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Totalizator posted:Nobody wants to keep opposing ideologies out of games. People don't want ideologies injected INTO games to appease "critics" who don't buy and hate games and gamers. What the hell is this supposed to mean? Ideologies aren't injected into games, games are usually developed around ideologies. Hideo Kojima most likely didn't include all that poo poo about Nuclear Proliferation into the original MGS at the last minute. In fact, what many people want is a paradigm shift where we start including diversity from the ground floor instead of including minority characters as "tokenism"
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Jun 27, 2015 22:23
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i think i can't really track your argument because you haven't quite figured it out yet This sums up GG as a whole pretty well.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:23
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Totalizator posted:There is no conspiracy, there is a loud group of activists however. You're injecting the word conspiracy to make it sound less credible. These people are very much out in the open. And it's not about making games less fun it's about nitpicking and moaning about every single aspect of a game not in line with their political ideology. Which can make a game less fun in that it makes it more sanitized and boring. when has this ever happened? how are people complaining on the internet going to make games less fun? what is the causal mechanism by which social justice warriors will compel innocent game devs to do their bidding? why do you think that these critics don't buy games, and hate gamers, yet despite not buying games have enough political power to turn their criticisms into action that modifies game designs? none of it makes any sense to me at all
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Jun 27, 2015 22:23
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blackguy32 posted:What the hell is this supposed to mean? Ideologies aren't injected into games, games are usually developed around ideologies. Hideo Kojima most likely didn't include all that poo poo about Nuclear Proliferation into the original MGS at the last minute. That isn't Feminist, so it's completely natural and thus not objectionable. e: Totalizator posted:There is no conspiracy, there is a loud group of activists however. You're injecting the word conspiracy to make it sound less credible. These people are very much out in the open. And it's not about making games less fun it's about nitpicking and moaning about every single aspect of a game not in line with their political ideology. Which can make a game less fun in that it makes it more sanitized and boring. This is conspiracy thinking. The fault in the system lies in some destructive group of outsiders who must be removed for the system to function again. Games are "sanitized" and made "boring" by the forces of the market. GGers and the like hate this, so they blame a certain group because that is easier than acknowledging reality. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Jun 27, 2015 |
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Jun 27, 2015 22:24
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:That isn't Feminist, so it's completely natural and thus not objectionable. Oh, my mistake. George Miller didn't include all those women in Fury Road at the last minute. Am I doing it right, now?
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Jun 27, 2015 22:25
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Popular Thug Drink posted:when has this ever happened? how are people complaining on the internet going to make games less fun? what is the causal mechanism by which social justice warriors will compel innocent game devs to do their bidding? Twitter campaigns to make devs speaking out against them fired, or people who refuse to change content they find problematic fired. This has happened. In a more subtle way, lowering game scores for not being in line with their political beliefs.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:26
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blackguy32 posted:No, it's not. Anita Sarkeesian wouldn't have gotten nearly the amount of backlash that she got if that was the status quo. In fact, what we are seeing is a group of people reacting harshly to the fact that more and more women are getting into gaming and have the nerve to ask for better representation in games. I'd like to focus on "better representation" for a sec. Anita's series has mostly been about the negative tropes and stereotypes cast on lady characters in games. She's had two displaying "positive" female characters, one of which was a pixelated thing with no defining traits or personality, and the other being Jade from BG&E. I'm not sure what game devs can take away from the latter, and the former has basically rendered any character larger than a B cup as sexual fodder for misogynists. How can they improve representation when mostly every defining trait is a trope? To clarify, here are the stereotypes: 
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Jun 27, 2015 22:27
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Again, I'm cool with games being made that are about feminism, social justice, whatever the gently caress you like. When they go and try to make a DOOM dev fired because he laughed at them when they complained about DOOM 4 violence that's crossing the line to me. It happened like two days ago.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:27
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:This is a wholly meaningless statement. Games, as art, are inherently ideological products. A Guide To Ending Gamers: 11. We stop upholding “fun” as the universal, ultimate criterion for a game’s relevance.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:28
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blackguy32 posted:Oh, my mistake. George Miller didn't include all those women in Fury Road at the last minute. Am I doing it right, now? One of the most vocal and consistent figureheads of Gamergate apparently believes as much.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:28
