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InsanityIsCrazy posted:Immersion type games should always use body sliders. It's just weird to me that Chell and the pixel thing from Sword and Sworcery are considered progressive positive examples when their defining traits are "has no defining traits other than character model." You didn't even know Chell's name or that she was a girl until the first game was almost over. I guess I can see where it comes from. When all of your games are of white men doing stuff with minorities relegated to stereotypes, it becomes refreshing when you actually get a game with a main protagonist that is a minority and isn't a stereotype. I think that is partially why I like Freedom Cry so much. Identity tends to be very important. I mean look at all the people flipping their poo poo about Peter Parker being replaced as Spider man and Michael Jordan playing as the Human torch.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:01
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Totalizator posted:I know nuance isn't your strong point, but if these articles claim "gamers are dead" and should be abandoned, and are largely written by left leaning journalists sympathetic to the tumblr outrage brigade... who do you think they want games be FOR? you don't have to be a self identified gamer to enjoy playing video games. there's no identity test at the store what very few of these articles are talking about is how some white men who identify as gamers have toxic attitudes towards women. factually reporting on what those men say and do is not a call to end gamers forever, nor are the authors of those articles implicitly left wing social justice warriors this all seems like deeply conspiratorial and persecutional thinking that is overall just a very ugly reaction to some pretty basic criticism
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Jun 27, 2015 23:02
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Totalizator posted:I know nuance isn't your strong point, but if these articles claim "gamers are dead" and should be abandoned, and are largely written by left leaning journalists sympathetic to the tumblr outrage brigade... who do you think they want games be FOR? They want them to be for everyone, not just gamers?
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Jun 27, 2015 23:02
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:Hah, there was? Was it on the xbox 360 version? I only noticed when I played around with portal hopping. After checking, I'm misremembering that there was a mirror. It's that the very first portal that opens to let you out of the room lets you see your character if you look through it.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:02
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Literally The Worst posted:It was Kyle Rayner not Hal Jordan Trap sprung, get this nerd.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:02
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Ddraig posted:You just haven't got the right approach https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptC4iD_n8vA Brannock posted:I detect a lot of dodging and dismissal in this post! If we take Gjoni's initial post to be factual (and frankly I see little evidence that it isn't and no one directly involved in their initial shared social circle has denied any of the claims) then Quinn was emotionally abusive towards Gjoni as well as gaslighting him. The fact that you minimize it as "cheating" reveals much about your judgement of Gjoni. Of course any sane, reasonable person would agree with you that cheating should not be a crime. Very deftly constructed. I don't think it's a good idea to take any posts about social drama of others at face value. I don't know what the hell happened in their relationship because it's not the kind of thing I really pay attention to. If she was emotionally abusive, that's lovely. Other people in this thread said it was about cheating, that's why i said it was about cheating. As I said before, when GG has come up in my real life people have barely spent any time talking about it except to say "Holy poo poo misogynists on the rampage are embarrassing for gamers" for the most part. quote:I phrased "hearsay based character evaluation" poorly, I was trying to recall your exact wording of getting testimony about someone else's character via a personal acquaintance or friend and giving that testimony higher credence. This is clearly how human beings function in a social environment, which you went to great lengths to explain to people who were emotionally invested in disagreeing against you. You may remember that discussion. Yeah, I said that if you know someone, you trust what they say based on your evaluation of them. I know no one involved in this whole mess, so I have no reason to believe anything in particular. I can easily believe people were lovely to each other. quote:I detect, once again, insincere pretensions of not knowing what's being talked about! There's also that minimization of it as "cheating" (which, incidentally, gives the lie to the idea that you don't know what's being discussed) as well as direct victim blaming of Gjoni. Good job Obdicut! I sincerely don't actually know anything about whatever started off this whole gamergate thing, except that people were saying it involved someone cheating on someone. Really, that's the extent of my knowledge. Not sure why you're convinced I know more and am pretending otherwise. quote:Fortunately for us I was not talking about The Entire Internet, but specifically a subset of people who really ought to know better considering that this group has massive overlap with an ideology that recognizes the many problems that someone faces when they come forward about their own victimization. Also I want to point out once again the minimization of Gjoni's claims as a "messy personal life". Okay, I'll probably regret this, but what are Gjoni's claims and what's your source for saying that Quinn's behavior would be rape according to her?
