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Al Cowens posted:Feminism as practiced by upper-middle class white people does not hold a monopoly on the path to gender equality any more than the catholic church does on the path to God. You know, just because there is a white person around, doesn't mean they're in charge.
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Jun 27, 2015 10:41
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Al Cowens posted:Not educated enough on those. Those are footnotes. Wikipedia entries. Irrelevant to my life. However, gender equality and the dissolution of rigid gender roles sounds absolutely fantastic and I'm all for it. I am so brave making this bold statement in 2015. lol you are so full of poo poo
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Jun 27, 2015 10:42
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Dapper Dan posted:Take for example another art game: 'Her Story'. The only gameplay is a series of FMV clips you watch. You have to piece together the mystery yourself, sometimes using a pen and paper. It might not be fun, but it is engaging and probably the best FMV game ever invented. You have to find out the story yourself and piece it together. It is engaging and to some people fun. Doesn't Gamergate hate that game based on the name of it alone?
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Jun 27, 2015 10:42
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Sharkie posted:Yeah, that was a good one. That's an easy one. People latching onto works from very polarizing and not to mention possibly mentally ill examples from the likes of Solanas, Dworkin, Firestone, etc.
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Jun 27, 2015 10:42
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Gum posted:lol you are so full of poo poo
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Jun 27, 2015 10:43
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Eh, the upper middle-class is going to die off on its own anyway. It just doesn't make any financial sense for them to have kids, so they're reproducing below the replacement rate. Eventually their wealth will concentrate into a fewer number of super-rich.
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Jun 27, 2015 10:43
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Exclamation Marx posted:Why do you think there's a behind the scenes conspiracy? And what's social marxism? You seem to be using your own definitions and treating them like they're commonplace. I only say behind the scenes because I do not study it and it's all very convoluted, theoretical ideas of achieving equality instead of cold, simple equality of opportunities. Social Marxism in the sense that its bassed on an oppressor/oppressed ideological framework.
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Jun 27, 2015 10:44
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Al Cowens posted:And you're a rapist. is the shadowy golden circle of wild haired women who plot your demise also a rapist afeelgoodpoop posted:I only say behind the scenes because I do not study it and it's all very convoluted, theoretical ideas of achieving equality instead of cold, simple equality of opportunities. Social Marxism in the sense that its bassed on an oppressor/oppressed ideological framework. social marxism is a fake idea invented by actual irl nazis to explain why nobody likes them
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Jun 27, 2015 10:45
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Al Cowens posted:And you're a rapist. That's a strong accusation to be throwing around.
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Jun 27, 2015 10:46
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Popular Thug Drink posted:social marxism is a fake idea invented by actual irl nazis to explain why nobody likes them circ dick soleil posted:That's a strong accusation to be throwing around.
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Jun 27, 2015 10:47
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Dapper Dan posted:The thing about art games is that in a sense, they don't have to be fun. For example, I wouldn't consider 'Papers Please' fun, but it is an engaging game with unique gameplay elements and a very interesting message/story. Sunset committed the cardinal sin: It was boring. You don't have to be fun, but you absolutely cannot be boring. It did tell and not show, which is why it only sold 4k copies. And its message was pretty easily understood. It was just awful. That's a lot of what it came down to in my opinion. It wasn't so much that there was coverage of the art games or games that looked at social issues, it was more that they got ahead of themselves and didn't necessarily cover games, they covered gestures at games. Depression Quest and Tales of Tales games fit into that "hits all the right notes for this subset of the press, didn't bring anything to the table" box that people are getting irrationally angry at. It'd be fair to still call those games art, but they were bad art, and getting the level of promotion that a lot of small developers would give their right arm for does make the disconnect I've been talking about deeper. People naturally don't like shills. Someone telling you that (AAA release) is the greatest thing on the planet is grating enough. Seeing the gaming equivalent of a crust punk's garage band getting international press just makes the (already laughable) system look even more illegitimate.
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Jun 27, 2015 10:48
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NightVis posted:That's a lot of what it came down to in my opinion. It wasn't so much that there was coverage of the art games or games that looked at social issues, it was more that they got ahead of themselves and didn't necessarily cover games, they covered gestures at games. Depression Quest and Tales of Tales games fit into that "hits all the right notes for this subset of the press, didn't bring anything to the table" box that people are getting irrationally angry at. It'd be fair to still call those games art, but they were bad art, and getting the level of promotion that a lot of small developers would give their right arm for does make the disconnect I've been talking about deeper. People naturally don't like shills. Someone telling you that (AAA release) is the greatest thing on the planet is grating enough. Seeing the gaming equivalent of a crust punk's garage band getting international press just makes the (already laughable) system look even more illegitimate.