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My possibly overcharitable interpretation of gamergate objection to "social criticism" or whatever it is that the left is doing to video games is that they're objecting specifically to the idea that already-established games should change to satisfy an audience that's been shouting at them for being Highly Problematic, and Furthermore . . . If you look at stuff that's gotten especial ire from them (beyond the ethics in journalism distraction) it's usually about IPs that suddenly shift their characters in a transparent attempt at diversity and inclusiveness, like Female Thor, or people calling for games like Witcher 3 to shoehorn in nonwhites into their world. I believe the highly charitable version of the GG stance on this is that people should make their own games that have diversity and whatever else makes them happy instead of trying to twist around already-existing ideas to satisfy an ever-shifting set of ideals of social progressiveness. Essentially, new comics should be made that feature female/black/black female/whatever leads instead of taking a male lead and genderbending or racebending the character into something else just to appeal to a subset of the left. This is an example that's years old now but when the Avatar cartoon series was being adapted into a live action movie all of the main characters were cast as white people instead of the diverse ethnicities they were in the cartoon. People were rightfully upset about that but you didn't see many people arguing that the characters *should* have been cast as white. It's basically the same thing here, it's nerds sperging out that Something Is Different, whether it's a botched adaption between mediums or it's a "re-envisioning" of an established character. I am absolutely sure that there are examples of ggers that can be found that directly contradict the above interpretation!
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Jun 27, 2015 22:30
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Totalizator posted:Twitter campaigns to make devs speaking out against them fired, or people who refuse to change content they find problematic fired. This has happened. In a more subtle way, lowering game scores for not being in line with their political beliefs. Docking reviews for dumb things is hardly the realm of reviewer politics- i've seen games criticized for really dumb reasons. How is docking say, Witcher 2 for gratuitous tits different from docking Witcher 2 for not having purely numbers based combat? All game reviews are pretty much game vs reviewer's preferences, so part of that's gonna be what you call "political."
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Jun 27, 2015 22:31
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They could have at least put it to a funky beat, they might be on par with this other example of neo-puritanical reactionary bullshit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2YgZX9Thm0
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Jun 27, 2015 22:31
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Totalizator posted:Again, I'm cool with games being made that are about feminism, social justice, whatever the gently caress you like. When they go and try to make a DOOM dev fired because he laughed at them when they complained about DOOM 4 violence that's crossing the line to me. It happened like two days ago. Yes, it is bad. Your fault lies in assuming that GG is the answer, and that Tumblr will "burn" and the evil will be dispelled. That is moronic. GGers and Tumblrites want the same thing: for their ingroup to be happy "in the system" Brannock posted:If you look at stuff that's gotten especial ire from them (beyond the ethics in journalism distraction) it's usually about IPs that suddenly shift their characters in a transparent attempt at diversity and inclusiveness, like Female Thor, or people calling for games like Witcher 3 to shoehorn in nonwhites into their world. I believe the highly charitable version of the GG stance on this is that people should make their own games that have diversity and whatever else makes them happy instead of trying to twist around already-existing ideas to satisfy an ever-shifting set of ideals of social progressiveness. Essentially, new comics should be made that feature female/black/black female/whatever leads instead of taking a male lead and genderbending or racebending the character into something else just to appeal to a subset of the left. This is because they want art to be a consumer product. e: INH5 posted:A Guide To Ending Gamers: 11. We stop upholding “fun” as the universal, ultimate criterion for a game’s relevance. This is a statement by critics. They have the right to free speech. There is no conspiracy to make games less fun. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Jun 27, 2015 |
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Jun 27, 2015 22:32
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Yes, it is bad. Having GG to protest these people is better then them doing as they like. If there ever is a #RationalPeopleAgainstCensoriousAssholes I'm joining that hashtag in a heartbeat
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Jun 27, 2015 22:35
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Totalizator posted:Again, I'm cool with games being made that are about feminism, social justice, whatever the gently caress you like. When they go and try to make a DOOM dev fired because he laughed at them when they complained about DOOM 4 violence that's crossing the line to me. It happened like two days ago. Here's the thing: This is not an issue with "social justice warriors", it's an issue with lovely labour laws and bosses more interested in relations than establishing good relationships with their employees. People will always bitch and moan, ultimately the power lies with the people in charge of who is hired and who is fired. The whole Protein World thing was actually a very good example of how to handle it: People complained, the boss said "gently caress that, this is a good employee, I'm not firing them" It ended there.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:36
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Popular Thug Drink posted:so some people said some mean things on twitter Hey congrats you figured out both sides of the issue!