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Jun 27, 2015 23:02
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The idea of certain things not being held by a small elite and being the property of everyone to enjoy equally is, amazingly, a very left-leaning stance. It's also not particularly puritan, neo or otherwise.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:03
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Neurolimal posted:Zoe Quinn was a terrible partner to Eron Gjoni, this is true. It's also an accepted belief that Zoe Quinn is mentally ill or mentally unstable (and not in an internet "lol i dont like this person and they are insane" way), so there's some justification for that, but I still don't fault Eron Gjoni for leaving an abusive and unfaithful relationship. The point where most people willing to interact with all this Gamergate tripe deviate is what he did after the breakup, which was morally questionable and kicked off an absurd hate campaign. This is a good summary.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:03
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blackguy32 posted:I guess I can see where it comes from. When all of your games are of white men doing stuff with minorities relegated to stereotypes, it becomes refreshing when you actually get a game with a main protagonist that is a minority and isn't a stereotype. I wish she'd do one on Amanda Ripley, but she's a Last Survivor trope so 
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Jun 27, 2015 23:04
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Ddraig posted:They want them to be for everyone, not just gamers? Games are for everyone already. If a woman picks up a controller it's not going to electrocute her then display a message telling her to get back into the kitchen.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:04
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Ddraig posted:They want them to be for everyone, not just gamers? They want to achieve this in the most fucktarded way possible.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:04
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Ddraig posted:They want them to be for everyone, not just gamers? Hatred is a game for everyone.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:04
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Brannock posted:This is a good summary. Weirdly, it sounds a lot like what I said, yet you reacted to what I said with apoplexy.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:05
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Totalizator posted:Bad people in a video game say bad things to a character!? Sound the oppression alarm!!! Yet, they say none of those things to Batman or Robin. Just because you can find some in universe way of forgiving it doesn't mean it isn't boneheadingly stupid. I mean, why can't it just be about them beating the poo poo out of Catwoman like it is for them?
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Jun 27, 2015 23:05
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you people are out of you g-d darned minds
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Jun 27, 2015 23:05
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blackguy32 posted:Yet, they say none of those things to Batman or Robin. Just because you can find some in universe way of forgiving it doesn't mean it isn't boneheadingly stupid. I mean, why can't it just be about them beating the poo poo out of Catwoman like it is for them? Hint: thugs in real life tend to be boneheaded sexists who probably at least wouldn't admit having a gay boner for Batman.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:06
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Totalizator posted:Games are for everyone already. If a woman picks up a controller it's not going to electrocute her then display a message telling her to get back into the kitchen. if games are already for everyone, then why are the SJWs trying to make games for everyone and not just Gamers?
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Jun 27, 2015 23:06
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blackguy32 posted:Yet, they say none of those things to Batman or Robin. Just because you can find some in universe way of forgiving it doesn't mean it isn't boneheadingly stupid. I mean, why can't it just be about them beating the poo poo out of Catwoman like it is for them? We need to open people's eyes about how sexism exists. Wait, there's a video game where sexism is portrayed by negative characters?! WE CANNOT HAVE THAT!
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Jun 27, 2015 23:07
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Totalizator posted:Hint: thugs in real life tend to be boneheaded sexists who probably at least wouldn't admit having a gay boner for Batman. Good thing it's not real life and a world where a man dresses up as a giant bat to fight a homicidal clown and his juggalo girlfriend, then, isn't it?
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Jun 27, 2015 23:07
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blackguy32 posted:Yet, they say none of those things to Batman or Robin. Just because you can find some in universe way of forgiving it doesn't mean it isn't boneheadingly stupid. I mean, why can't it just be about them beating the poo poo out of Catwoman like it is for them? They could've cribbed off Shadow of Mordor. I recall the orcs using rapey language around the protagonist.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:07
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Popular Thug Drink posted:if games are already for everyone, then why are the SJWs trying to make games for everyone and not just Gamers? That's a good loving question. And this is why we need Gamergate
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Jun 27, 2015 23:08
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Popular Thug Drink posted:if games are already for everyone, then why are the SJWs trying to make games for everyone and not just Gamers? They're trying to sanitize and tokenize games because clearly the one thing stopping women from playing call of duty is not being able to play as a fat girl.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:08
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Bholder posted:We need to open people's eyes about how sexism exists. Is sexism an integral aspect of the game? Is the game attempting to make a statement about sexism? Does this impact the core goal of the game? What is the goal of playing Batman and Robin? Is it a power fantasy? Are power fantasies realistic? Why does Catwoman's game have to be realistic?
