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Terrible Opinions posted:This is the exact sort of stuff that I'm talking about. Nothing about GG was planned, because GG isn't an actual organization or group. It's just a bunch of assholes on twitter holding the same sign. It's like claiming that high school kids wearing Che Guevera t-shirts "planned" something when one person wearing such a shirt destroyed an piece of public art. They're all idiots but they're idiots on their own. How does that work? They can create IRC channels devoted to her and spend all day talking about the best way to get her to commit suicide but nothing they do counts as planned because ???
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Jun 28, 2015 05:22
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Shadoer posted:Yeah there was. People wondered about stuff like how "Gone Home" got rave reviews and discounted that it was a financial kickback because it was an indie game. probably because it was a good and innovative game. not everything that someone personally dislikes is popular because of a conspiracy or malfeasance. people are allowed to find different things interesting Shadoer posted:Well the flashpoint for a bunch of movements are really friggen stupid. you're admitting that the flashpoint for gamergate was really friggen stupid? Shadoer posted:Yeah but part of the thing that also fueled the fire was that these "indie gaming sites" weren't suppose to be that indie anymore and were suppose to be different. so one of the reasons gamergate became a thing was because indie gaming sites were less indie than they should have been? Shadoer posted:That at least one rear end in a top hat in Kotaku was trading positive press coverage for sexual favors and her boss was giving jobs to people that sexually pleased him? Is this an isolated incident or the state of the indie scene is far worse than people thought? it was probably an isolated incident. actual companies tend to frown on trading sexual favors for profit or benefit. this is not a thing that professional, white collar people do in professional, white collar occupations
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Jun 28, 2015 05:22
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Volkerball posted:hello, hi. i have a question. this whole thing started like a year ago iirc, and it sounded like someone called a girl a slut and then there was some jerry springer bullshit, and that's it. why do people still care. why do you talk about it for 80 pages in a day. why why why. the only thing harder to comprehend than how dumb and uninteresting this whole episode has been is how so many people can somehow dedicate 4+ hours a day to posting about gamergates and nothing but gamergates. what are you all getting from this. That is because said jerry springer bullshit was part of a much bigger bullshit and that certain event was the last straw so people who opposed said bullshit united under a common name. Not like it matters, this thread is just about being willingly obtuse about this and argue why Gamergate is not kicking puppy dogs even though that's what you heard them doing also flexing each other's ego.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:24
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Shadoer posted:Yeah there was. People wondered about stuff like how "Gone Home" got rave reviews and discounted that it was a financial kickback because it was an indie game. Gone Home got rave reviews because it was awesome. A lot of indie poo poo gets praised by pseudo-intellectual dweeb journalists but Gone Home was a really well done presentation of a small but very particular place at a very particular time. The sudden rise of indie gaming doesn't have anything to do with some six-degrees of separation game that's always going to find links in a city like SF. It has to do with distribution models maturing, information distribution on the internet maturing to the point where IGN and GameSpot aren't gatekeepers, and AAA gaming facing back to back lackluster years in 2013/2014. GG is also hilariously incompetent at uncovering the nepotism they despise. It exists in the industry but they have no clue. If they did they'd be complaining about fifteen year old IRC channels not some freelancer's old roommate. Those who frequented #vidgames in its heyday now run major platform holders, publishers, developers, and gaming outlets 
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Jun 28, 2015 05:25
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Jack Gladney posted:Trope and cliche are very much synonymous with one another in serious discussion of grown-up art. They both have origins in ways of describing figurative language that has lost originality. Who says they're different? The dictionary and everyone who creates. Trope posted:: a word, phrase, or image used in a new and different way in order to create an artistic effect Cliche posted:: a phrase or expression that has been used so often that it is no longer original or interesting They aren't synonymous. People think they are, but they aren't. If you want, I can post a hundred articles on how they are different.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:26
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Dapper Dan posted:The dictionary and everyone who creates. Let's try at least one that's been through peer review.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:31
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Popular Thug Drink posted:probably because it was a good and innovative game. lol Just so you know, System Shock 2 invented looking for Audio Diaries back in 1999, and it also had the common courtesy to have stuff like a coherent story and gameplay surrounding it.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:32
