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stating a personal belief that fun is not the most important criteria for a game is not in any way remotely the same argument as banning fun in games. they are completely different statements.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:43
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blackguy32 posted:I could have sworn that Anita really liked the Faith character from Mirror's Edge and also Chell from Portal despite her being a silent protagonist. I think those are going to be in her other positive character videos. Also I don't really know why Chell is on that list since she has no personality and is basically a blank slate with the "right" character model.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:43
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Obdicut posted:What was he a victim of? By their (Zoe & Eron's) own standards, Eron was raped by Zoe. Note: It's not what the rest of society determines as rape mind you.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:45
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VJeff posted:I remember they brought on a dude specifically to write characters and scenarios with a feminist progressive mindset in mind and he did, but because the female character needed to be helped out of some trouble once, Damsel in Distress trope, game's bad, gently caress you. Actually, I think she criticized the game for depending on that stupid trope in the first place considering the character that gets captured and held hostage for you to save her was far more competent than your character in the first place. Also, it is important to note that she wasn't even referring to the character as a damsel in distress, but the actual plot device.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:46
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Totalizator posted:Oh man I loved that controversy. Here's the thing though. All of this happened before - we had christian moralists protesting movies, music, everything. Concerned parents as far as the eye can see. Companies, and more importantly, people got sick of content being censored and sanitized for literal sheltered children and these protesters lost their political power and faded into obscurity. This spawned an alternative christian music and movie industry for them to enjoy. You fail to realise what you're actually saying. "One day these companies will stop listening to these extremists, and I'll get products that will make me safe and happy." You in fact want the same thing as SJWs.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:47
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I don't think Jon McIntosh would describe himself as hating fun, but he is upset when a game glorifies people taking more risk than a sedentary American office worker, so draw your own conclusions.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:47
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Popular Thug Drink posted:stating a personal belief that fun is not the most important criteria for a game is not in any way remotely the same argument as banning fun in games. they are completely different statements. No, but it is pretty drat close to "we should make games less fun." Other things the guy wants the industry to do include "make fewer isolating games, including online multiplayer" and "make fewer linear games about one person saving the world," not because he wants more variety but because he thinks that those games create mean people. I suggest you read the whole thing, it's hilarious.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:47
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The thing is, this is true. Papers Please is a good example. It's not a fun game, but that's sort of the point. It's rote memorization, bureaucratic nonsense and pointless regulation. It is not a fun game to play, but it is a very good game that I don't regret playing, and I think it would have been a lesser experience if they didn't give you the tedious crap to do.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:48
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:I think those are going to be in her other positive character videos. Also I don't really know why Chell is on that list since she has no personality and is basically a blank slate with the "right" character model. She is somewhat of a blank slate, but I think it is overall because of how the actual game treats her as a character. There is no belittling of her gender or sexuality. I mean, if people can characterize Gordon Freeman, I see no reason why people can't characterize Chell based on context.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:48
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Unfunny Poster posted:By their (Zoe & Eron's) own standards, Eron was raped by Zoe. Okay this is the kind of statement that needs evidence. I also don't get this belief that the entire internet white-knights women constantly and that if the genders were swapped things would be wildly different. If someone wrote about their messy personal life, of either gender, I'd think it was stupid. Or rather, I do think it's stupid. There's no way for an outsider to really evaluate the ethical breaches of anyone involved, so what's the point? Ddraig posted:The thing is, this is true. Papers Please is a good example. It's not a fun game, but that's sort of the point. It's rote memorization, bureaucratic nonsense and pointless regulation. It is not a fun game to play, but it is a very good game that I don't regret playing, and I think it would have been a lesser experience if they didn't give you the tedious crap to do. One of the best games ever, Dwarf Fortress, is 'fun' rather than fun. As in everything you just spent two weeks working on dies because you pulled the wrong lever or some dwarf couldn't find a cobweb to make her legendary floodgate so she's clubbing people to death with a baby and your whole population turns on themselves like a morality tale.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:48
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blackguy32 posted:Actually, I think she criticized the game for depending on that stupid trope in the first place considering the character that gets captured and held hostage for you to save her was far more competent than your character in the first place. Zombie games aren't really all that good at the whole "story" thing.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:49
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VJeff posted:God, the way it just swerves into "FRIDGE STUFFING" pisses me off. It was Kyle Rayner not Hal Jordan
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Jun 27, 2015 22:49
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:This is a Fantastic Post. If I've learned anything from amusedly following Gamergate, it's that Twitter needs to be burned to the ground, and people who tweet more than a handful of times a day need to seek professional help.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:49
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Oh, come on! You can't honestly believe that! 
