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Koesj posted:gently caress it, do an empire builder based on Marx's stages of history. A story based grand strategy game with a campaign and objectives: Paradox's Hegel: End of History. This time it's synthetical!
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Jun 26, 2015 14:31
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Gort posted:Are you saying this view is incorrect? It's correct in the long run, the problem is reconciling that with the way that military doctrine and leadership can result in wildly different outcomes in the short run. Germany's wild success in 1940 and 41 against France and the Soviet Union just isn't possible in a game that isn't capable to taking into account those things. It's doubly impossible in a multiplayer game starting in 1936 where all the players have the benefit of hindsight. The Decisive Campaigns series have some interesting mechanics that give players a nudge towards acknowledging historical constraints on their actions while still offering freedom and making it a question of cost/benefit analysis, but there hasn't been mention of any of that sort of thing from the previews so I don't know if Paradox are doing anything in that direction. e: I mean WW2 is basically defined by Germany punching ridiculously above its weight in the first few years of the war and then around 1943 losing the ability of it's superior military leadership and doctrine to offset the greater economic resource of its enemies Alchenar fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Jun 26, 2015 |
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Jun 26, 2015 14:49
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Gort posted:Are you saying this view is incorrect? No, the opposite. What I meant was, the question "is HOI a wargame or does it need all this political/economic stuff?" doesn't really make any sense given that definition of war. Which is a definition I do agree with. Maybe the solution to terrible political systems in HOI games is to go, "Well, if this is supposed to be an integral part of the design, maybe it should be an integral part of the design." You kind of get the sense that they design everything else and just bolt the politics on, which has the exact result you'd expect. Two years into development is probably the worst time to start backseat devving, though. We've no idea how well they've solved the problem in 4 or even really how much the new system resembles the old. DStecks posted:Parliaments in EU4 seemed like a pipe dream at launch, and whelp, now we got 'em. I guess, but functionally it's just another way to buy little boosts, like ideas or policies or whatever the new Protestant widgets are called. Actually, that's exactly it, they're policies that get more expensive the larger your country is.
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Jun 26, 2015 15:08
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New dev diary, instantly reminds me of the complaints about statistics: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/hearts-of-iron-iv-18th-development-diary-26th-of-june-2015.866109/#post-19536513 Recovery Rate 30%. 30% of what? Suppression 4. 4 is a bigger number than 3 I guess? Breakthrough 243.7. How high does it have to be before you can release a Queen single? e: being able to designate elite units to get new kit first is pretty cool. Likewise being able to throw out divisions well before they hit 100% training is an important pre-requisite of being able to replicate the Barbarossa 'lose one tranche of armies, raise a second and a third and a fourth' nature of how the Soviets organised their defence. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Jun 26, 2015 |
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Jun 26, 2015 15:10
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Please advance to page 4 of the DD thread for goodess. You can't really explain every stat on screen, but for example, if you put your mouse over that recovery rate stat ingame it'd tell you "How much extra organization you can regain hourly when not in combat" Darkrenown fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Jun 26, 2015 |
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Jun 26, 2015 15:15
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Darkrenown posted:Please advance to page 4 of the DD thread for goodess. Eh nobody took the bait yet. Is that stuff easily moddable?
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Jun 26, 2015 15:19
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Which stuff exactly? But for more most things the answer should be yes.
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Jun 26, 2015 15:20
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Darkrenown posted:Which stuff exactly? But for more most things the answer should be yes. Division symbols, like will you be able to make image packs for those?
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Jun 26, 2015 15:22
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Vodos posted:Division symbols, like will you be able to make image packs for those? yeah
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Jun 26, 2015 15:23
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Autonomous Monster posted:I got curious and looked it up on steamspy. CK2 is list as having 1.1 million owners, EUIV 725k. HOI3 is "only" 375k, but I think we need to remember that HOI3 is something of an antediluvian here in that it predates Paradox's move to Steam; I imagine there's a large proportion of owners still with copies from GG. So it looks like HOI sales are comparable to EUIV, at least. I actually expected EUIV to have more than a million owners given how popular it seems to be, but I think it just has very loyal fans that all have five billion hours logged in the game.
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Jun 26, 2015 16:02
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How much control is a developer allowed to have in controlling what appears on their Steam workshop? Just wondering how many awful and awkward holocaust-related mods I'll have to scan through every time I want to find something fun...