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7c Nickel posted:Except from day -1, the second was planned as a smokescreen for the first. Yes by the evil patriachical conspiracy which somehow needs a legitimate cover story. Exclamation Marx posted:Then why do Sarkeesian, Quinn, and Wu have every detail of their lives pored over? The gamergate was started by misogynist assholes. If it was about ethics in video game journalism then Sarkeesian in particular would be irrelevant. Your movement is reactionary. It doesn't have any firm objectives, it's just lashing out. Yeah, and a lot of people on the side of gamergate also had every detail of their lives poured over, got doxxed, and didn't get a bunch of press coverage saying how horrible it is. Yet somehow one group has to be defined by the assholes, and the other group simply can't. Like this is the thing that gets me, you claim that there's no firm objectives but even in this thread it's clear. There's a debate on censorship and what constitutes censorship with Gamergate being against censorship. There's a debate on how doxxing and harassment on the internet should be dealt with, with largely both sides agreeing there's a problem and law enforcement should step in but disagreeing what is doxxing and harassment. There is a debate about the state of feminism and progessivism and how it should be promoted, and what it even should be. There is a debate on the ethics in video game journalism, and how it should be applied in a case where the main source of revenue is also the main object of discussion, as well as what is the line on personal relationships with someone you are actively covering and if it's realistic. All of these are a part of gamergate, and all of these discussions are worth having. Instead the main critisism and discussion points against gamergate isn't these things or even it's views on these things, it keeps coming back to "it was started by a misogynist rear end in a top hat so it all has to be wrong" which has the intellectual maturity of saying discussing smoking bans are wrong because the Nazi's were the first to do it. Or the discussion has moved to expand beyond video game journalism, so that's proof of a harassment campaign just like Amnesty International's letter campaign expanding into a full society that is against human rights violations is a conspiracy. Like I'm sorry, but that's really intellectually lazy. Also for that matter, Sarkeesian is a person who commentates on games and the news about games, by most definitions of the word journalist she's effectively a journalist that covers games at this point, so I'd say she's fair game.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:33
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VJeff posted:lol You mean
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Jun 28, 2015 05:34
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I haven't played Gone Home but from what I've seen and heard of it it sounds like it at least has a sense of atmosphere and mystery, which is far more than can be said of most of the indie art games that followed it.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:35
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VJeff posted:lol so what is the objective criteria by which you can determine that gone home is factually a bad game? The Droid posted:I haven't played Gone Home but from what I've seen and heard of it it sounds like it at least has a sense of atmosphere and mystery, which is far more than can be said of most of the indie art games that followed it. yes but there isn't a single enemy to fight and no high score, so it's not really a game
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Jun 28, 2015 05:35
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Shadoer posted:Yes by the evil patriachical conspiracy which somehow needs a legitimate cover story. Her being a journalist doesn't make it fair game to hunt down her home address and personal phone number, and no court of law would agree with you.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:36
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Popular Thug Drink posted:so what is the objective criteria by which you can determine that gone home is factually a bad game? The insipid story and unlikable poo poo characters, that's how.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:36
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VJeff posted:The insipid story and unlikable poo poo characters, that's how. So like most AAA titles?
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Jun 28, 2015 05:37
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Shadoer posted:There's a debate on censorship and what constitutes censorship with Gamergate being against censorship. aside from zoe quinn's home address, what was being censored? Shadoer posted:Also for that matter, Sarkeesian is a person who commentates on games and the news about games, by most definitions of the word journalist she's effectively a journalist that covers games at this point, so I'd say she's fair game. fair game for what? rape threats?
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Jun 28, 2015 05:37
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What makes a good game is subjective. I, personally, think train simulators are boring. Other people love them. Declaring a game good or bad in an objective sense is rather worthless.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:38
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VJeff posted:The insipid story and unlikable poo poo characters, that's how. those are subjective criteria. you're allowed to personally dislike gone home. how can you tell that it is defninitely a bad game, beyond your individual distaste for it? to tie this back into the greater point, how can we determine that gone home is certainly, without question, bad, meaning that the only reason some people thought it was good was because they were paid to say that, or because of ideological adherence to feminism or whatever?
