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Bholder posted:Interestingly for me, going back to Fallout 3 after playing New Vegas for so long made me recognise NW's flaws and see F3's strengths. Like what? I liked Fallout 3 so I'm not trying to be lovely, I just don't remember playing NV and ever thinking I missed anything from F3.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:33
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Back Hack posted:Seriously though, you go on some tangent about people from NMA and how anyone anyone who likes any of the previous Fallout games is just like them, then say anyone who has legitimate criticism about Fallout 3 is being a ignorant nitpicker. Fallout 3 problems are glaring, and not because I take it English isn't your first language? Just asking, because I said Fallout 2 in particular was a great game and there were plenty of legitimate complaints about Fallout 3. But some of the ones raised against it, like what the Enclave were planning in Fallout 3 were answered directly in the game. There are some people in this very thread who didn't even know Eden and Autumn's plans are in conflict with each other. You could argue the game could have done more to make that apparent, but that doesn't mean it isn't in the game. Stuff like "what do they eat" is silly too when the game world is pretty abstracted in all of the games. Stuff like "why is anyone dumb enough to build a settlement around an unexploded atomic bomb" and the whole of Little Lamplight on the other hand are real and glaring criticisms I feel. That or you are legitimately mad I don't think Fallout 1 is even the best old school RPG out there and I see some redeeming qualities in 3, even if I've admitted many times in this thread it's probably the weakest of the canon games. Selenephos fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Jun 26, 2015 |
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Jun 26, 2015 21:35
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people over looked stuff
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sean10mm posted:Like what? The whole open world aspect, exploding cars, exploding canisters, overall more environmental damage, the cities felt more interesting and alive and it actaully feels like I'm in a post apocalyptic area instead of a warzone between American soldiers and Roman Football players.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:40
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Bicyclops posted:Philip K. Dick is extremely cool and if there are little references to his work, it might make me crack a smile as I am playing my possibly robot dad. Definitely. And maybe some Asimov, with the Institute being a corrupt analogue to the Foundation. catlord posted:I've wanted Fallout: Louisiana for a while now. It'd be the coolest. Voodoo and cajun aristocrat families living in their swamp mansions like nothing changed? Sign me up!
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Jun 26, 2015 21:43
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BenRGamer posted:To be fair, as bad as people think it is, they also introduced cryogenic freezing in Mothership Zeta that worked better. And the article specifically mentions bio med gel possibly having something to do with it, too. Obviously the technology existed, I mean Mr House wasn't even frozen and he survived from before the war. Same with the Think Tank, and the Master and Ghouls, and Super Mutants. Lots of people survived the war.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:44
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Bholder posted:The whole open world aspect, exploding cars, exploding canisters, overall more environmental damage, the cities felt more interesting and alive and it actaully feels like I'm in a post apocalyptic area instead of a warzone between American soldiers and Roman Football players. I don't see it, the couple of towns in FO3 (combined) is dwarved by the mere NV strip alone. The NV is positively bustling with life, all of which is organically organized into factions, compared to the deprived world of FO3. Personally I prefer the idea of there being a proper conflict over exploring a wholly disjointed wasteland where no two settlements are connected, though.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:48
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steinrokkan posted:I don't see it, the couple of towns in FO3 (combined) is dwarved by the mere NV strip alone. The NV is positively bustling with life, all of which is organically organized into factions, compared to the deprived world of FO3. Fallout 3 NPCs are more like Elder Scrolls NPCs where they all have their own routine, they also talk with each other, in NW they just stand around waiting for you to talk to them. Towns are more interesting by design since they are not just repopulated ruined cities but cities made out of wreckage. And again, the whole actual post-apocalyptic setting makes smaller towns more believable.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:59
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Bholder posted:Fallout 3 NPCs are more like Elder Scrolls NPCs where they all have their own routine, they also talk with each other, in NW they just stand around waiting for you to talk to them. Towns are more interesting by design since they are not just repopulated ruined cities but cities made out of wreckage. I agree that Fallout 3's environments were more interesting to explore but the downside to NPCs having their own routine is that many NPCs are flagged as essential because of it, because they could die to something that has absolutely nothing to do with the player. The post apocalyptic setting also doesn't really mesh with what year Fallout 3 takes place in, another criticism I agree with. Even DC should be starting to rebuild by that point in time.
