|
Al Cowens posted:The same way SedanChair is black. I have no reason to believe that Depression Quest is not a text-based CYOA game, and that SedanChair is not black.
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 07:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 22:54 |
|
|
VideoTapir posted:Thank you gamergate for making me hate the term "gamer" more than I already did. -- Polygon
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 07:31
|
|
|
Unfunny Poster posted:Are we going to go off on a "what is a game" tangent? i take a broad view, where most any purpose built software to entertain and inform is a game. i prefer to look at the intent of the developer rather than the structure of the software
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 07:31
|
|
|
Nobody, outside of catty gossiping morons, cares that Quinn slept with someone. "Oh no, a lady person has shared her body with many people she considers friends, how terrible." The issue of pay for play came up though, and that is an issue that doesn't just affect gaming, it affects a lot of things. It also is something that has happened throughout human history. Why it mattered was that the evidence, however circumstantial, points to her game winning an award and received coverage because of her relationships. It brings into question the judgement of the people involved. When the issue was pressed, instead of coming clean and saying "We probably hosed up and got involved in something mildly unethical and we're sorry, we'll do better in the future.", they circled the wagons, doubled-down, and called everyone sexists and trolls for bringing it up in the first place. In short, the Quinn issue would have been dead in the water if a swift and proper PR response to the issue came about, there was a good amount of wrist-slapping involved, and policies were changed so that if a judge in a competition had a relationship with someone, or a reviewer had the same, they recluse themselves from the issue entirely and help to avoid any possibility of unethical behavior. Obviously that didn't happen.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 07:31
|
|
|
Al Cowens posted:All video games are stupid, of course. This article right here is why I never, ever want games journalism to change.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 07:33
|
|
|
goku im piss posted:When the issue was pressed, instead of coming clean and saying "We probably hosed up and got involved in something mildly unethical and we're sorry, we'll do better in the future.", they circled the wagons, doubled-down, and called everyone sexists and trolls for bringing it up in the first place. so it was the other party to blame, for calling everyone sexists and trolls
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 07:33
|
|
|
Popular Thug Drink posted:so it was the other party to blame, for calling everyone sexists and trolls
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 07:34
|
|
|
goku im piss posted:Nobody, outside of catty gossiping morons, cares that Quinn slept with someone. "Oh no, a lady person has shared her body with many people she considers friends, how terrible." This still doesn't explain the bile towards Quinn, as I thought her ex even said that she wasn't sleeping with anyone else at the time? It really doesn't seem like any of the journalists involved got it nearly as bad as Quinn did, and that really does seem kind of rooted in something more, like sexism.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 07:39
|
|
|
Popular Thug Drink posted:so it was the other party to blame, for calling everyone sexists and trolls The massive circlejerking about it from 4chan and Reddit played pretty well into the hands of the Journalism community. Of course there was sexism and trolling, which was lovely and stupid. Quinn didn't deserve any of it. But those reactions didn't absolve the parties involved from pretending the whole things didn't exist or wasn't real. Again, this thing would have died before it ever really got rolling if certain parties had said "We hosed up, sorry, here's how we're fixing it. Please stop harassing Quinn, we were the ones who allowed this to occur." Sinnlos posted:This still doesn't explain the bile towards Quinn, as I thought her ex even said that she wasn't sleeping with anyone else at the time? It really doesn't seem like any of the journalists involved got it nearly as bad as Quinn did, and that really does seem kind of rooted in something more, like sexism. I'd like to think that the root cause of the issue was more in a lack of trust people had with the Journalists and the Indie groups themselves rather than just a chunk of male shitheads, but until the ball really got rolling, not nearly enough vitriol and hate was directed at the right people. Edit: Also, lets be fair in that we're talking about Gawker, initially anyway. They're sensationalist shitsuckers who feed on controversy.Burying this was probably was the thing furthest from their minds, both from a editorial and financial standpoint. I would say that while the channers and associated groups were doing some horrible poo poo, Gawker was just as culpable for fanning the flames even more to generate revenue. goku im piss fucked around with this message at 07:55 on Jun 27, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 07:41
|
|
|
Sinnlos posted:This still doesn't explain the bile towards Quinn, as I thought her ex even said that she wasn't sleeping with anyone else at the time? It really doesn't seem like any of the journalists involved got it nearly as bad as Quinn did, and that really does seem kind of rooted in something more, like sexism.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 07:42
|
|
|
Al Cowens posted:Depression Quest is not a game. Zoe Quinn (aka Chelsea van Valkenburg) is not a game developer.  turnways posted:The basic premise of the people who harassed her ranged from what you said, to believing she was a lovely person and deserving of outward of expression of hate, to a myriad of other reasons. goku im piss posted:Nobody, outside of catty gossiping morons, cares that Quinn slept with someone. "Oh no, a lady person has shared her body with many people she considers friends, how terrible." Let's not beat around the bush here, many people have latched onto this thing we call gamergate in the 10 months since, and yes no one except the ROK/Reaxxion crowd are out and proud misogynists, but to those who formed the inception and core of "5 guys" and The Quinnspiracy that became gamergate, it was laser focused on Zoe and hurting her. Eron used channers as his personal army and this has had consequences for everyone, including those who came to gamergate late.  There wasn't much "games journalists" were going to be able to do to address people who saw a situation that was basically "this indie developer knew a bunch of press people and they promoted her free indie game as friends might do for each other" as "this woman must have slept her way to all this coverage because her game is not a game I mean how else would it get coverage?" 