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Jun 27, 2015 22:49
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INH5 posted:No, but it is pretty drat close to "we should make games less fun." Other things the guy wants the industry to do include "make fewer isolating games, including online multiplayer" and "make fewer linear games about one person saving the world," not because he wants more variety but because he thinks that those games create mean people. I suggest you read the whole thing, it's hilarious. no, it isn't. one guy's opinions on fun in games as art does not in any way constitute an organize movement to make games less fun from all the examples and stuff posted about SJWs behaving badly it looks like there are maybe a dozen people that gamergate is actively fired up about
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Jun 27, 2015 22:50
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blackguy32 posted:She is somewhat of a blank slate, but I think it is overall because of how the actual game treats her as a character. There is no belittling of her gender or sexuality. I mean, if people can characterize Gordon Freeman, I see no reason why people can't characterize Chell based on context. Thats also because every other character is a literal robot. I think she said something about Catwoman getting insulted by thugs in Arkham City and using words like "bitch" and sexualized slurs were terrible and unnecessary.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:51
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:I think those are going to be in her other positive character videos. Also I don't really know why Chell is on that list since she has no personality and is basically a blank slate with the "right" character model. This is true of the majority of male characters as well. The reason it's progressive is because it doesn't default to assuming the player inserting themselves into the game is male; the blank state should be available to everyone, otherwise it's a blank slate with exceptions. It's similar to how Rust randomizes your character's skin color on startup and locks it to your account; in an ideal future race and gender aren't held as barriers to immersion, and a component of that is not mandating that every blank player character must be a white guy. Obdicut posted:Okay this is the kind of statement that needs evidence. Zoe and Eron had a mutual (and absurd) agreement that cheating is rape. Gamergate posters have been hawking "Zoe raped Eron" for a while now as a result.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:51
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:You fail to realise what you're actually saying. You missed the part where I implied the "SJW" should support and make their own entertainment rather then being a hostile parasite on the entertainment of others. They do not wish for inclusion, they want gamers out of gaming so they can take it over and rebuild it as a tool for social justice. And for once I will source my opinion. Here: 'Gamers' are over. Exclusive[2] http://archive.today/l1kTW Leigh Alexander Gamasutra Aug 28, 10:00am An awful week to care about video games[3] http://archive.today/rkvO8 Chris Plante Polygon Aug 28, 1:21pm The death of the “gamers” and the women who “killed” them[4] https://archive.today/ZyLdw Casey Johnson Ars Technica Aug 28, 5:00pm A Guide to Ending "Gamers"[5] http://archive.today/2t93l Devin Wilson Gamasutra Aug 28, 7:57 pm We Might Be Witnessing The 'Death of An Identity'[6] https://archive.today/ht088 Luke Plunkett Kotaku Aug 28, 8:00pm Gaming Is Leaving “Gamers” Behind[7] http://archive.today/jVqJ8 Joseph Bernstein Buzzfeed Aug 28, 8:29 pm Sexism, Misogyny, and online attacks: It's a horrible time to consider yourself a gamer[8] https://archive.today/HkPHc Patrick O'Rourke Financial Post Aug 28, 9:33pm It's Dangerous to Go Alone: Why Are Gamers So Angry?[9] http://archive.today/9NxHy Arthur Chu The Daily Beast Aug 28, time unknown The End of Gamers[10] https://archive.today/L4vJG Dan Golding Tumblr Aug 28, time unknown This guy's embarassing relationship drama is killing the 'gamer' identity[11] https://archive.today/L4n6p Mike Pearl Vice Aug 29, time unknown Dr. Nerdlove https://archive.today/UwiC2 August 29, 2014 Eurogamer https://archive.today/CTpxW Dan Whitehead Saturday, 30 August 2014 Destructoid Blog https://archive.today/tIS6L Fenriff 12:09 PM on 08.28.2014 GamesONnet https://archive.today/oD3QV Tim Colwill August 29, 2014 1:37 pm Gamespot https://archive.today/GWHD7 Emanuel Maiberg Gamasutra https://archive.today/h78pg#selection-10.13-2948.5 September 1, 2014 Kris Ligman The Week https://archive.today/bnWvI The Guardian https://archive.today/DGj1S Jenn Frank Monday 1 September 2014 Gameranx https://archive.today/yomy2 Stephen Daly 3rd Sep, 2014 Gamasutra https://archive.today/W0Jha Tadhg Kelly 08/31/14 11:57:00 am Destructoid https://archive.today/KXpV4 https://archive.today/VFYOb Jonathan Holmes 7:30 PM 08.31.2014 Rock, Paper, Shotgun https://archive.today/RXjWz Graham Smith September 1st, 2014 at 7:00 pm Tumblr https://archive.today/CyAUk Paste https://archive.today/x921m Garrett Martin September 4, 2014 THE INDEPENDENT https://archive.today/c6svO TOM MENDELSOHN Friday 5 September 2014 Vox https://archive.today/z4i22 Todd VanDerWerff September 6, 2014, 2:45 p.m. ET Gamasutra https://archive.today/vT7vp Greg Costikyan on 09/07/14 12:55:00 am Examiner https://archive.today/YRH03 Leo Reyna September 6, 2014 The Mary Sue https://archive.today/11OEl Victoria McNally Thursday August 28th 2014 1:30 pm Uproxx https://archive.today/XBvF8 DAN SEITZ / 09.02.14 On the Media https://archive.today/K13nk Alex Goldman Friday, September 05, 2014 - 10:53 AM ArsTechnica https://archive.today/SadEJ Casey Johnston - Sept 9 2014, 11:20pm MST The New Yorker https://archive.today/nb14y SIMON PARKIN Wired https://archive.today/LTFr9 10 SEPTEMBER 14 CASEY JOHNSTON
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Jun 27, 2015 22:51
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blackguy32 posted:She is somewhat of a blank slate, but I think it is overall because of how the actual game treats her as a character. There is no belittling of her gender or sexuality. I mean, if people can characterize Gordon Freeman, I see no reason why people can't characterize Chell based on context. It's arguably a positive step that every "blank slate" character doesn't need to be a white male, since the usual status quo is that characters are white men by default and any deviation from this needs justified.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:51