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Jun 26, 2015 18:02
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Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:How much control is a developer allowed to have in controlling what appears on their Steam workshop? I think Steam is probably the one clamping down on that, not the developer. That being said doesn't the BlackICE mod (the one big one for HOI3) obnoxiously slob Hitler's knob in true wehraboo style?
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Jun 26, 2015 18:23
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Drone posted:I think Steam is probably the one clamping down on that, not the developer. I stopped looking at BIce when I saw its obnoxiously over-inflated unit lists, but it wouldn't shock me. Were you ever concerned whether your motorized infantry was primarily trucks or halftracks? Or motorcycles or quads or tricycles or maybe hoverboards?? Well we got you covered
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Jun 26, 2015 18:26
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I hope Paradox will model bicycle infantry because that was the best.
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Jun 26, 2015 18:29
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Autonomous Monster posted:I got curious and looked it up on steamspy. CK2 is list as having 1.1 million owners, EUIV 725k. HOI3 is "only" 375k, but I think we need to remember that HOI3 is something of an antediluvian here in that it predates Paradox's move to Steam; I imagine there's a large proportion of owners still with copies from GG. So it looks like HOI sales are comparable to EUIV, at least. Lots of those HOI3s probably went out with bundles that included other PDX strategy titles for pennies and have probably never been played - PDX is very clear that CK2 is far and away their most successful game ever.
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Jun 26, 2015 18:38
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Maybe someone here can help me figure this out from the HoI-4 division builder screen-shots. Your division can have 4-5 "columns", which I'm assuming are basically brigades, right? And each column has 5 slots (regiments/battalions?) to drop unit types in. Are there going to be any bonuses or meta-games to how you organize your battalions into brigades? Like if you have a division of just light and medium tanks, does the division perform differently if you have all the medium tanks in one column and the lights in another, versus some lights and mediums in each? Or will the layout of units in that screen not matter at all when it comes to the division's performance?
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Jun 26, 2015 22:53
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Panzeh posted:And then you get the problem of designing mechanics that end up being meaningless because they turn off when you go to war. I don't think a wargame particularly needs a country's political parties. Internal politics can make a huge difference in a nation's ability to wage war. Politics is what made Russia drop out of WW1 a year before it officially ended. If Lincoln had lost his re-election campaign the south would have won the American civil war despite being at a disadvantage in essentially every possible aspect. Encouraging political radicals in enemy nations is a hugely important part of a wargame in the scope of something like Hearts of Iron. If the game was purely about troop movement and tactical command, then yeah, politics could probably be skipped, but a grand strategy game has a broader scope than that.
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Jun 27, 2015 03:05
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I just wanted more politics and economics. I don't think vicky 2 style gameplay is necessary or desired. From what I did play of HOI2-3, they both were so lacking there was no point to peace except for war. That simply doesn't interest me, because what do you do when the war is over? It's strange, because war is what I love doing in CK2 and EU4, but both games give you something to do during and before/after war. HOI never did, and to me has always been the weakest and blandest of the paradox product line. If they want to go beyond "just another WW2 game", they gotta put more into it. It's not grand strategy if it's just a war game, and there's hundreds of those already....what's the point? That's my opinion anyway. It can be wrong. 
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Jun 27, 2015 03:47
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The Cheshire Cat posted:Internal politics can make a huge difference in a nation's ability to wage war. Politics is what made Russia drop out of WW1 a year before it officially ended. If Lincoln had lost his re-election campaign the south would have won the American civil war despite being at a disadvantage in essentially every possible aspect. Encouraging political radicals in enemy nations is a hugely important part of a wargame in the scope of something like Hearts of Iron. If the game was purely about troop movement and tactical command, then yeah, politics could probably be skipped, but a grand strategy game has a broader scope than that. Lincoln and the Tsar: famous leaders of WWII.
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Jun 27, 2015 03:58
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Bel Monte posted:From what I did play of HOI2-3, they both were so lacking there was no point to peace except for war. That simply doesn't interest me, because what do you do when the war is over? You've won the game or lost it. I've no interest in some lame game that tries to be everything, like Supreme Ruler.