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Jun 27, 2015 23:09
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Totalizator posted:They're trying to sanitize and tokenize games because clearly the one thing stopping women from playing call of duty is not being able to play as a fat girl. i thought you said they weren't trying to sanitize anything, they were trying to put pressure on AAA studios to make sure these games don't get made at all or get made without as much objective fun
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Jun 27, 2015 23:09
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Totalizator posted:Games are for everyone already. If a woman picks up a controller it's not going to electrocute her then display a message telling her to get back into the kitchen. This is pretty drat close. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SLDgPbjp0M
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Jun 27, 2015 23:10
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Totalizator posted:They're trying to sanitize and tokenize games because clearly the one thing stopping women from playing call of duty is not being able to play as a fat girl. I don't think you really understand the concept of sanitizing something. When you try to add more stuff to something that's generally the opposite. If I want to sanitize my work bench, I do not generally wish to upend a box of random stuff onto it to facilitate that process.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:10
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i thought you said they weren't trying to sanitize anything, they were trying to put pressure on AAA studios to make sure these games don't get made at all or get made without as much objective fun I never said that and definitely never used the words "objective fun".
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Jun 27, 2015 23:11
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blackguy32 posted:This is pretty drat close. That's a lot of dropped frames.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:11
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Obdicut posted:I sincerely don't actually know anything about whatever started off this whole gamergate thing, except that people were saying it involved someone cheating on someone. Really, that's the extent of my knowledge. Not sure why you're convinced I know more and am pretending otherwise. Thanks to certain other posters I'm overskeptical of rhetorically-useful claims of ignorance but I suppose I was mistaken here. Sorry for the accusation. I believe you. quote:Okay, I'll probably regret this, but what are Gjoni's claims and what's your source for saying that Quinn's behavior would be rape according to her? This is someone who was a direct witness to the initial "Zoepost" talking about the matter: https://medium.com/@srachel_m/gamergate-launched-in-my-apartment-and-internet-im-sorry-not-that-sorry-13e5650fd172 If you want you can go google for Gjoni's callout of Quinn and her actions using chatlogs to source his claims. It's extremely long and very tedious to read through, which is why I'm not surprised that many people are just running off summaries of it obtained from other people. I don't blame them, really. The whole Gjoni/Quinn thing is frankly absurd. Essentially the two agreed on some extremely restrictive definitions of Relationship Misconduct and Rape. One in particular involved something like "Having sex with someone else under false pretenses qualifies as rape" with the specific case of Quinn saying something along the lines of "If you had sex with someone else during our time apart and lied to me about it, it would be raping me, because if I knew you did I wouldn't be having sex with you" to Gjoni and him confirming that he hadn't had sex with anyone else. During this period Quinn was repeatedly cheating on Gjoni with multiple people and not only lying about it, but specifically denying claims that she was doing so when Gjoni got suspicious about it and asked her directly about what she was doing. This doesn't get into the other stuff that Quinn was emotionally pressuring Gjoni into doing and agreeing with, while taking advantage of his presence as a boyfriend repeatedly to get favors from him and the constant fights that they were having. It's been a year since I actually read the original callout so my memory of it is becoming too fuzzy to make absolute claims on it, but I do remember being upset with the initial reaction of many feminists towards Gjoni because so many of them were shaming him for being "weak enough" to even make the claims of being emotionally abused and not Manly Enough etc etc.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:11
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Totalizator posted:I never said that and definitely never used the words "objective fun". you've said many different things in this thread Totalizator posted:So why do these critics want to alter the design and creative choices other people make that they don't like, rather then promoting or funding games that are being made they do like? This entire thing is trying to shame people for enjoying things a small subset of left wing puritans don't approve of and trying to coerce developers to bend to the sensibilities of a loud minority, over the heads of people who like things as they are.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:11
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Ddraig posted:I don't think you really understand the concept of sanitizing something. "I want every enemy to react to a character the same regardless of their gender" "I don't want sexist things being said by villains to women" Totalizator fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Jun 27, 2015 |