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Jun 27, 2015 22:36
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:I'd like to focus on "better representation" for a sec. Anita's series has mostly been about the negative tropes and stereotypes cast on lady characters in games. She's had two displaying "positive" female characters, one of which was a pixelated thing with no defining traits or personality, and the other being Jade from BG&E. God, the way it just swerves into "FRIDGE STUFFING" pisses me off. Female character dies at any point? It's literally the same as when Hal Jordan's wife got jammed into the fridge for no loving reason. Female character experiences hardship at any point and needs help to get out of it? Damsel in distress! It's basically the same as Bowser jacking Peach at the start of every Mario game. Removing context from everything leads to some really loving boring stories.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:36
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Totalizator posted:Twitter campaigns to make devs speaking out against them fired, or people who refuse to change content they find problematic fired. This has happened. In a more subtle way, lowering game scores for not being in line with their political beliefs. isn't it possible that these people see what they sincerely believe to be a problem, and are taking steps to address it? i don't see how you can claim they're only doing what they do out of spite, to ruin gamer's good times i also don't see how a slightly lower game score matters at all. game scores are subjective values provided by a reviewer anyway, they are not objective metrics of the pure platonic goodness of a game. there is no such thing as an incorrect game score
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Jun 27, 2015 22:37
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i'm having trouble parsing this. Popular Thug Drink posted:i can't keep up with what you're trying to say! Popular Thug Drink posted:you're losing me here man, i just can't follow what it is you're mad about or why Popular Thug Drink posted:i think i can't really track your argument because you haven't quite figured it out yet Popular Thug Drink posted:when has this ever happened? For some reason I do not think your consistent and continual misunderstandings are sincere!
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Jun 27, 2015 22:37
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VJeff posted:God, the way it just swerves into "FRIDGE STUFFING" pisses me off. I remember when Dying Light removed a story segment from their major female character about getting acid splashed on her face while growing up in the Middle East. Because that was problematic.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:38
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Totalizator posted:Having GG to protest these people is better then them doing as they like. If there ever is a #RationalPeopleAgainstCensoriousAssholes I'm joining that hashtag in a heartbeat It is moronic because they want the exact same thing: safe consumer products. You confess that your ideology is wholly facile. You can make that hashtag yourself, but what you really want is a consumable identity, a group. You don't want to fix the system, you just want to dispel some evil outsiders because you think the blame doesn't lie with you.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:38
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thats loving bullshit dude and you know it
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Jun 27, 2015 22:38
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Y'know Popular Thug Drink if you're having so much trouble following along, maybe you can like, stop replying, since you're clearly not on the same page with the other guy here and aren't going to be any time soon.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:39
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Yes, Gamergate hates women, and they hate minority representaion in video games. While we are in the 100% objective truth hour, feminism also hates men and white people.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:39
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if you truly want to protect people's jobs and feel that gross injustices are being perpetuated in the labour market then there are many, many unions out there who desperately want your help and support. This also has the advantage of providing better employee benefits, like better health care, more lenient policies towards paternity/maternity leave and better wages that benefit everyone. It does have the significant disadvantage of not being able to stick it to SJWs though so I can see why it's not as appealing.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:39
