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Shadoer posted:Is it? Will someone offer up like a color wheel comparison exposing all these crushed blacks and mic pops that apparently make it impossible for people to learn feminism 101 through analysis of pop culture? What questionable opinions are we talking about? That analysis of a text reveals the structure of the text?
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Jun 29, 2015 04:05
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Jack Gladney posted:All the specific criticism of Anita Sarkeesian in this thread seems weak as hell and boils down to: poor color timing, slow release of new videos, and collaborating with a man who posts silly things on his twitter. There are lots of sweeping statements like, "she's just as silly as the people who harass her!" without a lot to substantiate that claim. How deep down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Liana Kerzner wrote almost a whole novel in a series of articles called :Why Femeinist Frequency Almost made me quit writing about video games": http://metaleater.com/video-games/feature/why-feminist-frequency-almost-made-me-quit-writing-about-video-games-part-1
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Jun 29, 2015 04:05
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Bholder posted:
What you call "SJWs" or "third wave feminists" or "Tumblrinas" is what most people just call "normal people who aren't old (that is 30 or up)". Just food for thought dude.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:08
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Shadoer posted:Yeah and lots of causes started from stupid things. Arguably the environmentalist movement was started by a white con artist pretending to be native american, and hunters who were afraid their kids wouldn't have anything to shoot. So what? The term gamergate was coined to refer to a slutshaming conspiracy theory last year. This isn't something in the long-distant past, this is tagging yourself as part of a misogynist hate mob that has barely changed from its 4chan roots. Using that twitter hashtag is a conscious appeal to that hate mob. If you have legitimate concerns about ethics in gaming journalism (lol), then don't attach yourself to that hashtag. In fact, we've seen the opposite happen the whole time---conservatives who don't give a poo poo about videogames and just want to attack feminists have latched onto the tag in order to sell juice, books, and get twitter followers.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:10
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Jack Gladney posted:All the specific criticism of Anita Sarkeesian in this thread seems weak as hell and boils down to: poor color timing, slow release of new videos, and collaborating with a man who posts silly things on his twitter. There are lots of sweeping statements like, "she's just as silly as the people who harass her!" without a lot to substantiate that claim. No there's a wealth of youtube videos and people who have went through her analysis and showed that she's been doing some dodgy work. Stuff amounting to either purposely ignoring things in the game she's analyzing, or she hasn't played the game. Now yes there's a whole bunch of misogynists who have attacked her and been massive assholes, but arguably the same thing has happened to people who are prominent in gamergate like Milo, and arguably anyone who's prominent on the internet that is stumping for a cause. Not to mention at least I and others in gamergate have condemned harassment repeatedly and I've even stated a few times the people issuing death threats should be dealt with by police, on both sides. However it's you and the anti's who keep bringing her up, most people in the thread who are aligned with gamergate have said repeatedly she isn't even a focus of important. We all keep bringing up McIntosh, shitlord of twitter. Slanderer posted:It's pretty simple though---Sarkeesian only got so much money in the first place because of all the hate speech thrown at her. That has been the main response to her from day 0. She is only well-known because of misogyny. If twitter shut-ins hadn't lost their poo poo over her, she wouldn't have received so much funding and notoriety, she wouldn't have been on TV, and she wouldn't still be the topic of discussion now. Yeah and a lot of people on both sides have achieved this. The Honey Badgers got $30,000 to hire a disbared lawyer for their legal case because of all the poo poo the SJWs threw at them, and the Sarkesian Effect was pretty much funded because of SJW backlash. What's your point?
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Jun 29, 2015 04:11
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Shadoer posted:No there's a wealth of youtube videos and people who have went through her analysis and showed that she's been doing some dodgy work. Stuff amounting to either purposely ignoring things in the game she's analyzing, or she hasn't played the game. most of this has been really circumstantial and nitpicky though, like she said the fourth level boss was actually the third level boss so she hasn't really played the game it's just trying to deflect her critcicism without trying to address her criticism, as a way of dodging the question Shadoer posted:Yeah and a lot of people on both sides have achieved this. The Honey Badgers got $30,000 to hire a disbared lawyer for their legal case because of all the poo poo the SJWs threw at them, and the Sarkesian Effect was pretty much funded because of SJW backlash. What's your point? are all feminists SJWs? i thought most of her funding came from women who were sick of the way men speak to them on the internet. it would be silly to claim that all women who are feminists are SJWs, no?