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Jun 28, 2015 05:38
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Popular Thug Drink posted:probably because it was a good and innovative game. not everything that someone personally dislikes is popular because of a conspiracy or malfeasance. people are allowed to find different things interesting True, but it was pretty drat odd that so many review sites gave it positive reviews when there were clear problems in the game. Popular Thug Drink posted:you're admitting that the flashpoint for gamergate was really friggen stupid? I don't believe anyone is denying that an angry ex-boyfriends rant wasn't stupid. Popular Thug Drink posted:so one of the reasons gamergate became a thing was because indie gaming sites were less indie than they should have been? In a sense yes, people wanted them to be different and they were arguably worse. Popular Thug Drink posted:it was probably an isolated incident. actual companies tend to frown on trading sexual favors for profit or benefit. this is not a thing that professional, white collar people do in professional, white collar occupations Exactly, which made the lack of an even token reprimand of Grayson really unorthodox.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:39
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These poor women are victims of a hatemob, therefore you shall have absolutely no criticism towards their work, otherwise you'll be part of said hatemob.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:40
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Sinnlos posted:What makes a good game is subjective. I, personally, think train simulators are boring. Other people love them. Declaring a game good or bad in an objective sense is rather worthless. On the other hand, you can critique a game for what it sets out to do, like how Fallout 3 and Skyrim are horribly written, or how a game's mechanics are flawed. Or in the case of train simulators, how it stacks up as a train simulator. e: And before someone tries to say that good and bad writing are subjective, plotholes, flawed logic, tonal discrepancies are not exactly subjective criteria.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:40
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Sinnlos posted:Her being a journalist doesn't make it fair game to hunt down her home address and personal phone number, and no court of law would agree with you. Popular Thug Drink posted:fair game for what? rape threats? Of course not, and I've said time and time again that harassment is bad full stop. However I think criticizing her work is completely fine. Popular Thug Drink posted:aside from zoe quinn's home address, what was being censored? Any discussion related to gamergate. All of it, in fact it was being argued for a time that any gamergate discussion was the equivalent of harassment.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:41
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Shadoer posted:True, but it was pretty drat odd that so many review sites gave it positive reviews when there were clear problems in the game. what problems? i didn't encounter any bugs playing the game, and it was clearly and logically laid out maybe people gave it good reviews because they liked it, thought it was good, and wanted other people to play it? Shadoer posted:In a sense yes, people wanted them to be different and they were arguably worse. different how, and how does this necessitate an organized takedown to restore ethics to gaming journalism? the two don't logically connect in my mind Shadoer posted:Exactly, which made the lack of an even token reprimand of Grayson really unorthodox. companies usually don't publicise their internal HR disciplinary records. very few companies do this. Shadoer posted:Of course not, and I've said time and time again that harassment is bad full stop. However I think criticizing her work is completely fine. so someone who isn't a journalist isn't fair game to be criticized? the implication was that she was 'fair game' for harassment Shadoer posted:Any discussion related to gamergate. All of it, in fact it was being argued for a time that any gamergate discussion was the equivalent of harassment. by who? a lot of gamergate discussion is oriented around harrassing people, framed as some kind of revolt against creeping SJWism
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Jun 28, 2015 05:41
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The Droid posted:I haven't played Gone Home but from what I've seen and heard of it it sounds like it at least has a sense of atmosphere and mystery, which is far more than can be said of most of the indie art games that followed it. There was one neat moment where everything goes dark and you're like OH poo poo - and then you realize it was just a lightbulb burning out and nothing's actually wrong. That's pretty much the highlight of the game. Trabisnikof posted:So like most AAA titles? Yes! Popular Thug Drink posted:those are subjective criteria. you're allowed to personally dislike gone home. Well gee, I'm sure you're not being a disingenuous shithead right now, so I guess I should point out - I never said that Gone Home was objectively bad, I laughed at the assertion that it was innovative because it has exactly one card to play that somebody else came up with like, over a decade ago. Do YOU have any objective, definitive, 100% certain proof that it's a GOOD game, since you're the one who started framing it that way?