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Jun 26, 2015 22:03
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Rutibex posted:Obviously the technology existed, I mean Mr House wasn't even frozen and he survived from before the war. Same with the Think Tank, and the Master and Ghouls, and Super Mutants. Lots of people survived the war. Considering the mortality rate of ghouls to hate crimes, misunderstanding, and other violence, and the fact they can't reproduce, there's gonna be a time when there are no ghouls left.
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Jun 26, 2015 22:05
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I guess it's a matter of suspending disbelief or whatever. Like I don't consider Skyrim to be a 1:1 representation of the province of Skyrim as it was imagined by the creatives of Bethesda, I don't consider the world of New Vegas to be a perfect print of what the Mojave is supposed to be like. So smaller towns do feel quite believable to me simply because they make sense within the context of the world as a whole (i.e. they exist along trade routes or near crucial resources), which is more important than the embarrassingly broken Radiant AI daily routine algorithm tacked onto FO3.
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Jun 26, 2015 22:07
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Lotish posted:Considering the mortality rate of ghouls to hate crimes, misunderstanding, and other violence, and the fact they can't reproduce, there's gonna be a time when there are no ghouls left. Fortunatelly there are people who want to become ghouls... though they don't always succeeed.
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Jun 26, 2015 22:08
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I mean you blow up all of Megaton, and you get...one ghoul. Not a great rate of return, really. I remember that girl in NV who was trying to go Ghoul and just died of radiation poisoning in bed.
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Jun 26, 2015 22:10
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I really wish Bethesda would just let you kill essential NPCs, but it has to be directly from you and you have to kill them while they're on the ground after losing all HP. It'd get around the problem of NPCs dying before you even meet them but still offer you that freedom.
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Jun 26, 2015 22:11
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Mr. Fortitude posted:I really wish Bethesda would just let you kill essential NPCs, but it has to be directly from you and you have to kill them while they're on the ground after losing all HP. It'd get around the problem of NPCs dying before you even meet them but still offer you that freedom. It's just a pragmati decision, ufortunately. The Gothic series had the perfect solution - any human character you defeated would fall down, unconscious. You could then rob him without killing him, or deliver a coup de grace (or just ignore his sorry rear end). interestingly your PC was no exception - most of the time if you were killed by a human, you were just knocked out and robbed of your valuables, but allowed to wake up and go on.
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Jun 26, 2015 22:16
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catlord posted:I've wanted Fallout: Louisiana for a while now. It'd be the coolest. I want Fallout: Hawaii with a ghoul Jack Lord complete with intact hair.
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Jun 26, 2015 22:16
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I want Fallout: Pacific Islands inspired by R. L. Stevenson, please.
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Jun 26, 2015 22:17
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Mr. Fortitude posted:I really wish Bethesda would just let you kill essential NPCs, but it has to be directly from you and you have to kill them while they're on the ground after losing all HP. It'd get around the problem of NPCs dying before you even meet them but still offer you that freedom. They pretty much did this in Skyrim with certain characters--a companion can't die unless you hit them with a killing blow while they're down (assuming of course they aren't essential for plots). Just let it fail quests if you lose critical NPCs because you, with deliberate malice, executed a person. It would also be nice if the plot then worked around your stupidity, of course. The only NPC you can't kill in Pillars of Eternity without getting a game-over was Webb, and really, her little plot dump could have happened differently, since most of the information you get is from soul-resonance poo poo anyway.