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Jun 27, 2015 10:50
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afeelgoodpoop posted:I only say behind the scenes because I do not study it and it's all very convoluted, theoretical ideas of achieving equality instead of cold, simple equality of opportunities. Social Marxism in the sense that its bassed on an oppressor/oppressed ideological framework. I don't understand how you can acknowledge a current lack of equality of opportunities and then think there's something wrong with using a framework based on dynamics of power.
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Jun 27, 2015 10:50
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al cowens- cares enough about the role of black people in feminism to post about it extensively in multiple threads, not enough to actually look up a black feminist
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Jun 27, 2015 10:51
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Dapper Dan posted:The thing about art games is that in a sense, they don't have to be fun. For example, I wouldn't consider 'Papers Please' fun, but it is an engaging game with unique gameplay elements and a very interesting message/story. Sunset committed the cardinal sin: It was boring. You don't have to be fun, but you absolutely cannot be boring. It did tell and not show, which is why it only sold 4k copies. And its message was pretty easily understood. It was just awful. Yeah, pretty much the biggest issue is you need the work to be engaging. Depression Quest had the "player" engaged by making the choices that lead them down the paths the writer laid out for example. From what I saw of Sunset, it didn't have much engagement or cause for you to keep interacting with the game. Also this is how most people's homes will look like after a few hours of Her Story  Though I can see how some people may mistake it for a GGers bedroom. Seriously, go play Her Story with a friend or two and you'll understand how a "not a game" is actually a game.
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Jun 27, 2015 10:53
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I don't see why social marxism is even a thing that exists because it sounds like something that human beings would just prefer naturally.
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Jun 27, 2015 10:54
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Exclamation Marx posted:I don't understand how you can acknowledge a current lack of equality of opportunities and then think there's something wrong with using a framework based on dynamics of power. I'm not a very learned person and I've never been to college so most of the stuff I learn about feminism either comes from random blurbs or things like gamergate. Also I'm lazy.
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Jun 27, 2015 10:55
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Al Cowens posted:Have a link dump holy loving poo poo! you've cracked the code! Quick, harass some more games developers before they form feminazi death squads! NightVis posted:I think what Al's getting at is that the upper to upper middle class white feminism that en vogue on the twitters at the moment has massive issues with class and race that are going unexamined entirely. Eyy why don't you just come out and say that instead of "Feminists will be the KKK of tomorrow! We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White murphyslaw fucked around with this message at 11:02 on Jun 27, 2015 |
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Jun 27, 2015 10:55
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murphyslaw posted:Quick, harass some more games developers before they form feminazi death squads! I still can't wrap my head around why Gamergate thinks this is a Good Idea that Accomplishes Stuff.
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Jun 27, 2015 10:57
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Al Cowens posted:Why do you hate women? because gone home was 7.5 at best
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Jun 27, 2015 10:58
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My understanding is that Depression Quest wasn't fun because it's about Depression and Depression isn't fun. That sounds like some silly artsy excuse because that's literally what it is? It's a silly little artsy game. I mean, sure, obviously it was easier to make a terrible game that no one would ever want to play than to make a good game that people would want to play, but artists do lots of crazy stuff that I don't really care about, like toilet sculptures or whatever. Art doesn't need to be good, and you don't need to care either.
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Jun 27, 2015 10:59
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Nobody should be harassed and nobody should be censored. People should be allowed to make games if they want to, even if they're bad art games that you don't like, and Valve was right to put Hatred back up on Steam.
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Jun 27, 2015 11:00
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circ dick soleil posted:Nobody should be harassed and nobody should be censored. People should be allowed to make games if they want to, even if they're bad art games that you don't like, and Valve was right to put Hatred back up on Steam. Hatred was such a schlock-filled cheesefest I'm not even remotely surprised the fervor about it died as quickly as it did. Unless they release some intentionally offensive DLC for it I doubt i'll play it again.
