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INH5 posted:But I think it's still stupid to complain about bad guys acting like bad guys. Thats kinda how I see it. It'd be like complaining about facehuggers sticking their literal dicks in your mouth.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:17
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Obdicut posted:Weirdly, it sounds a lot like what I said, yet you reacted to what I said with apoplexy. Man, I don't know how you can possibly read my posts in this thread as apoplectic. Neurolimal's summary had an important distinction - he specifically pointed out that Quinn was behaving very badly and didn't try to minimize it or victim blame Gjoni for writing about it.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:17
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Neurolimal posted:Some silver lining: After this tourney the winner (one of the winners?) donated their earnings to the people who were harassed, and basically took a dump on Aris (dude doing the harassing). Most fighting game fans thought (or already thought) Aris was a douchebag, though it cannot be denied that there were people defending him and demanding that people not harm "fighting game culture". Yeah the fighting game community is way more diverse, and not from any particular drive to be like that, but just that it was formed from people meeting in arcades to play against one another all the time. Not that it's perfect -- even within that broad community there are some pretty awful super smash bros players.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:18
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Totalizator posted:You missed the part where I implied the "SJW" should support and make their own entertainment rather then being a hostile parasite on the entertainment of others. They do not wish for inclusion, they want gamers out of gaming so they can take it over and rebuild it as a tool for social justice. There is no conspiracy to make you unhappy. Your list relies more on length than actual content. Let's take a random one: "As someone who loves games, but who has become increasingly depressed by the noxious culture that surrounds them, this whole issue makes me furious" What a loving rear end in a top hat, trying to destroy gaming. It's a standard liberal critique, talking about "tropes" and how bad GG is. There are some disagreeable things there, but there is no conspiracy to make you unhappy. You don't even address whether or not games themselves are good, because you can't. You don't want good games, you want people to loudly enjoy a consumer product. Ceitics complain endlessly, and thus hinder your enjoyment. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Jun 27, 2015 |
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Jun 27, 2015 23:19
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Dreylad posted:Yeah the fighting game community is way more diverse, and not from any particular drive to be like that, but just that it was formed from people meeting in arcades to play against one another all the time. Not that it's perfect -- even within that broad community there are some pretty awful super smash bros players. Having experienced the smash community a long while ago, the most awful thing about them is the smell. blackguy32 posted:Then how about just not making the sexualized taunts at all? It wouldn't be that difficult and removing them doesn't make the game worse. "Did we really need The Bride to kill all those men? Why couldn't it have just been a few? It wouldn't have changed anything." InsanityIsCrazy fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Jun 27, 2015 |
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Jun 27, 2015 23:19
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Totalizator posted:So it's not a problem of diversity in characters but rather a problem of diversity in villains. I applaud and agree with the stance there should be more bisexual and gay villains in games but this run the risk of people complaining about gay people being portrayed as evil (and in this case, evil rapists) Then how about just not making the sexualized taunts at all? It wouldn't be that difficult and removing them doesn't make the game worse.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:19
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INH5 posted:Except that Shadow of Mordor is rated M, whereas Arkham City is rated T. I think that may be the root of the thing: it's just easier to write PG rated catcalls than it is to write PG rated disparagements of masculinity that don't sound completely lame. Not denying this, but I should point out that gender double standards within the MPAA and ESRB do exist, and they are not blind to this fact and in fact are assisted by it. It doesn't negate your grievances but it does support the notion that there is progress to be made within the game industry. quote:But I think it's still stupid to complain about bad guys acting like bad guys. The problem people have is that these specific taunts harm the power fantasy when played by someone who experiences sexism on a daily basis, to make it easier: imagine a game where playing a white guy has the enemies say generic "think ur so tuff pal" taunts, while playing a black guy makes the enemies say "bet you wish you had some fried chicken 'right 'bout now, porchmonkey"
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Jun 27, 2015 23:20
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blackguy32 posted:Then how about just not making the sexualized taunts at all? It wouldn't be that difficult and removing them doesn't make the game worse. That's the weird thing- the essense of batman arkham city is a sexless power fantasy, just this little bit of it sticks out. Nobody's gonna ban it for that, though. It seems like the GG argument is that "gamers" should be left to jack off to catwoman in peace, with no criticism.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:21