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Jun 26, 2015 22:17
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Mr. Fortitude posted:The post apocalyptic setting also doesn't really mesh with what year Fallout 3 takes place in, another criticism I agree with. Even DC should be starting to rebuild by that point in time. Except that's dumb because an apocalypse where people rebuild afterwards isn't an apocalypse. Society will never rebuild in Fallout and shouldn't, the NCR should be in flames held up as a failed attempt that was eaten alive by the new reality that is the wasteland. The Enclave and the Brotherhood should keep fracturing apart into splinter groups that work against each other. poo poo should stay irrevocably hosed and any settlement big enough to stand as a ray of hope should be overrun in a matter of years.
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Jun 26, 2015 22:18
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Lotish posted:They pretty much did this in Skyrim with certain characters--a companion can't die unless you hit them with a killing blow while they're down (assuming of course they aren't essential for plots). Just let it fail quests if you lose critical NPCs because you, with deliberate malice, executed a person. lol Skyrim is as terrible as any game when it comes to essential characters
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Jun 26, 2015 22:20
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Well no poo poo, but I did say "certain characters." I have accidentally chopped several companions to death with wild swings of an axe because an NPC brought them to their knees and I landed the killing blow while spamming left-click. They should be the rule, though.
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Jun 26, 2015 22:21
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Mr. Fortitude posted:I take it English isn't your first language?  Mr. Fortitude posted:Just asking, because I said Fallout 2 in particular was a great game and there were plenty of legitimate complaints about Fallout 3. But some of the ones raised against it, like what the Enclave were planning in Fallout 3 were answered directly in the game. There are some people in this very thread who didn't even know Eden and Autumn's plans are in conflict with each other. You could argue the game could have done more to make that apparent, but that doesn't mean it isn't in the game. Stuff like "what do they eat" is silly too when the game world is pretty abstracted in all of the games. Stuff like "why is anyone dumb enough to build a settlement around an unexploded atomic bomb" and the whole of Little Lamplight on the other hand are real and glaring criticisms I feel. You didn't say much of anything in your previous post except you were being dismissive of criticism people have leveled at the poor writing and setting of Fallout 3 on the grounds they're crazy NMA Fallout fans and Beth explained stuff in the game somewhere. A lot of the criticism isn't about the who, the why, or even where; it's about the execution and lack of fore thought on how anything ties into anything. It's about a lack of immersion and suspension of disbelief. I'm not angry because you dared to insult Fallout, I'm annoyed because you're being dense. Back Hack fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Jun 26, 2015 |
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Jun 26, 2015 22:22
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:I want Fallout: Hawaii with a ghoul Jack Lord complete with intact hair. drat it, now I want this too.
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Jun 26, 2015 22:28
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Back Hack posted:
No, I said NMA are crazy and dismissive of pretty much every Fallout game that isn't the first game. I said Fallout fans can be pretty crazy about this stuff and 3 had plenty of drat problems, just that some of the ones cited by some people are explained in the game. I never said anything about the themes or immersion of Fallout 3 other than I very slightly preferred exploring DC more. I didn't intend to imply that anyone who dislikes Fallout 3 is a crazy NMA sperglord, all I was trying to say is that some of the criticisms levelled at the game isn't entirely fair while plenty of others are.
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Jun 26, 2015 22:49
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Mr. Fortitude posted:No, I said NMA are crazy and dismissive of pretty much every Fallout game that isn't the first game. I said Fallout fans can be pretty crazy about this stuff Aren't the NMA just a handful of morons?
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Jun 26, 2015 22:51
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I think it would be an ironic turn of events if somehow New Jersey was untouched by the war and was a green paradise compared to the rest of the world.
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Jun 26, 2015 22:55
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It turns out Skyrim was actually AD 2300 New England. FO4 will be a carbon copy of Skyrim.