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Jun 27, 2015 11:04
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circ dick soleil posted:Is the "lolcows" thing something you made up, or is this a term that actually gets used on the internet? circ dick soleil posted:I'm of the mind that there are a lot of goons who are too timid to come out and say that this is what they're standing up against, and they'd rather let the charismatic young men over at 4chan speak for them. Exhibit A:  Exhibit B:  Exhibit C: NightVis posted:not readin but guessin: The Droid posted:When the people associated with the "indie gaming clique" tweet things like this when their art game that is boring and pretentious by art game standards fails and drives them out of business, is it hard to see why people might not like them? The Droid posted:If you push it in an inept, awkward, borderline insulting way that makes the end user realize that they spent $20 to press E to fold clothes and walk around a minimalist apartment whiling listening to a dull monologue then it doesn't matter what you're trying to push. circ dick soleil posted:It's a lovely 3rd-tier indie game studio that never once succeeded in turning a profit. http://patri-archie-comics.tumblr.com/image/110861668582  Al Cowens posted:tl;dr they made one of those really bad debateably not-actually-a-game games and it was not well received and nobody liked it and nobody bought it so they ragequit from the marketplace
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Jun 27, 2015 11:05
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Clarste posted:My understanding is that Depression Quest wasn't fun because it's about Depression and Depression isn't fun. That sounds like some silly artsy excuse because that's literally what it is? It's a silly little artsy game. I mean, sure, obviously it was easier to make a terrible game that no one would ever want to play than to make a good game that people would want to play, but artists do lots of crazy stuff that I don't really care about, like toilet sculptures or whatever. Art doesn't need to be good, and you don't need to care either. and my counterpoint is that the silly artsy zero effort game got the creator an outsized level of exposure, although half of that is because said creator was running in a "scene" with a lot of the same people who'd end up writing about her project. Meanwhile, small devs are going out of business all over the place because they can't get eyeballs on their products. I don't subscribe at all to the "sex for reviews" slander but she was definitely running in a clique, and that kind of incestuous relationship between artists and the people who cover them is bad enough, add to the fact that she's really not created anything of technical or artistic merit and I can see why projects like hers have become a folk devil to a lot of people.
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Jun 27, 2015 11:06
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NightVis posted:and my counterpoint is that the silly artsy zero effort game got the creator an outsized level of exposure, although half of that is because said creator was running in a "scene" with a lot of the same people who'd end up writing about her project. Meanwhile, small devs are going out of business all over the place because they can't get eyeballs on their products. I don't subscribe at all to the "sex for reviews" slander but she was definitely running in a clique, and that kind of incestuous relationship between artists and the people who cover them is bad enough, add to the fact that she's really not created anything of technical or artistic merit and I can see why projects like hers have become a folk devil to a lot of people.
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Jun 27, 2015 11:11
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NightVis posted:and my counterpoint is that the silly artsy zero effort game got the creator an outsized level of exposure, although half of that is because said creator was running in a "scene" with a lot of the same people who'd end up writing about her project. Meanwhile, small devs are going out of business all over the place because they can't get eyeballs on their products. I don't subscribe at all to the "sex for reviews" slander but she was definitely running in a clique, and that kind of incestuous relationship between artists and the people who cover them is bad enough, add to the fact that she's really not created anything of technical or artistic merit and I can see why projects like hers have become a folk devil to a lot of people. Gamergate is bad and full of people who call themselves things like "The Commissar of Gamergate". They make videos where they plan attack strategies and find ways to make people not say the things they are saying, or prevent games from getting made because they have the wrong message. I think this is wrong. Games should not be judged based on politics, they should be judged on gameplay. If a feminist game comes out and it's a good and fun game, then it is a good and fun game. If you're a game reviewer then you should give the game a good score based on its gameplay, and not give it a bad score because it's all about Andrea Dworkin or some other person whose opinions are not your own. Also price should be taken into consideration. If an otherwise okay game is free then that's really cool, because it's like free entertainment which is cool and everyone likes that. If the same okay game is priced at $60 then that sucks. Depression Quest was free which makes it cool. Even if you don't agree with the message and hate depressed people, it's still a game you can think about and think "I'm glad that game exists and it is free so if I feel like playing it I can, and if I don't feel like playing it I don't have to" so that is cool. Tale of Tales charged a lot of money for their games, and even had DLC. That is why they were bad. If all of their games were free then I would think they are good. Gamergate doesn't think so, and believes that even free games can be bad, which is not true (unless the games are computer viruses). Gamergate wants to stop the games and make it so there are less games, and no more free ones, when in fact the opposite should be true. There should be more games, especially the free ones, which are the best. circ dick soleil fucked around with this message at 11:16 on Jun 27, 2015 |
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Jun 27, 2015 11:11