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blackguy32 posted:Then how about just not making the sexualized taunts at all? It wouldn't be that difficult and removing them doesn't make the game worse. Removing sexualized stuff from games is not a solution because now you're saying "this aspect of human psyche is bad, why portray it at all". This is the social justice stance - don't portray problematic things so people cannot commit thoughtcrimes. I could go and dig up some twitter quotes of people seriously backing this stance but I've been arguing about twitter poo poo for like six hours now so I'll leave it to you if you're interested.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:22
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Panzeh posted:It seems like the GG argument is that "gamers" should be left to jack off to catwoman in peace, with no criticism. yeah, it seems like any criticism of gaming gets puffed up and stretched to the point where it's tantamount to a diabolical plot to destroy gaming forever
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Jun 27, 2015 23:22
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Brannock posted:Thanks to certain other posters I'm overskeptical of rhetorically-useful claims of ignorance but I suppose I was mistaken here. Sorry for the accusation. I believe you. Cool. it's completely true, I didn't touch this really until it D&D. The real life devs and stuff I know are guys I used to work with at EA and people in edutainment software--some of them might have been on the GGs side fifteen years ago but they've become cooler dudes since then and try to make workplaces better place for women these days. quote:This is someone who was a direct witness to the initial "Zoepost" talking about the matter: https://medium.com/@srachel_m/gamergate-launched-in-my-apartment-and-internet-im-sorry-not-that-sorry-13e5650fd172 If you want you can go google for Gjoni's callout of Quinn and her actions using chatlogs to source his claims. It's extremely long and very tedious to read through, which is why I'm not surprised that many people are just running off summaries of it obtained from other people. I don't blame them, really. Okay, assuming that's entirely true, it's horrible behavior on her part. Posting it online is still wildly stupid. I also don't have any reason to believe it is entirely true, though Quinn does seem, from associated stuff that seems verifiable, to be screwed up, I don't know if there is stuff being left out of this story. I generally assume there is. But even if it's completely one-sided, I still don't think it's a good idea to put it out there on the internet. I think it's his right to do so and I don't think he should be prosecuted or anything for it, which is exactly consistent with my stance on rape victims. I don't think that all rape victims should tell their stories publicly, in many cases it's going to be exactly the wrong decision and will just make things worse for them, but I'm very defensive of their right to do so. In this case, when what's being alleged is emotional abuse that mostly consists of threats to break up with him and gaslighting, it's super-hurtful but it doesn't rise to the level where I think warning other people in a blanket public statement is really morally defensible. I also think anyone with half a brain would realize that it would turn into a giant loving deal online because they're in the game industry. Obdicut fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Jun 27, 2015 |
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Jun 27, 2015 23:23
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:Thats kinda how I see it. It'd be like complaining about facehuggers sticking their literal dicks in your mouth. Because this is loving stupid. You will notice how most games don't promote rape of a female as a way for you to get back the main character even if they are evil. I mean should antagonists start calling black characters the N-word simply because they are black?
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Jun 27, 2015 23:23
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Totalizator posted:So it's not a problem of diversity in characters but rather a problem of diversity in villains. I applaud and agree with the stance there should be more bisexual and gay villains in games but this run the risk of people complaining about gay people being portrayed as evil (and in this case, evil rapists) Sexual assault is often about power as much as it is about sex (probably even more, to be honest) I seriously doubt that a 'realistic' villain who is an evil rapist who wants to break and humiliate batman wouldn't want to do it in the most emasculating way it's possible to do so. "I want to break this guy I hate's spirit, I am also a lunatic, but I am NO HOMO"
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Jun 27, 2015 23:23
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Totalizator posted:Removing sexualized stuff from games is not a solution because now you're saying "this aspect of human psyche is bad, why portray it at all". This is the social justice stance - don't portray problematic things so people cannot commit thoughtcrimes. I could go and dig up some twitter quotes of people seriously backing this stance but I've been arguing about twitter poo poo for like six hours now so I'll leave it to you if you're interested. you don't have to have literal rape threats in a game. you can choose to put them in the game, or not. it's not necessary to acknowledge bad things in places where it is not necessarily warranted just to signal that you oppose said bad thing. it's not censorship, it's just being polite and considerate of others again your argument doesn't make much logical sense. you don't have to put rape threats in a game just to demonstrate that nobody will restrict your ability to put rape threats in a game, even if you don't approve of rape threats
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Jun 27, 2015 23:24
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Neurolimal posted:
