellectually lazy people who don't want to be wrong or change will do this. Any well meaning person that isn't intellectually lazy will at least try and hear the other side and debate, which is why free speech is as important as it is. So long as the information is available, people that want to find it will and will be able to sort out what's true and false eventually. The fact is misogyny and racism are in decline isn't because the left is infiltrating the media and influencing art to change it, it's because there isn't any good arguments or evidence to support those positions. People can't argue it, so slowly by slowly each generation become less inclined towards those beliefs. Just the supply of well meaning people in every generation that isn't intellectually lazy isn't that large, so the process takes a while.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:18
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Shadoer posted:Partly true. Intellectually lazy people who don't want to be wrong or change will do this. Any well meaning person that isn't intellectually lazy will at least try and hear the other side and debate, which is why free speech is as important as it is. So long as the information is available, people that want to find it will and will be able to sort out what's true and false eventually. so now people who disagree with you are lazy as well as gullible
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Jun 26, 2015 21:18
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icantfindaname posted:They succeeded through a sustained campaign of making bigotry socially unacceptable, yes? You've cracked the code, congrats Public shaming of homophobes sure was viable political strategy 10 years ago.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:19
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So why did support for gay marriage shift, YOSPOSter? Was it due to the beneficence of our deece-six-and-a-half-figgies-providing corporate overlords?
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Jun 26, 2015 21:19
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