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afeelgoodpoop posted:I'm not a very learned person and I've never been to college so most of the stuff I learn about feminism either comes from random blurbs or things like gamergate. Also I'm lazy. Do you think your understanding is warped at all by reading only anti-feminist explanations of feminism? (I'm assuming here that most of those random blurbs had an anti-feminist perspective as well)
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Jun 27, 2015 11:12
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The incestuous relationship between the media the AAA game industry seems like a much bigger problem to me, given that the journalists are literally being paid to advertise games. And quite frankly, this is totally unavoidable because otherwise the developers would have zero motivation to do all the press releases and review copy stuff that lets game journalists have a job at all. The industry literally exists to be the marketing arm of AAA companies. Yet for some reason they're complaining about one random indie developer who got lucky. As if that somehow matters in the slightest. Is Quinn even making money off that thing? Did whatever little coverage she got keep her afloat? Oh, apparently it's totally free and her ad earned her literally nothing. To say nothing of the fact that no-names getting popular is essentially random in any industry you care to look at. Clarste fucked around with this message at 11:16 on Jun 27, 2015 |
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Jun 27, 2015 11:14
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NightVis posted:That's a lot of what it came down to in my opinion. It wasn't so much that there was coverage of the art games or games that looked at social issues, it was more that they got ahead of themselves and didn't necessarily cover games, they covered gestures at games. Depression Quest and Tales of Tales games fit into that "hits all the right notes for this subset of the press, didn't bring anything to the table" box that people are getting irrationally angry at. It'd be fair to still call those games art, but they were bad art, and getting the level of promotion that a lot of small developers would give their right arm for does make the disconnect I've been talking about deeper. People naturally don't like shills. Someone telling you that (AAA release) is the greatest thing on the planet is grating enough. Seeing the gaming equivalent of a crust punk's garage band getting international press just makes the (already laughable) system look even more illegitimate. That's the thing. Art has to be innovative, not wholly derivative. DQ was just another really bad twine game. Sunset was a worse walking simulator than 'Dear Esther' or 'Gone Home'. Exactly. The 'Sunset' devs were pretty arrogant in this respect. They said they were making art, but it was really bad, overly pretentious art. Also, they pulled the 'they just didn't get it man' card when it sold like garbage (The message is that capitalism is bad). They also hired a PR firm with Leigh Alexander, who basically loathes games and doesn't understand them since she really doesn't want to be a games writer. So it misfired spectacularly. And it was very obviously clear they were trying to profit off of the success of 'Gone Home' without doing anything different. I feel like there has been a large push back against the highly cliquish indie scene as of late. It goes along with the interests of the journalists and even the indie scene themselves being completely out of balance with what people want to play. And for the reason you said, they've been shilling for them hard. circ dick soleil posted:Doesn't Gamergate hate that game based on the name of it alone? I honestly have no idea. There are probably some going 'why isn't it his story  ' But those people are morons. If anyone is doing that (someone probably is).
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Jun 27, 2015 11:15
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Cardboard Box A posted:
To be fair "has a gay in it" is the only reason gone home even shows up on the radar.
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Jun 27, 2015 11:17
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Cingulate posted:Do you think sexism has also played a role in why projects like hers have become a folk devil to a lot of people? What would you say is the respective importance of 1. ethics in video game journalism, 2. sexism? You can think Polygon/Kotaku/the Indie Gaming scene is poo poo and also know for a fact that Zoe Quinn was harassed because of sexism. These aren't mutually exclusive positions. You can also think a case study of the whole shitstorm is an example of an industry problem without subscribing to the conspiracy theories or wishing death on anyone. This isn't an "all or nothing" thing regardless of what the LF gravebirth that is internet politics tells you. circ dick soleil posted:Gamergate is bad and full of people who call themselves things like "The Commissar of Gamergate". They make videos where they plan attack strategies and find ways to make people not say the things they are saying, or prevent games from getting made because they have the wrong message. I think this is wrong. Games should not be judged based on politics, they should be judged on gameplay. If a feminist game comes out and it's a good and fun game, then it is a good and fun game. If you're a game reviewer then you should give the game a good score based on its gameplay, and not give it a bad score because it's all about Andrea Dworkin or some other person whose opinions are not your own. Also price should be taken into consideration. If an otherwise okay game is free then that's really cool, because it's like free entertainment which is cool and everyone likes that. If the same okay game is priced at $60 then that sucks. Depression Quest was free which makes it cool. Even if you don't agree with the message and hate depressed people, it's still a game you can think about and think "I'm glad that game exists and it is free so if I feel like playing it I can, and if I don't feel like playing it I don't have to" so that is cool. Tale of Tales charged a lot of money for their games, and even had DLC. That is why they were bad. If all of their games were free then I think they would be cool. Somewhere TW Dragon is eating cake mix and water on toast.