Yeah, especially when Catwoman actually gets beaten down to the ground and is surrounded by a bunch of thugs who were threatening her with rape a second ago. It may be silly, but our minds are a lot more conditioned to accept the death of the hero and be okay with 'restarting' after that without a problem than accepting the gang-rape of the hero. Ddraig posted:Sexual assault is often about power as much as it is about sex (probably even more, to be honest) Yeah, there's a lot of 'suck my dick' in most macho confrontations. Or at least they'd be threatening to gently caress his mom.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:24
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:There is no conspiracy to make you unhappy. Conspiracy conspiracy conspiracy conspiracy conspiracy. Nobody here is talking about a conspiracy. Critics are criticizing things and people are criticizing critics. Some people think critics have too much say and people too little. No conspiracy.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:24
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blackguy32 posted:Because this is loving stupid. You will notice how most games don't promote rape of a female as a way for you to get back the main character even if they are evil. I mean should antagonists start calling black characters the N-word simply because they are black? A bad guys nature is to be a huge rear end in a top hat. I guess these particular game writers aren't smart enough to make them more vicious in combat other than to say really really bad things to people.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:25
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Totalizator posted:Removing sexualized stuff from games is not a solution because now you're saying "this aspect of human psyche is bad, why portray it at all". Not inherently bad, just out of place in a comic book game where the man in the rubber bat suit fights the psycho clown. Realism is a ridiculous argument for inclusion of sexism in games. We don't see Arkham inmates raping each other or white thugs calling black guys niggers, even though that would fall within the realm of realistic possibilities. It's a work of fiction, not an attempt at portraying reality.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:25
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Totalizator posted:Conspiracy conspiracy conspiracy conspiracy conspiracy. Nobody here is talking about a conspiracy. Critics are criticizing things and people are criticizing critics. Some people think critics have too much say and people too little. No conspiracy. Glad you recognized you were wrong. You're learning a lot here, we're proud of you.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:25
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Neurolimal posted:The problem people have is that these specific taunts harm the power fantasy when played by someone who experiences sexism on a daily basis, to make it easier: imagine a game where playing a white guy has the enemies say generic "think ur so tuff pal" taunts, while playing a black guy makes the enemies say "bet you wish you had some fried chicken 'right 'bout now, porchmonkey" I see your very valid point but I also don't know if it's a good idea for games that are ostensibly set in a world that's Very Similar To Ours to depict it as a place where women and minorities don't experience any discrimination or threats beyond that which a white male experiences. Especially if it's a game that tries to rub the player's nose into the fact that life is pretty lovely? I'm not calling for Animal Crossing to start tossing in sexist threats here, but I think it'd be helpful for a certain subset of gamers to recognize that female characters (and thus real women) get a very different experience from threats than male characters do.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:26
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Totalizator posted:Removing sexualized stuff from games is not a solution because now you're saying "this aspect of human psyche is bad, why portray it at all". This is the social justice stance - don't portray problematic things so people cannot commit thoughtcrimes. I could go and dig up some twitter quotes of people seriously backing this stance but I've been arguing about twitter poo poo for like six hours now so I'll leave it to you if you're interested. This is dumb. Yo'u're saying that any sexualised material in art is just "an aspect of the human psyche" and thus completely natural. You claim that you want portrayal of "problematic things," but you don't actually consider it as art, because it's supposed to be 'just there,' so to say. This is as ideological statement as they come. You don't actually support games as an art form, you support them as a product. e: lfield posted:Not inherently bad, just out of place in a comic book game where the man in the rubber bat suit fights the psycho clown. Like Totalizator shows, GG and like-minded people don't approach games as art, they approach them as products. This is why artistic intention is defended, if ever, only when it's challenged. It's why they're the same as SJWs/whatever. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Jun 27, 2015 |
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Jun 27, 2015 23:26
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Brannock posted:I see your very valid point but I also don't know if it's a good idea for games that are ostensibly set in a world that's Very Similar To Ours to depict it as a place where women and minorities don't experience any discrimination or threats beyond that which a white male experiences. Especially if it's a game that tries to rub the player's nose into the fact that life is pretty lovely? I'm not calling for Animal Crossing to start tossing in sexist threats here, but I think it'd be helpful for a certain subset of gamers to recognize that female characters (and thus real women) get a very different experience from threats than male characters do. Again, then the problem is total inconsistency. Why aren't we hearing the white inmates (and hell, the black inmates) calling the black inmates friend of the family? Why is nobody threatening to gently caress anyone's mom and calling each other human being? Why aren't people calling Batman a pussy bitch human being when he bat-claws out of a fight?