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Brannock posted:If you look at stuff that's gotten especial ire from them (beyond the ethics in journalism distraction) it's usually about IPs that suddenly shift their characters in a transparent attempt at diversity and inclusiveness, like Female Thor, or people calling for games like Witcher 3 to shoehorn in nonwhites into their world. I believe the highly charitable version of the GG stance on this is that people should make their own games that have diversity and whatever else makes them happy instead of trying to twist around already-existing ideas to satisfy an ever-shifting set of ideals of social progressiveness. Essentially, new comics should be made that feature female/black/black female/whatever leads instead of taking a male lead and genderbending or racebending the character into something else just to appeal to a subset of the left. Not entirely related to what you said, but enough about the mechanics around gender/racechanging characters that I figure I should go ahead and toss it in: quote:A recent good and bad example of this would be Marvel's Ms. Marvel/Captain Marvel and DC's Power Girl (both of which considered some of the respective companies' more prolific examples of fanservice). Ms. Marvel was effectively promoted in-story to Captain Marvel, which just so happened to include a change to a more Shi'Arr (silly mohawk alien race) outfit which just so happened to be more conservative than her last, which in turn opened up the Ms. Marvel name for an arabic teen who was a fan of Ms. Marvel. Power Girl on the other hand lost her fanservice as a costume update for no in-universe reason (that i'm aware of, I read DC comics even less than I do Marvel comics, which is already little), which was seen as adversarial to her (pretty sad) fans. One change is "naturally" integrated into the story, while the other is seen as immediate and kneejerk changes from an "outsider". As a result Ms. Marvel and Captain Marvel are two of the more successful second-tier marvel series right now, while Power Girl reverted (as far as I'm aware?) to her old TnA costume. There can be a sort of nuance to these changes that manages to satisfy old fans and welcome new fans, as well as a bluntness that appears hostile to those most terrified of change. Games don't have the sort of constant changes-that-never-stick history that Comics do, but hte principles are the same. quote:This is an example that's years old now but when the Avatar cartoon series was being adapted into a live action movie all of the main characters were cast as white people instead of the diverse ethnicities they were in the cartoon. People were rightfully upset about that but you didn't see many people arguing that the characters *should* have been cast as white. It's basically the same thing here, it's nerds sperging out that Something Is Different, whether it's a botched adaption between mediums or it's a "re-envisioning" of an established character. I agree with the core idea here: There should be better representation naturally included in the story, instead of colorswapping an already established white character. The big problem with this is that many feel that we haven't even reached that initial bar of Tokenism, and it's not like you can suddenly demand that they scrap the game and make a new game with diverse characters instead. So most people are willing to accept this kind of change, in the hopes that writers and artists will become more accustomed to having diverse characters from the get-go. Of course, the other problem of not having many women/colored people in this nerdy industry makes it difficult for the creators to make more than palette-swapped characters, but that's a more complicated issue that is mired in our dysfunctional government and its broken/morally bankrupt policies towards colleges, wages, and anti-PC pandering. George Miller managed his way around this by hiring a Consultant (the author of the Vagina Monologues), but the Games Industry is not as liberal with artistic control as the Movie Industry; the idea of a lead designer being able to hire some random author and pay them would be absurd to most companies.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:39
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:This is a statement by critics. They have the right to free speech. It's not a conspiracy (a conspiracy is multiple people plotting to commit an illegal act, and nobody's done anything illegal), but there are people who have totally said that they want to make games less fun.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:39
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Brannock posted:For some reason I do not think your consistent and continual misunderstandings are sincere! We've gone from Hellthread and its Tezzors and Kinkshamers to this. I think it was a trade up, to be honest.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:39
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VJeff posted:Y'know Popular Thug Drink if you're having so much trouble following along, maybe you can like, stop replying, since you're clearly not on the same page with the other guy here and aren't going to be any time soon. His real problem is that Totalizator's argument is hollow, so pedantic arguments are the only way to fill out the space. e: INH5 posted:It's not a conspiracy (a conspiracy is multiple people plotting to commit an illegal act, and nobody's done anything illegal), but there are people who have totally said that they want to make games less fun. People have the right to free speech. There is no conspiracy to make you unhappy.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:40
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Ddraig posted:Here's the thing: Oh man I loved that controversy. Here's the thing though. All of this happened before - we had christian moralists protesting movies, music, everything. Concerned parents as far as the eye can see. Companies, and more importantly, people got sick of content being censored and sanitized for literal sheltered children and these protesters lost their political power and faded into obscurity. This spawned an alternative christian music and movie industry for them to enjoy. Companies will eventually grow a spine when they realize that a) these "activists" will never be happy and b) normal people don't care for it anymore and in fact some (like GG) hate it. What is sad that last time it was the right wing doing and now it's somehow the left.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:40