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Jun 27, 2015 03:58
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Bel Monte posted:I just wanted more politics and economics. I don't think vicky 2 style gameplay is necessary or desired. When the war is over the game is over. HoI isn't CK or EU, it's not about building your unique snowflake, it's a wargame simulating a decade of warfare. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the game would be vastly improved by moving the default start-date up to 1939 and disposing of the (extremely boring) pre-war period.
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Jun 27, 2015 04:02
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Lincoln and the Tsar sounds like a pretty neat name for an alt-history novel. 
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Jun 27, 2015 04:04
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I want more in-depth politics 'cause it'll make the Cold War mod I dream of much better  has there ever been a good Cold War grand strategy game?
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Jun 27, 2015 04:06
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Koramei posted:I want more in-depth politics 'cause it'll make the Cold War mod I dream of much better Twilight Struggle is the best Cold War game there is. It's not on the computer, though- yet. Computer version is supposedly coming out.
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Jun 27, 2015 04:07
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BlackICE allows you to tweak the power of each Major at the start of the game. So if you find Germany is too strong it's extremely easy to make them weaker or make everyone else stronger. Or both. I haven't played it enough to know if Germany's overall baseline strength is inflated though. It's really not a bad mod.
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Jun 27, 2015 04:08
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Panzeh posted:You've won the game or lost it. I've no interest in some lame game that tries to be everything, like Supreme Ruler. CKII has war and character politics and you might lose your empire if you gently caress it up, losing a war isn't the end either as you can still survive and play despite that too. EUIV has finally gotten domestic politics, but it also has basic trade oriented mechanics, colonialism, basic diplomacy and politicking with HRE mechanics and such along with war. Loosing a major war is rarely the end, neither is winning one. V2 has war, population, migration, economics and trade, politics global and domestic. You can lose territory because great powers deem you shouldn't have done X, or win more for the same reason. Great wars didn't do much, but losing and winning wasn't the end goal. HOI is a war.Everything is aimed at one war and one war only. After which, you might as well shut off the game.  uPen posted:When the war is over the game is over. HoI isn't CK or EU, it's not about building your unique snowflake, it's a wargame simulating a decade of warfare. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the game would be vastly improved by moving the default start-date up to 1939 and disposing of the (extremely boring) pre-war period. Hitler wanted his own snowflake nation. Are you going to take that away from him?! 
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Jun 27, 2015 04:11
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Bel Monte posted:CKII has war and character politics and you might lose your empire if you gently caress it up, losing a war isn't the end either as you can still survive and play despite that too.
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Jun 27, 2015 04:16
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Bel Monte posted:I just wanted more politics and economics. I don't think vicky 2 style gameplay is necessary or desired. It's a tricky balancing act because on the one hand if you make it too open, you might end up with a WW2 game where WW2 doesn't actually happen, but on the other hand prewar actions can have a huge impact on how the war itself goes, and managing your domestic situation is just as important an element as foreign conquest when waging the war itself, and generally the biggest detriment to domestic management is that the war happens. So you have to set up a situation where players are going to want as much time to get their affairs in order before the war starts, but ALSO need to create a situation where they actually are going to want the war to happen. It's even more difficult because historically it's not like both sides were gunning for war anyway. It would be weird to incentivize the Allies to go on the offensive, but they still need to be motivated to go to war eventually rather than keep delaying forever. Motivating the Axis towards conquest is easier because that's likely what players will do anyway, but if they're playing a really passive game it's also an issue because then you need to have the Allies start pushing, and what's their motivation is Germany isn't forcing their hand? At the same time, you want to give both sides enough freedom to choose how they want to approach the conflict so they feel like their prewar decisions actually matter rather than always just being railroaded down the historical path. It's basically a conflict between "how do you give people the freedom and power to really control their nation, while at the same time ensuring they do what they're supposed to for the game to actually happen?" The Cheshire Cat fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Jun 27, 2015 |
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Jun 27, 2015 04:16
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Well, I don't know about you guys, but I like doing odd starts and playing against the grain, so when I get HOI4, my first game will be an attempt to play as Germany without starting WW2. A peaceful Hitler!