Assepoester fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Jun 27, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 07:42
|
|
|
Popular Thug Drink posted:i take a broad view, where most any purpose built software to entertain and inform is a game. i prefer to look at the intent of the developer rather than the structure of the software I don't really know what constitutes a "game" to be honest. You can make a "game" out of pretty much anything so long as you're creative enough. DQ was mildly interesting, and that was about all I had to say about it as a consumer of that product. The whole "this bitch made a non-game" is a stupid argument. I mean, Battleship Potemkin isn't a "film" by most people's modern standards but a constant barrage of montages that you infer as the consumer (ignoring for just a moment it was a form of propaganda at the time). In short: people are dumb and are really finnicky about what hills they decide to die on.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 07:45
|
|
|
Unfunny Poster posted:Wasn't the claim that Moot was "corrupted by SJWs"? 
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 07:45
|
|
|
Al Cowens posted:Is there any possible way to have an objection with these people without being declared a misogynist or not? Yeah, not disclosing their relationship with Zoe and recusing themselves was bad and kind of lovely. It's not misogynistic to say that. It is misogynistic, at least in my eyes, when she receives a disproportionate amount of criticism and even harassment for a debacle she seemingly had little to do with actually creating.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 07:45
|
|
|
Al Cowens posted:The same way SedanChair is black. That morons can't understand it?
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 07:48
|
|
|
Guys, a member of an industry hosed a journalist...that covers that very industry
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 07:49
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:That morons can't understand it? SedanChair posted:I agree with everything Anita Sarkeesian has ever said. Do you agree with racial segregation?
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 07:49
|
|
|
Al Cowens posted:Veering a little too off topic. Oh do you think so?
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 07:51
|
|
|
Al Cowens posted:Veering a little too off topic. Let's talk about this instead. Okay I'll defend Anita on this one, there's nothing there that says she approves of racial segregation.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 07:51
|
|
|
The whole bombing the Japanese back to traditional values is the one grand gaff Anita's made so far.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 07:54
|
|
|
Trabisnikof posted:Also, Apple has already started reinstating apps in the store: This tweet maybe? 
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 07:54
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:Oh do you think so? Al Cowens posted:https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/119507163545731072
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 07:56
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:Al Cowens posted: No, and she doesn't appear to either. I mean somebody who secretly believes that segregation would be positive (like you) might somehow infer that was her implication, but only the sort of person who is used to dogwhistle media (again, you) would think that. woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 08:03 on Jun 27, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 07:58
|
|
|
goku im piss posted:The massive circlejerking about it from 4chan and Reddit played pretty well into the hands of the Journalism community. Of course there was sexism and trolling, which was lovely and stupid. Shouldn't the parties who were harassing Quinn have been the ones to apologize? Something along the lines of "We hosed up, sorry, our gripes are actually with gaming journalism and not game developers"?
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 07:59
|
|
|
It was posted as a "rebuttal" that went nowhere, and she never cited that study. That's pretty damning.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 07:59
|
|
|
Al Cowens posted:It was posted as a "rebuttal" that went nowhere, and she never cited that study. That's pretty damning. It damns her to what? What is it supposed to mean?