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INH5 posted:but there are people who have totally said that they want to make games less fun. were those people sincere? "i hate video games and i want to destroy them from within" is a very strange and unbelievable statement
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Jun 27, 2015 22:41
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:I remember when Dying Light removed a story segment from their major female character about getting acid splashed on her face while growing up in the Middle East. Because that was problematic. I remember they brought on a dude specifically to write characters and scenarios with a feminist progressive mindset in mind and he did, but because the female character needed to be helped out of some trouble once, Damsel in Distress trope, game's bad, gently caress you.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:41
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Popular Thug Drink posted:were those people sincere? "i hate video games and i want to destroy them from within" is a very strange and unbelievable statement Canadians.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:41
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Brannock posted:
Nope. What I've said is that rape victims should be allowed to say that they were raped. I'm also for the victims of any crime being able to say that they were victims of it. As a result of this, I'm for the right of people to claim they had something happen to them when they actually didn't, because that's free speech for ya. So it's totally possible and allowable for people to talk about being cheated and stuff like that in public and name the person, but I think it's very lovely behavior and leads to no good. I don't think cheating on someone is or should be a crime. of course, I don't really know what you mean by 'hearsay based character evaluation'. quote:Even if someone was legally innocent, they can still be put on trial in the court of public opinion, yes? This appears to be a truism, yes. quote:Here in the court of Twitter opinion we saw the alleged victim suffer repeated character attacks and victim-blaming. I don't think you'd see this to be desirable or in line with gender equality ideals. I don't know what you're talking about, though. Is this about the guy who wrote the article about the person cheating on him? I don't think that, in general, writing about people cheating on you is a good idea and will lead to bad poo poo. What was he a victim of? quote:Of course I'm not condoning any death threats that Quinn received as a reaction and I think it's pretty clear that the retaliation that Quinn and other female journalists and developers received (the ones that weren't fabricated, anyway) is blatantly misogynist and disproportionate to any actual actions they made. Cool. quote:Also lol at a bunch of self-proclaimed leftists repeatedly mocking a black person for being distrustful of white feminists and twisting his words to make him sound insane and paranoid when it's common knowledge that white Western feminism has had long-standing and well-documented issues with dealing with minorities and black people in particular. He claimed there was a conspiracy of white feminists who actually wanted to kill him and I thought he was Jon Pop for a few. He's not the hill to die on.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:41
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aww come on dude thats a huge lie and you know it
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Jun 27, 2015 22:42
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Totalizator posted:Oh man I loved that controversy. Here's the thing though. All of this happened before - we had christian moralists protesting movies, music, everything. Concerned parents as far as the eye can see. Companies, and more importantly, people got sick of content being censored and sanitized for literal sheltered children and these protesters lost their political power and faded into obscurity. This spawned an alternative christian music and movie industry for them to enjoy. just a few pages ago you were saying that anti-gg wasn't trying to ban anything, now you're saying they do want to ban things. which is it?
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Jun 27, 2015 22:42
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:I'd like to focus on "better representation" for a sec. Anita's series has mostly been about the negative tropes and stereotypes cast on lady characters in games. She's had two displaying "positive" female characters, one of which was a pixelated thing with no defining traits or personality, and the other being Jade from BG&E. I could have sworn that Anita really liked the Faith character from Mirror's Edge and also Chell from Portal despite her being a silent protagonist.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:42
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Popular Thug Drink posted:were those people sincere? "i hate video games and i want to destroy them from within" is a very strange and unbelievable statement We stop upholding “fun” as the universal, ultimate criterion for a game’s relevance
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Jun 27, 2015 22:42
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Jun 27, 2015 22:43
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