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Totalizator posted:You missed the part where I implied the "SJW" should support and make their own entertainment rather then being a hostile parasite on the entertainment of others. They do not wish for inclusion, they want gamers out of gaming so they can take it over and rebuild it as a tool for social justice. And for once I will source my opinion. Here: i clicked a handful of these links and none of them appear to call for the destruction of gamers and the retooling of video games as a force for social justice. which one in particular should i click?
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Jun 27, 2015 22:52
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i clicked a handful of these links and none of them appear to call for the destruction of gamers and the retooling of video games as a force for social justice. which one in particular should i click? You just haven't got the right approach https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8lCWUxjpxU
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Jun 27, 2015 22:54
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:Zombie games aren't really all that good at the whole "story" thing. This is true, but I don't see how that detracts from her point. VJeff posted:God, the way it just swerves into "FRIDGE STUFFING" pisses me off. The whole reason Jade is kidnapped is simply to serve as fuel for you to hate Rais even more. It really could have been avoided completely and not changed the story at all.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:54
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Neurolimal posted:This is true of the majority of male characters as well. The reason it's progressive is because it doesn't default to assuming the player inserting themselves into the game is male; the blank state should be available to everyone, otherwise it's a blank slate with exceptions. Immersion type games should always use body sliders. It's just weird to me that Chell and the pixel thing from Sword and Sworcery are considered progressive positive examples when their defining traits are "has no defining traits other than character model." You didn't even know Chell's name or that she was a girl until the first game was almost over.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:54
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Totalizator posted:You missed the part where I implied the "SJW" should support and make their own entertainment rather then being a hostile parasite on the entertainment of others. They do not wish for inclusion, they want gamers out of gaming so they can take it over and rebuild it as a tool for social justice. And for once I will source my opinion. Here: I picked this one at random and it isn't saying what you claim. https://archive.is/KXpV4 So.. where'd you get that list?
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Jun 27, 2015 22:55
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Obdicut posted:Okay this is the kind of statement that needs evidence. It's from the original info dump the ex posted. It more or less surrounded the idea that, if you cheat on your partner without telling them and then slept with them as well it constituted "rape" in their minds. Which, given her own admission, she did.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:55
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Obdicut posted:Nope. What I've said is that rape victims should be allowed to say that they were raped. I'm also for the victims of any crime being able to say that they were victims of it. As a result of this, I'm for the right of people to claim they had something happen to them when they actually didn't, because that's free speech for ya. So it's totally possible and allowable for people to talk about being cheated and stuff like that in public and name the person, but I think it's very lovely behavior and leads to no good. I don't think cheating on someone is or should be a crime. I detect a lot of dodging and dismissal in this post! If we take Gjoni's initial post to be factual (and frankly I see little evidence that it isn't and no one directly involved in their initial shared social circle has denied any of the claims) then Quinn was emotionally abusive towards Gjoni as well as gaslighting him. The fact that you minimize it as "cheating" reveals much about your judgement of Gjoni. Of course any sane, reasonable person would agree with you that cheating should not be a crime. Very deftly constructed. I phrased "hearsay based character evaluation" poorly, I was trying to recall your exact wording of getting testimony about someone else's character via a personal acquaintance or friend and giving that testimony higher credence. This is clearly how human beings function in a social environment, which you went to great lengths to explain to people who were emotionally invested in disagreeing against you. You may remember that discussion. I detect, once again, insincere pretensions of not knowing what's being talked about! There's also that minimization of it as "cheating" (which, incidentally, gives the lie to the idea that you don't know what's being discussed) as well as direct victim blaming of Gjoni. Good job Obdicut! Cool. Obdicut posted:I also don't get this belief that the entire internet white-knights women constantly and that if the genders were swapped things would be wildly different. If someone wrote about their messy personal life, of either gender, I'd think it was stupid. Or rather, I do think it's stupid. There's no way for an outsider to really evaluate the ethical breaches of anyone involved, so what's the point? Fortunately for us I was not talking about The Entire Internet, but specifically a subset of people who really ought to know better considering that this group has massive overlap with an ideology that recognizes the many problems that someone faces when they come forward about their own victimization. Also I want to point out once again the minimization of Gjoni's claims as a "messy personal life".