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Jun 26, 2015 22:58
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I think sometimes people say New Vegas is lifeless compared to Fallout 3 because people just kinda chill and play it cool as opposed to the more energetic/manic way people in Fallout 3 act. Both can be cool in a videogame. Fallout 3 really falls behind on characterisation though. In New Vegas every character you meet has feelings about whats going on around them and they act like people. Like Major Knight who is just some random repair guy at Mojave Outpost but if you talk to him you can tell he's tired and fed up with all this paperwork due to the slowdowns. If you have the Confirmed Bachelor perk and flirt with him to get a discount then he's flattered but doesn't want to overtly reciprocate his feelings because of the social stigma he'd run into on base. In Fallout 3 characters are all basically one note like "this guy is using the sinister voice, he's a bad guy" or Moira who is probably the most memorable character whose personality is that she's upbeat all the time and has no self-awareness because she's crazy maybe?
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Jun 26, 2015 23:11
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My only real beef with FO3's writing was the poo poo ending before they DLCed it away. The BoS not wanting the Enclave to have control over an essential resource that would give them huge sway over the local populace made perfect sense. The scripted takedown in the vault over the GECK didn't really annoy me, though the fact that they just helicoptered in through a previously-invisible hatch in the ceiling did strike me as lazy. But mostly I don't play Bethesda games to be riveted by the story. I play to be able to rummage around in other peoples' stuff, build the most absurd weapons possible out of it, and decapitate strangers. I'm not planning on having any kind of emotional investment in FO4's characters, and that's fine so long as the environment is suitably rich in things to do and places to explore.
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Jun 26, 2015 23:13
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Theres stuff like the Enclave cheating to get into that vault or assuming a character who blew up Megaton and worked with slavers would kowtow to the kids in Lamplight which is bad writing but sometimes you gotta accept stuff like that. Then theres the "it is your destiny to enter the reactor, do not send any of your radiation immune friends to do it for you coward" thing which is just bizarre.
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Jun 26, 2015 23:23
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Valatar posted:My only real beef with FO3's writing was the poo poo ending before they DLCed it away. The BoS not wanting the Enclave to have control over an essential resource that would give them huge sway over the local populace made perfect sense. The scripted takedown in the vault over the GECK didn't really annoy me, though the fact that they just helicoptered in through a previously-invisible hatch in the ceiling did strike me as lazy. But mostly I don't play Bethesda games to be riveted by the story. I play to be able to rummage around in other peoples' stuff, build the most absurd weapons possible out of it, and decapitate strangers. I'm not planning on having any kind of emotional investment in FO4's characters, and that's fine so long as the environment is suitably rich in things to do and places to explore. I don't fully understand why the Enclave and Brotherhood are at odds with each other. They are both remnants of the pre-war American government, both dedicated to preserving technology, both are pretty much amoral. It seems to me that they should be bros, the have almost identical agendas. I mean yeah sure the DC "good guy" branch doesn't like them, but you would think the outcasts would be knocking at their door. Are the Enclave just racist against the Brotherhood for being out in the wastes so long and mutated or something?
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Jun 26, 2015 23:24
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The Enclave, as well as the BOS, struggle for power. The result of their interaction is a zero-sum level of control over the given territory. They can't co-exist, or arrive at a gentleman's agreement, because they are at odds on a fundamental existential level.
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Jun 26, 2015 23:26
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Lotish posted:Considering the mortality rate of ghouls to hate crimes, misunderstanding, and other violence, and the fact they can't reproduce, there's gonna be a time when there are no ghouls left. Wasn't Ghoulification a result of having pre war FEV, the New Plague and being outside when the bombs hit or am I mixing something up? However ghouls are all living on borrowed centuries anyway as they'll become feral sooner or later. Eventually their minds will deteriorate like their body and they'll just wake up feral one day and never go back. Although if you really want to answer what will happen to the Ghoul population or potential salvation, there's always a possibility that Dr. Sebastian and the Born Ghouls could come back in another game. Crabtree fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Jun 26, 2015 |
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Jun 26, 2015 23:31
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SirDan3k posted:Except that's dumb because an apocalypse where people rebuild afterwards isn't an apocalypse. Society will never rebuild in Fallout and shouldn't, the NCR should be in flames held up as a failed attempt that was eaten alive by the new reality that is the wasteland. The Enclave and the Brotherhood should keep fracturing apart into splinter groups that work against each other. I love how in Fallout 2 you got cities like Vault City and NCR that actually look new and clean.