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Jun 27, 2015 23:11
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Popular Thug Drink posted:you've said many different things in this thread And you continually try to find holes in them for the sake of trying to make me slip up. The words fun or objective fun don't appear in this sentence.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:13
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blackguy32 posted:This is pretty drat close. Some silver lining: After this tourney the winner (one of the winners?) donated their earnings to the people who were harassed, and basically took a dump on Aris (dude doing the harassing). Most fighting game fans thought (or already thought) Aris was a douchebag, though it cannot be denied that there were people defending him and demanding that people not harm "fighting game culture". It's good that the fighting game community went down hard on him, but the fighting game community is also notoriously more diverse than many other game communities, and the fact that stuff like this still occurs suggests that there is still progress to be made. When people criticize gaming communities they are usually talking about people like Aris, who are not as uncommon as people would like to believe.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:13
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:They could've cribbed off Shadow of Mordor. I recall the orcs using rapey language around the protagonist. Except that Shadow of Mordor is rated M, whereas Arkham City is rated T. I think that may be the root of the thing: it's just easier to write PG rated catcalls than it is to write PG rated disparagements of masculinity that don't sound completely lame. But I think it's still stupid to complain about bad guys acting like bad guys.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:13
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Bholder posted:We need to open people's eyes about how sexism exists. Wait, there is a game where sexism is propagated by the developers because they want to constantly remind you that Catwoman is a female? I mean why does being a female have to go straight to rape?
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Jun 27, 2015 23:14
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Totalizator posted:And you continually try to find holes in them for the sake of trying to make me slip up. i'm just trying to figure out why you think there are people out there who want to destroy gamers
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Jun 27, 2015 23:15
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Totalizator posted:"I want every enemy to react to a character the same regardless of their gender" "I don't want sexist things being sad by villains to women" Hint: These two things are not mutually exclusive. I get the feeling that the Arkham City thing would not have been nearly as controversial if the sexual assault riddled language was applied equally to both characters. Or neither. Applying it to one and not the other is a "double standard" and it's generally something that is not considered a good thing. One standard will do just fine.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:15
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Hiya just chiming in to mention this is a well-established point in the world of boardgames and tabletop RPGs: "fun" as a criterion is a serious warning sign in either development or review. It's Just Fun is a completely meaningless statement that can be used to defend absolutely anything, ever, because with the right group of friends anything up to and including Let's All Kick Each Other In The Nuts Because We're Bored can be fun. saying your game's top priority is Fun is up there with the much-maligned Dragon Age 2 Button Awesome Connection: sounds neat, means jack poo poo. It's Just Fun as the universal, ultimate criteria for a game's relevance means that no game will ever succeed, and no game will ever fail, because I will guarantee you there is no game so utterly broken some people didn't have fun with it and no game so fantastic some people didn't say 'yeah no gently caress this trash.' Anyway happy twitter drama to y'all
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Jun 27, 2015 23:16
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Neurolimal posted:Some silver lining: After this tourney the winner (one of the winners?) donated their earnings to the people who were harassed, and basically took a dump on Aris (dude doing the harassing). Most fighting game fans thought (or already thought) Aris was a douchebag, though it cannot be denied that there were people defending him and demanding that people not harm "fighting game culture". The fighting game community has really evolved in the last few years. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Sfs9h3bIDg
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Jun 27, 2015 23:16
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Ddraig posted:Hint: These two things are not mutually exclusive. I get the feeling that the Arkham City thing would not have been nearly as controversial if the sexual assault riddled language was applied equally to both characters. Or neither. Applying it to one and not the other is a "double standard" and it's generally something that is not considered a good thing. One standard will do just fine. So it's not a problem of diversity in characters but rather a problem of diversity in villains. I applaud and agree with the stance there should be more bisexual and gay villains in games but this run the risk of people complaining about gay people being portrayed as evil (and in this case, evil rapists)
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Jun 27, 2015 23:17
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