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Jun 27, 2015 11:20
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NightVis posted:This isn't an "all or nothing" thing
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Jun 27, 2015 11:22
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Dapper Dan posted:
unfortunately, that pushback is gamergate.
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Jun 27, 2015 11:22
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Dapper Dan posted:That's the thing. Art has to be innovative, not wholly derivative. DQ was just another really bad twine game. Sunset was a worse walking simulator than 'Dear Esther' or 'Gone Home'. Exactly. The 'Sunset' devs were pretty arrogant in this respect. They said they were making art, but it was really bad, overly pretentious art. Also, they pulled the 'they just didn't get it man' card when it sold like garbage (The message is that capitalism is bad). They also hired a PR firm with Leigh Alexander, who basically loathes games and doesn't understand them since she really doesn't want to be a games writer. So it misfired spectacularly. And it was very obviously clear they were trying to profit off of the success of 'Gone Home' without doing anything different. Depression Quest was a free game so it can only be good. The same is true for Dear Esther, when it was only a source mod. It was good because you could walk around and look at stuff, and it didn't cost you any money. When you were done looking at it you could uninstall it from your computer, and maybe reinstall it and play it again later. Another great source mod was Minerva. Saying that free games are bad is similar to fascism in many ways. Furthermore I don't understand your connection between Gone Home and Sunset. They're both very different games. circ dick soleil fucked around with this message at 11:25 on Jun 27, 2015 |
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Jun 27, 2015 11:23
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Cingulate posted:Which is why I've asked you for the proportional importance of sexism vs. genuine concern about ethics in video game journalism. If you're asking legitimately, a misogynist mob attacking someone because "a lady had sex" is definitely a bigger issue. does this mean that the industry problems are verboten from discussion? Because honestly that's the impression I've been getting from people I'd find myself agreeing with on any other subject.
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Jun 27, 2015 11:25
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You know I just had a thought in my head and if you know me at all you know that is a very bad and terrible thing. But I think it is sad and I am disappointed in myself and fellow goonkind that the most active thread in D&D right now is about loving gamergate while threads about things like feminism have historically been quarantined to E/N and lately not been made at all due to goon shenanigans. Why the hell is D&D open for threads about GG and generating 60 pages in less than 24 hours, but not threads about feminism is what I'm asking. And no I won't make that thread because I'm an idiot and not a woman (not that you can't make threads about feminism if you're an idiot and not a woman, traditionally those tend to be quite funny). Anyway all these incestuous relationships between "journos" in "games journalism" is just a microcosm of the poo poo that happens in actual journalism anyway. And games are an industry like any other, and the little man who just needs a little advertisement to get his project off the ground is always going to get squashed by things that are more shiny and interesting, be it quasi-games about depression or walking around in a house. If you want to end that dynamic you'll have to deal with the way the industry works as a whole, prohibit publishers from giving money for favourable reviews or advertisement space, that's just not going to happen ever today, and it has very little to do with feminism or cultural marxism or whatever. It's the money.
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Jun 27, 2015 11:27
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NightVis posted:If you're asking legitimately, a misogynist mob attacking someone because "a lady had sex" is definitely a bigger issue.
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Jun 27, 2015 11:28
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NightVis posted:does this mean that the industry problems are verboten from discussion? Because honestly that's the impression I've been getting from people I'd find myself agreeing with on any other subject. No but it would be cool to discuss them in a way that doesn't bring up Gamergate, and I'd be willing to wait until GG dies to do that.
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Jun 27, 2015 11:29
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Indie games are made by small teams of unproven creators, and most of them suck. There's been some effort to promote them lately because some people think indie games are a nifty idea. Sometimes they don't suck, and that's pretty cool. The vast bulk of industry journalism is still retweeting whatever morsels of information the AAA companies deign to feed us. The primary purpose of this is to generate pre-release hype and encourage preorders before the reviews come in. This isn't a problem at all.
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Jun 27, 2015 11:31
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