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Jun 26, 2015 23:32
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I would say one of the flaws New Vegas had was that there were little to none of the random encounters that the previous games had. They had a pretty good set-up for it, what with the NCR-Legion conflict and all the petty gangs in the area, but I guess they didn't have the time for it.
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Jun 26, 2015 23:32
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To touch back on something a few pages ago, I think a Montreal DLC would be perfect if they threw in an area in the ruins of Crewbisnot Software, makers of the "Liquidator's Pledge" series of video games. And all of the terminals inside are unhackable because they cause your game to crash.
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Jun 26, 2015 23:32
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Crabtree posted:Wasn't Ghoulification a result of having pre war FEV, the New Plague and being outside when the bombs hit or am I mixing something up? Although if you really want to answer what will happen to the Ghoul population, there's always a possibility that Dr. Sebastian and the Born Ghouls could come back in another game. The most commonly accepted explanation is that radiation produced ghouls, although sometimes FEV is thrown into the theory.
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Jun 26, 2015 23:35
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Rutibex posted:I don't fully understand why the Enclave and Brotherhood are at odds with each other. They are both remnants of the pre-war American government, both dedicated to preserving technology, both are pretty much amoral. It seems to me that they should be bros, the have almost identical agendas. I mean yeah sure the DC "good guy" branch doesn't like them, but you would think the outcasts would be knocking at their door. The impression I got was just that each faction was completely insular and wasn't looking for buddies to share with. And they weren't so much preserving technology for its own sake or any altruism, BoS was preserving technology for themselves and trying to keep others from having it under the guise of 'protecting' them, while the Enclave was preserving technology to have military power to achieve their goals of retaking the country. Those two things aren't nearly similar.
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Jun 26, 2015 23:35
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Mr. Fortitude posted:No, I said NMA are crazy and dismissive of pretty much every Fallout game that isn't the first game. I said Fallout fans can be pretty crazy about this stuff and 3 had plenty of drat problems, just that some of the ones cited by some people are explained in the game. I never said anything about the themes or immersion of Fallout 3 other than I very slightly preferred exploring DC more. I didn't intend to imply that anyone who dislikes Fallout 3 is a crazy NMA sperglord, all I was trying to say is that some of the criticisms levelled at the game isn't entirely fair while plenty of others are. I think you brought up NMA knowing full well what you were saying and implying, but so what? If NMA want to hang out in there own little club house criticizing all things Fallout, that's their business, just like if anyone on this board wants to be hyper critical about the flaws Fallout 3 doesn't or does have, that's their business too. Which is fine and dandy, but don't be passive aggressive and try dismissing people's opinions by saying theirs is invalid because you don't think it's 'fair'. Back Hack fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Jun 26, 2015 |
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Jun 26, 2015 23:48
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SirDan3k posted:Except that's dumb because an apocalypse where people rebuild afterwards isn't an apocalypse. Society will never rebuild in Fallout and shouldn't, the NCR should be in flames held up as a failed attempt that was eaten alive by the new reality that is the wasteland. The Enclave and the Brotherhood should keep fracturing apart into splinter groups that work against each other. lol but why? Because that's just ~Fallout~ or what?
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Jun 26, 2015 23:59
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SirDan3k posted:Except that's dumb because an apocalypse where people rebuild afterwards isn't an apocalypse. Society will never rebuild in Fallout and shouldn't, the NCR should be in flames held up as a failed attempt that was eaten alive by the new reality that is the wasteland. The Enclave and the Brotherhood should keep fracturing apart into splinter groups that work against each other. That's not what "post-apocalyptic" means. Even in Mad Max, the grand-daddy of modern post-apocalyptic fiction there's always some glimmer of hope, even if it's just the fact that there's a crazy guy out there loving up the plans of bondage-wearing raider parties. "Post-apocalyptic" just means that the fiction takes place after some catastrophic event destroys civilization, and the people left behind have to pick up the pieces.
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