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Jun 28, 2015 05:42
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Sinnlos posted:What makes a good game is subjective. I, personally, think train simulators are boring. Other people love them. Declaring a game good or bad in an objective sense is rather worthless. Eh, the fabled "objective" review would basically be a tech analysis. Does everything load right, hows the voice syncing, graphics requirements and bugs, crashing problems, etc. It'd be really drat boring but could exist.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:42
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Sinnlos posted:What makes a good game is subjective. I, personally, think train simulators are boring. Other people love them. Declaring a game good or bad in an objective sense is rather worthless. Popular Thug Drink posted:those are subjective criteria. you're allowed to personally dislike gone home. Yes it's true that like for something is subjective, that's why it was statistically improbable for so many gaming sites to give it rave reviews.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:43
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Jack Gladney posted:Let's try at least one that's been through peer review. Are you serious? You want me to find a peer reviewed article when I just gave you the dictionary definitions of both from Merriam-Webster indicating they are different? Here, how about from the site that popularized it: Tropes vs Cliche posted:Tropes are devices and conventions that a writer can reasonably rely on as being present in the audience members' minds and expectations. On the whole, tropes are not clichés. The word clichéd means "stereotyped and trite." In other words, dull and uninteresting. Cliche posted:A cliché is a phrase, motif, trope, or other element within an artistic work that has become common enough to be seen as predictable, tired, overused, and generally unfavorable. Such items tend to break Willing Suspension of Disbelief by calling attention to the lack of creativity on the part of the creator. How about I give you some writers, you know, the people who actually use the things and read the dictionary on occasion: http://www.adamheine.com/2011/06/tropes-vs-cliches.html http://writeworld.org/post/39905367141/stereotypes-tropes-and-archetypes I am not searching through peer reviewed papers when the main site dedicated to tropes agrees they are different from a cliche. EDIT: You may have responded or not by now, but here is some more: The Penguin Dictionary of Literary Terms and Theory posted:cliche (''stereorype plate') A trite, over-used expression which is life-less. A very large number of idioms (q.".) have become cliches through excessive use. The following sentence contains eight common ones:.\0'hen the grocer, who was as fit as a fiddle, had taken stock of thesiruadon he saw the writing on the wall, but decided to turn over anew leaf and put his house in order by taking a long shot at eliminat-ing his rival in the street - who was also an old hand at making thebest of a bad job.' The Penguin Dictionary of Literary Terms and Theory posted:Trope (Gk'turn') In general it still denotes any rhetorical or figurative device, but a special development in its use occurred during the Middle Ages when it came to be applied to a verbal amplification of the liturgical text. An early example was the elaboration of the Dapper Dan fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Jun 28, 2015 |
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Jun 28, 2015 05:43
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VJeff posted:Well gee, I'm sure you're not being a disingenuous shithead right now, so I guess I should point out - I never said that Gone Home was objectively bad, I laughed at the assertion that it was innovative because it has exactly one card to play that somebody else came up with like, over a decade ago. Do YOU have any objective, definitive, 100% certain proof that it's a GOOD game, since you're the one who started framing it that way? you're focusing on one mechanic within the game, which is odd, because nobody praised the game for the use of audio logs, they praised the game for aptly inserting the player character into a personal and nostalgiac family narrative. claiming that the use of audio journals was the innovative aspect seems like an extreme misinterpretation of the game. i can see why you would dislike it
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Jun 28, 2015 05:44
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Shadoer posted:Yes it's true that like for something is subjective, that's why it was statistically improbable for so many gaming sites to give it rave reviews. Do you have an excel file analyzing what games get what rating or something
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Jun 28, 2015 05:44
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Shadoer posted:Yes it's true that like for something is subjective, that's why it was statistically improbable for so many gaming sites to give it rave reviews. what? how is that statistically improbable? what is the statistical median review it should have recieved?
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Jun 28, 2015 05:45
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Shadoer posted:Yes it's true that like for something is subjective, that's why it was statistically improbable for so many gaming sites to give it rave reviews. You accused me of making up a a conspiracy, never mind that we have the actual IRC logs of people plotting the best way to ruin someone's life, but somehow think think a tiny indie studio somehow rigged the reviews for dozen of publications. This is somehow more likely than reviewers tastes lining up?
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Jun 28, 2015 05:46
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The Droid posted:On the other hand, you can critique a game for what it sets out to do, like how Fallout 3 and Skyrim are horribly written, or how a game's mechanics are flawed. Or in the case of train simulators, how it stacks up as a train simulator. InsanityIsCrazy posted:Eh, the fabled "objective" review would basically be a tech analysis. Does everything load right, hows the voice syncing, graphics requirements and bugs, crashing problems, etc. It'd be really drat boring. So we ought to compare Gone Home to similar games in terms of less tangible metrics, like plot and aesthetic. When we do so, I personally don't find it to be a bad game.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:47
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Sinnlos posted:Declaring a game good or bad in an objective sense is rather worthless. Counterpoint: Ride to Hell: Retribution: The 2% or whatever
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Jun 28, 2015 05:48
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Sinnlos posted:So we ought to compare Gone Home to similar games in terms of less tangible metrics, like plot and aesthetic. When we do so, I personally don't find it to be a bad game. That's fine, since Gone Home had none of the mechanical problems as the real stinkers, like Colonial Marines or a freshly released Bethesda game. Or Daikatana.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:49