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Jun 27, 2015 04:20
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The Cheshire Cat posted:It's basically a conflict between "how do you give people the freedom and power to really control their nation, while at the same time ensuring they do what they're supposed to for the game to actually happen?" You don't? I mean, ever since Paradox moved away from a strict historical timeline their games have been more dynamic and interesting. There's still a push towards history, but why fuss so much about WWII being just so accurate and historical when nothing else they've done in the last few years has been anything like it? Paradox could make a WWII strategy game that isn't just like every other one out there. WWII war games are dime a dozen. Grand Strategy? Not so much. If it's not for me though, then it's not for me. No big deal. I just won't likely buy it. I just think they're missing out on an opportunity to make things more in depth than rock-paper-scissors-encircle_troops war time.
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Jun 27, 2015 04:28
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DrSunshine posted:Lincoln and the Tsar sounds like a pretty neat name for an alt-history novel.  Well it has Russians covertly helping Abe Lincoln invade Britain, at least.
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Jun 27, 2015 04:29
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DrSunshine posted:Lincoln and the Tsar sounds like a pretty neat name for an alt-history novel. Fun fact: in January 1863, Poles rebelled against tsarist rule. The Poles enjoyed popular support in Britain and France, who also happened to be the Confederacy's primary foreign supporters. A squadron of the Russian navy paid a visit to New York City that autumn as a show of support to the Union (and to get them out of the Baltic in the event of war with Britain and France).
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Jun 27, 2015 04:32
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Bel Monte posted:CKII has war and character politics and you might lose your empire if you gently caress it up, losing a war isn't the end either as you can still survive and play despite that too. HOI2 was a gateway drug for me to other paradox games, so yes HOI4 won't appeal to everyone but might allow someone to experience other paradox games because they have a ww2 boner. Also quoting above because yes.
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Jun 27, 2015 04:32
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DrSunshine posted:Lincoln and the Tsar sounds like a pretty neat name for an alt-history romance novel.
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Jun 27, 2015 06:09
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I feel there's a niche HOI4 can fill to be more in depth with its politics than just War In The East: Sane People Edition but yeah it shouldn't be something like EU4/CK2. Panzeh's mentioned Totaler Krieg! a couple of times, which had a really interesting system of choosing events in the run-up to the war that could cause pretty significant changes of how the war would play out, but it always ends up with the Axis fighting the Western Allies and the Soviets. You could end up with Germany allying fascist Poland and the French signing an alliance with the Russians though. Really I think part of the problem is that Paradox games are too detailed to do something like this, you can abstract it a lot better in a boardgame than in a game which runs realtime for several years before the war begins. (Honestly I wish there was some way to get a card-driven system into EU4 to handle the events better than the current MTTH system)
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Jun 27, 2015 06:32
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Disco Infiva posted:Yeah, but I'm pretty sure "hottest selling series" before CK2 means sold over 10.000 copies 50-100k was great after a year back then.
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Jun 27, 2015 06:36
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crabcakes66 posted:BlackICE allows you to tweak the power of each Major at the start of the game. So if you find Germany is too strong it's extremely easy to make them weaker or make everyone else stronger. Or both. An idea I've had ever since HOI3's Leadership mechanic made it pretty much impossible to make good headway as a minor nation was a mode that'd confer bonuses on your country as a minor nation, just so you can make a larger impact as Czechoslovakia or Romania or Argentina or Australia. You're not playing by the rules like everyone else, but you're the human player, and you're supposed to be special. That's probably actually just turning on Easy difficulty/handicap though.
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Jun 27, 2015 07:58
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I always wished that the licensing system in HoI3 would allow minors to participate meaningfully, but there was never any incentive for majors to waste IC like that. With different models of equipment being tracked separately in HoI4, things are looking up. If minors can negotiate a good deal for equipment to get a leg up on its neighbors (Romania trading oil for German tanks and planes), or for diplomatic concessions (Czechoslovakia trading tanks to Yugoslavia in exchange for help against a German invasion), that would give them much more agency than in previous games. Maybe not enough to do a world conquest in the game's timeframe, but hopefully enough to keep them interesting.
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Jun 27, 2015 08:23
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How many copies has Skylines sold now? Like 1.5 million? And the vast majority of those were sold at full price within a month of release.
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Jun 27, 2015 08:25
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:How many copies has Skylines sold now? Like 1.5 million? And the vast majority of those were sold at full price within a month of release. So what you're saying is that Paradox should make Rome II which is a traffic simulator in the unplanned, insane snarl that is Imperial Rome.
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Jun 27, 2015 08:38
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