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Jun 27, 2015 23:28
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Also, I really don't know why the twitter brigade hasn't tried to pick apart Alien Isolation. The number of penetration-related deaths and penile references from the big ugly are astronomical.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:28
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Neurolimal posted:The problem people have is that these specific taunts harm the power fantasy when played by someone who experiences sexism on a daily basis, to make it easier: imagine a game where playing a white guy has the enemies say generic "think ur so tuff pal" taunts, while playing a black guy makes the enemies say "bet you wish you had some fried chicken 'right 'bout now, porchmonkey" I did a bit of googling around, and the people who wrote articles complaining about this include: Film Critic Hulk, who I'm pretty sure is a dude, Kirk Hamilton, a dude, Luke Holland, a dude, Dan Hoydt, a dude, and Bill Coberly, a dude. I'd have an easier time buying this argument if the people presenting it weren't mostly a bunch of guys talking about how they think women would react to it. The first two blog posts I came across about this issue that were actually written by women were both pretty neutral about it. Obdicut posted:Again, then the problem is total inconsistency. Why aren't we hearing the white inmates (and hell, the black inmates) calling the black inmates friend of the family? Why is nobody threatening to gently caress anyone's mom and calling each other human being? Why aren't people calling Batman a pussy bitch human being when he bat-claws out of a fight? Because the game is rated T. INH5 fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Jun 27, 2015 |
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Jun 27, 2015 23:28
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:Also, I really don't know why the twitter brigade hasn't tried to pick apart Alien Isolation. The number of penetration-related deaths and penile references from the big ugly are astronomical. It's almost like that's a fairly tonally consistent game.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:29
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Panzeh posted:It's almost like that's a fairly tonally consistent game. It's a loving great game and everyone should play it  Though if that's the deal, more purposefully sexist games would be better received? Do we need more Grindhouse games?
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Jun 27, 2015 23:30
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:This is dumb. I like arty games sometimes and sometimes i like gamey games. I like it when a game is less sanitized and not more. Nintendo makes wonderful games that are 100% squeaky clean and I love them but there is also room for gritty realism and social commentary and walking simulators and all sorts of good things for everyone to enjoy. The criticism people posted on this page for the catwoman thing is valid but you know the developers are either a)remove any even vaguely sexualized content from the game alltogether to not offend anyone or b)just not make a female character next time. Making a nuanced, rich portrayal of a female protagonist would be something I'd love to happen but for that people who are passionate about it need to do it instead of having wars on the internet.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:30
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INH5 posted:
Then why are they calling her bitch and threatening her with rape, and not threatening batman that way? Why aren't they at least calling batman a bitch? Do you think that doesn't happen in real life, and that doing so doesn't also show misogyny--assuming that we're going with the idea that showing her get called bitch is actually a meaningful demonstration of misogyny meant to realistically portray something? Edit: This is a great time to recommend the excellent book "Dude, You're a Fag: Masculinity and Sexuality in High School" http://www.amazon.com/Dude-Youre-Fag-Masculinity-Sexuality/dp/0520271483 Obdicut fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Jun 27, 2015 |
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Jun 27, 2015 23:32
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:Also, I really don't know why the twitter brigade hasn't tried to pick apart Alien Isolation. The number of penetration-related deaths and penile references from the big ugly are astronomical. Not only is it a franchise with credence among feminists, but its particular artistic choices don't support that criticism. It's not used as set-dressing for a more traditional plot, it's essentially the whole point. The franchise is about fighting murder-rapists.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:32
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Obdicut posted:Then why are they calling her bitch and threatening her with rape, and not threatening batman that way? The inmates do occasionally do that. One of their taunts, "You're mine" gets used against both Batman and Catwoman.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:33
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Totalizator posted:Removing sexualized stuff from games is not a solution because now you're saying "this aspect of human psyche is bad, why portray it at all". This is the social justice stance - don't portray problematic things so people cannot commit thoughtcrimes. I could go and dig up some twitter quotes of people seriously backing this stance but I've been arguing about twitter poo poo for like six hours now so I'll leave it to you if you're interested. No one argued for removing sexualized stuff from games in this thread, people are arguing for removing that particular thing. But I mean if people are going to appeal to realism and poo poo, why can't they appeal to you know actually having game worlds that actually mirror real life demographics? So many white male protagonists in video games despite minorities making up a considerable part of the population? Why does it seem that Gamergaters are fine with realism until it starts going against the status quo?