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Jun 27, 2015 22:55
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Obdicut posted:I picked this one at random and it isn't saying what you claim. I just googled for a full list of the "gamers are dead" articles  .
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Jun 27, 2015 22:56
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:You didn't even know Chell's name or that she was a girl until the first game was almost over. that's kind of the point. the default blank slate shouldn't be a white man 
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Jun 27, 2015 22:56
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:Thats also because every other character is a literal robot. I think she said something about Catwoman getting insulted by thugs in Arkham City and using words like "bitch" and sexualized slurs were terrible and unnecessary. Except, she is right? Even goons in the Arkham City thread noted almost every taunt from the thugs were about how they wanted to rape her.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:56
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Popular Thug Drink posted:that's kind of the point. the default blank slate shouldn't be a white man I could have sworn that there is a mirror near the beginning of the game.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:57
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Totalizator posted:I just googled for a full list of the "gamers are dead" articles none of these articles talk about destroying gamers forever. very few of them discuss gamer identity and some aspects of it. none of the links you posted support your argument that SJWs are attempting a palace coup of gamers blackguy32 posted:I could have sworn that there is a mirror near the beginning of the game. i don't think so, you usually see the player model for the first time while dicking around with portals portal or portal 2?
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Jun 27, 2015 22:57
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blackguy32 posted:Except, she is right? Even goons in the Arkham City thread noted almost every taunt from the thugs were about how they wanted to rape her. Bad people in a video game say bad things to a character!? Sound the oppression alarm!!!
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Jun 27, 2015 22:57
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blackguy32 posted:I could have sworn that there is a mirror near the beginning of the game. There's a mirror in literally the starting room.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:58
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blackguy32 posted:I could have sworn that there is a mirror near the beginning of the game. I believe it's broken. It's been a while since I've played either Portal game but I seem to remember the only glimpses you got of your character were via the portals themselves.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:58
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Popular Thug Drink posted:that's kind of the point. the default blank slate shouldn't be a white man And I'm fine with that. I merely assumed Anita would pick someone with character depth. Considering game writing overall however, I can see how that'd be hard to do. blackguy32 posted:Except, she is right? Even goons in the Arkham City thread noted almost every taunt from the thugs were about how they wanted to rape her. Yeah, it was bad writing. I guess nameless thugs are pretty dim, too.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:58
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Zerilan posted:There's a mirror in literally the starting room. Hah, there was? Was it on the xbox 360 version? I only noticed when I played around with portal hopping.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:59
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Popular Thug Drink posted:none of these articles talk about destroying gamers forever. very few of them discuss gamer identity and some aspects of it. none of the links you posted support your argument that SJWs are attempting a palace coup of gamers I know nuance isn't your strong point, but if these articles claim "gamers are dead" and should be abandoned, and are largely written by left leaning journalists sympathetic to the tumblr outrage brigade... who do you think they want games be FOR?
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Jun 27, 2015 22:59
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Zoe Quinn was a terrible partner to Eron Gjoni, this is true. It's also an accepted belief that Zoe Quinn is mentally ill or mentally unstable (and not in an internet "lol i dont like this person and they are insane" way), so there's some justification for that, but I still don't fault Eron Gjoni for leaving an abusive and unfaithful relationship. The point where most people willing to interact with all this Gamergate tripe deviate is what he did after the breakup, which was morally questionable and kicked off an absurd hate campaign. It's been suggested that he was given terrible advice on what to do, but in the end he made the call on what should be done.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:59
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There's a group of people, journalists, bloggers, indy gamedev, twitter people who hate everything modern AAA gaming stand for but in the stupidest way possible. They want games where gameplay is optional, if there's combat it should be skippable, games also should be less violent and of course, representation means games should go through a huge checklist of token features. They honestly believe gamers fully consist of loud "dudebros", they think the CoD gamer is the normal and standard. So when they proclaimed that "gamers are dead" they meant an already false cliche is not true anymore.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:59
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All this means is "we are going to think about things beside whether we enjoyed the game"
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Jun 27, 2015 23:00
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