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 08:00
|
|
|
Exclamation Marx posted:Actually it is, and she is. R.L. Stine is my favorite game developer
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 08:01
|
|
|
Cardboard Box A posted:This is a mixture of hindsight is 20/20 and wishful thinking. If people didn't think they were doing something unethical, does it entirely absolve them of any responsibility? Gawker editors let this thing burn because they were making cash off of the shitstorm, which shows just how much they actually cared about Quinn the person verses Quinn the Story. circ dick soleil posted:Shouldn't the parties who were harassing Quinn have been the ones to apologize? Something along the lines of "We hosed up, sorry, our gripes are actually with gaming journalism and not game developers"? Sure, If you can get an unruly mob to agree to something. At this point, people have rallied behind that and mostly stuck to their guns, even policing to some degree to move away from the mob and be more organized. But early on? No. Quinn was the unfortunate focal point of unnecessary hate. Gawker should have been burnt to the ground, not her. goku im piss fucked around with this message at 08:07 on Jun 27, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 08:02
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:It damns her to what? What is it supposed to mean?
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 08:03
|
|
|
Al Cowens posted:You're smarter than this. But you haven't provided me any evidence that you are. So tell me, what was she trying to say?
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 08:05
|
|
|
hmm this racially segregating classrooms idea seems pretty smart i wonder why no ones thought of it before gamergate is dumb, anti gamergate is dumb. you are not obligated to defend someone suggesting "separate but equal" classrooms is a good idea because they agree with you on a dumb twitter flamewar (and if you think saying "many studies suggest segregation improves learning" does not have any implicit support of said segregation or imply it might be a good idea you are being willfully dense)
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 08:06
|
|
|
goku im piss posted:Gawker should have been burnt to the ground, not her.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 08:08
|
|
|
Profondo Rosso posted:hmm this racially segregating classrooms idea seems pretty smart i wonder why no ones thought of it before
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 08:08
|
|
|
Sharkie posted:What does this have to do with video game journalism?
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 08:09
|
|
|
afeelgoodpoop posted:his "girlfriend" worked for gawker, and was believed to be part of pushing censorship on 4chan im the picture of lincoln on the wall
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 08:09
|
|
|
I find it really hard to believe that Gamergate is concerned with journalism, primarily because the first thing that happened was everyone started attacking Quinn and ignoring the journalists involved in the scandal. It seems like if they were just looking for a reason to go after corrupt gaming journalists they would have focused on that first instead of months later.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 08:11
|
|
|
Al Cowens posted:Veering a little too off topic. Let's talk about this instead. I know that we have jettisoned nuance long, long ago, but this twitter comment is referencing actual studies Slate quote:There are three main reasons we need to talk more about teachers and race: First, it matters. The research body is fairly conclusive that, other things being equal, students learn more when taught by a teacher of the same race. Thomas Dee, a professor of education at Stanford University, used test score data in Tennessee to conclude that spending just one year with a teacher of the same race significantly improves students’ progress in reading and math—for both white and black children. Other studies have concluded that placing students of color with teachers of the same race reduces special education and suspension rates, and increases graduation and college admission rates. http://faculty.smu.edu/Millimet/classes/eco7321/papers/dee01.pdf Nowhere did she say its a desirable outcome, it probably exists because of the myrid cultural factors that come with America's complex race issues rather than anything inherent, but keep acting like we've finally exposed that horrible woman as a segregationist, apartheid, racist, nazi scumbag if it helps you sleep at night. And here was me being proud that I'd never posted in a gamergate thread.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 08:12
|
|
|
Al Cowens posted:Anita.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 08:13
|
|
|
The old indie developer/feminist meeting known as "the playful is the political" that has transcripts available show them bemoaning how anita seemed like somewhat of a dud to them. I have a gut feeling that jonathan mcIntosh provides most of the content in her series. here's a youtube (warning:thunderf00t) going over her thesis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szfhRRxJNmQ You can kind of use that to predict how she reacted to mad max with all those gender essentialist concepts of hers. afeelgoodpoop fucked around with this message at 08:16 on Jun 27, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 08:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 22:54 |
|
|
Al Cowens posted:Why not both? Because while later on we're treated to more personal information about Quinn and find out she really not all that nice of a person anyway, she was a single individual, not a entity. Same with Anita. She received a lot of abuse for the Tropes stuff, which was completely undeserved. Who gets so mad about a concept they tell someone they're going to rape and kill them? goku im piss fucked around with this message at 08:19 on Jun 27, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2015 08:14
|
|