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Jun 27, 2015 23:33
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Totalizator posted:Making a nuanced, rich portrayal of a female protagonist would be something I'd love to happen but for that people who are passionate about it need to do it instead of having wars on the internet. how does it add nuance or richness to a female character when npcs threaten to rape her
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Jun 27, 2015 23:35
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INH5 posted:Because the game is rated T. So presumably it's OK for teenage girls to hear explicit mentions of sexual assault directed at them via a female proxy?
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Jun 27, 2015 23:35
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Totalizator posted:I like arty games sometimes and sometimes i like gamey games. I like it when a game is less sanitized and not more. Nintendo makes wonderful games that are 100% squeaky clean and I love them but there is also room for gritty realism and social commentary and walking simulators and all sorts of good things for everyone to enjoy. The criticism people posted on this page for the catwoman thing is valid but you know the developers are either a)remove any even vaguely sexualized content from the game alltogether to not offend anyone or b)just not make a female character next time. Making a nuanced, rich portrayal of a female protagonist would be something I'd love to happen but for that people who are passionate about it need to do it instead of having wars on the internet. Again, this is dumb. You're relying on an arbitrary divison between "arty" games and "gamey" games. Just like how you imply a difference between "clean fun" and "gritty social commentary". You don't actually understand what you're arguing, you discuss the world only through stereotypes. e: Which is not even getting into your stupidest point: none of this matters. Games can stand on their own. You don't evaluate them on the hypothetical influence of feminists. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Jun 27, 2015 |
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Jun 27, 2015 23:36
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blackguy32 posted:So many white male protagonists in video games despite minorities making up a considerable part of the population? Why does it seem that Gamergaters are fine with realism until it starts going against the status quo? Here's an excercise: try to find gamergaters complaining about a woman or minority protagonist in a game, instead of a white male. Ideally have it be in a long conversation where other gamergaters join in with support and not a lone and forgotten tweet by some nut, but I'll be generous and take those too.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:36
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INH5 posted:The inmates do occasionally do that. One of their taunts, "I"m going to make you my bitch" gets used against both Batman and Catwoman. Okay, I played the game a lot and don't remember that. you sure that's a taunt and not a one-off line?
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Jun 27, 2015 23:37
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Ddraig posted:So presumably it's OK for teenage girls to hear explicit mentions of sexual assault directed at them via a female proxy? They hear it enough on television. Hell, CSI has a Cyber show now and SVU is still going. I forget their age ratings.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:38
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:It's a loving great game and everyone should play it But, the whole point is that the Alien or the facehuggers don't give a gently caress about what gender you are. The game (which cribs heavily from the movie) handles its tone in an entirely different way.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:38
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Totalizator posted:I like arty games sometimes and sometimes i like gamey games. I like it when a game is less sanitized and not more. Nintendo makes wonderful games that are 100% squeaky clean and I love them but there is also room for gritty realism and social commentary and walking simulators and all sorts of good things for everyone to enjoy. The criticism people posted on this page for the catwoman thing is valid but you know the developers are either a)remove any even vaguely sexualized content from the game alltogether to not offend anyone or b)just not make a female character next time. Making a nuanced, rich portrayal of a female protagonist would be something I'd love to happen but for that people who are passionate about it need to do it instead of having wars on the internet. So whatever a game is, it's okay- unless a game's changed in a way I don't like, in which case it's political pressure, and those BIG BAD CRITICS are ruining my fun.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:38
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Again, this is dumb. You're relying on an arbitrary divison between "arty" games and "gamey" games. Just like how you imply a difference between "clean fun" and "gritty social commentary". To describe how things are different from one another you need words. Splatoon is not Gone Home is not God of War is not Bayonetta. Please tell me how I'm a mindless consumerist again and a braindead sheeple not capable of understanding the nuance of anti-capitalist thought. Panzeh posted:So whatever a game is, it's okay- unless a game's changed in a way I don't like, in which case it's political pressure, and those BIG BAD CRITICS are ruining my fun. Stop strawmanning. If a game is changed due to political pressure or moral outrage of any sort it is bad, regardless of how I feel about the change. Read up what "chilling effect" is on media.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:39
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