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Shadoer posted:Yes it's true that like for something is subjective, that's why it was statistically improbable for so many gaming sites to give it rave reviews. Reviewers are mostly all 25-35 year old white American men from a similar class background, with similar political views, with similar work and education histories, and even similar taste in games. Journalism has a diversity problem stemming mostly from the kinds of people who decide to become game journalists in the first place. This leads to people having similar tastes. When paired with the tendency for outlets to assign reviews to people who have at least some interest in the game/genre, this means that review scores and positive ones in particular will cluster.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:49
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Blazing Ownager posted:Counterpoint: Ride to Hell: Retribution: The 2% or whatever And someone somewhere probably loves that game
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Jun 28, 2015 05:50
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Popular Thug Drink posted:what? how is that statistically improbable? what is the statistical median review it should have recieved? Literally The Worst posted:Do you have an excel file analyzing what games get what rating or something No, but somewhere way back a person with zero time on their hands and who was possibly autistic did I believe along with other games. If you google enough and dig a bit, you can probably find it. Popular Thug Drink posted:what problems? i didn't encounter any bugs playing the game, and it was clearly and logically laid out That would be why I said it aroused suspicion, which is why it did. Something improbably doesn't mean it's impossible, and that's why that didn't do anything more than that. Popular Thug Drink posted:companies usually don't publicise their internal HR disciplinary records. very few companies do this. Journalism to an extent does. If they find a story may have been affected, they actually do have an obligation to say why (albeit not necessarily give all the details) Popular Thug Drink posted:so someone who isn't a journalist isn't fair game to be criticized? the implication was that she was 'fair game' for harassment No but that is more or less the context gamergate is focusted in. And no, I have said repeatedly that's harassment is wrong, I haven't implied it, you and other keep trying to say that's what I mean to be trolling assholes. Popular Thug Drink posted:by who? a lot of gamergate discussion is oriented around harrassing people, framed as some kind of revolt against creeping SJWism No it really isn't unless you're counting the endless pages of people like yourself insisting that it has, and always has been, a harassment campaign despite all evidence and argument to the contrary.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:52
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7c Nickel posted:You accused me of making up a a conspiracy, never mind that we have the actual IRC logs of people plotting the best way to ruin someone's life, but somehow think think a tiny indie studio somehow rigged the reviews for dozen of publications. This is somehow more likely than reviewers tastes lining up? I have admitted, repeatedly that there are assholes that were actively harrassing and doing stupid bullshit. And again, that does not make everything about gamergate bad. A misogynist conspiracy to destroy someone's life is true, and hell perhaps part of their plan was to use gamergate as a cover. That does not mean all of gamergate is a conspiracy, or necessarily bad.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:55
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Popular Thug Drink posted:you're focusing on one mechanic within the game, which is odd, because nobody praised the game for the use of audio logs, they praised the game for aptly inserting the player character into a personal and nostalgiac family narrative. claiming that the use of audio journals was the innovative aspect seems like an extreme misinterpretation of the game. i can see why you would dislike it Telling the equivalent of a Lifetime TV movie with a 90s filter slapped over it for nostalgia's sake really isn't breaking any new ground in the medium. Dumb stories like that about privileged people have privileged people troubles are a dime a dozen. I don't have any problem with small games with personal narratives - Bastion is one of my favorites games and an excellent example of that. But Gone Home really, really, really wasn't anything special just because there aren't a lot of this particular kind of rote, boring story in video games.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:56
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Shadoer posted:No, but somewhere way back a person with zero time on their hands and who was possibly autistic did I believe along with other games. If you google enough and dig a bit, you can probably find it. no offense, but i already find the claim that there is a correct computatable score for a game already absurd, so i'm not going to do your legwork for you and just assume that the claim is absurd and leave it at that Shadoer posted:That would be why I said it aroused suspicion, which is why it did. Something improbably doesn't mean it's impossible, and that's why that didn't do anything more than that. i think this suspicion is rooted in some subset of gamers being upset that a game they do not like is popular. i do not think that the review system was rigged, because that is a highly improbable claim itself and i tend to dismiss conspiracy theories offhand without investigating them too much Shadoer posted:No it really isn't unless you're counting the endless pages of people like yourself insisting that it has, and always has been, a harassment campaign despite all evidence and argument to the contrary. i think the huge amount of factual documentary evidence demonstrating that gamergaters regularly harassed and threatened women they did not like speaks for itself, and we'll just have to agree to disagree on the causal sequence of events that may or may not have happened in reality VJeff posted:Telling the equivalent of a Lifetime TV movie with a 90s filter slapped over it for nostalgia's sake really isn't breaking any new ground in the medium. Dumb stories like that about privileged people have privileged people troubles are a dime a dozen. you're welcome to disagree, but i'm not aware of any other predecessors to gone home, which would make it innovative with regard to gaming narratives
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Jun 28, 2015 05:56
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Bholder posted:These poor women are victims of a hatemob, therefore you shall have absolutely no criticism towards their work, otherwise you'll be part of said hatemob. You sure are, if you come in in the middle of discussion of threats and pile on with criticism.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:57
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