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Jun 29, 2015 04:14
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Jack Gladney posted:All the specific criticism of Anita Sarkeesian in this thread seems weak as hell and boils down to: poor color timing, slow release of new videos, and collaborating with a man who posts silly things on his twitter. There are lots of sweeping statements like, "she's just as silly as the people who harass her!" without a lot to substantiate that claim. Her disregarding context and the whole thing about tropes we discussed before. We can go over it again I guess, but I don't think anyone is going to convince anyone else either way.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:14
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Shadoer posted:You know, I know your trolling but really why is there the obsession to frame everything gamergate as misogyny? quote:Lots of issues and movements have their fringe extremists that are disowned by the core group, like most people that support the Palestinian cause do not support rear end in a top hat suicide bombing terrorists, and usually the debate can move beyond "your side has these terrible people in it". "Free speech" is a weird issue because both sides are taking up the mantle of expression. The feminist crowd wants to see a wider variety of voices, but Sarkeesian often criticizes mainstream, large-volume selling games for presenting bad images of women and not doing enough to counter gender norms. The other side sees it as idea policing, a call for some sort of diversity quota. Either way, the option of a female protagonist is often a checkbox-list item in most games shown at E3 now. And it could be argued that, you know, in many ways the player character is a tabula rasa for the player's own personality. There's no reason a character shouldn't be a woman of color if that's how you want to see yourself represented and the story wasn't written for the protagonist to be a specific person. I wind up falling in with Anita's critics mostly because she seems to think games have some sort of civic duty to uphold her message. Case in point, her noting that E3 had a ton of gender choice games she lamented the lack of forced female characterization because "it works to counter the long-established, long-reinforced cultural notion that heroes are male by default." A lot of people don't believe it's up to video games, an industry that spends millions of dollars per product and often asks the customer to pay $60 for the product with no prior experience, to promote this message and subvert ancient cultural institutions. The problem with that kind of thinking is, the more you try to spread a message, the more you're limiting your customer profile. Artistic people who make games to spread a message do exist, they just rarely make money by doing it. Al Gore didn't make An Inconvenient Truth because he wanted a gazillion dollars, he did it because he wanted a commoner's forum to spread the lectures that he normally makes at universities and think tanks. The harder you try to persuade people to abandon their long-held beliefs, the harder it is to make money.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:14
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Shadoer posted:Yeah and a lot of people on both sides have achieved this. The Honey Badgers got $30,000 to hire a disbared lawyer for their legal case because of all the poo poo the SJWs threw at them, and the Sarkesian Effect was pretty much funded because of SJW backlash. What's your point? Neither of those are anyone's worst enemy you idiot. The first is some MRAs getting scammed for 30k, and the second is Skullmaster Kane and the Bathrobed Ronin making their masterpiece that will destroy feminism forever, somehow. The only attention either have gotten are "Oh my god are you serious ahahahahhahahahahahahahahah".
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Jun 29, 2015 04:16
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Jack Gladney posted:Will someone offer up like a color wheel comparison exposing all these crushed blacks and mic pops that apparently make it impossible for people to learn feminism 101 through analysis of pop culture? What questionable opinions are we talking about? That analysis of a text reveals the structure of the text? Well for starters the point that people have made videos about which question if she even played the games she analysed. Slanderer posted:The term gamergate was coined to refer to a slutshaming conspiracy theory last year. This isn't something in the long-distant past, this is tagging yourself as part of a misogynist hate mob that has barely changed from its 4chan roots. Using that twitter hashtag is a conscious appeal to that hate mob. If you have legitimate concerns about ethics in gaming journalism (lol), then don't attach yourself to that hashtag. In fact, we've seen the opposite happen the whole time---conservatives who don't give a poo poo about videogames and just want to attack feminists have latched onto the tag in order to sell juice, books, and get twitter followers. Even if that's 100% true, that's still a genetic fallacy. That's like saying the Communist Revolution of Russia was completely a German plot because they gave Lenin some money and a train ticket to St. Petersburg, and therefore the revolution and all of communism was always a German plot and was somehow always need to be framed as such.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:16
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Dapper_Swindler posted:and the rest play culture warrior and get mad at big titles because they arn't all gone home Gone home is the best game. Not because it's an engaging story and a decent way to spend 2 hours or so, but because it gets the type of people who identify as gamers so mad that people like it.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:16
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Slanderer posted:The term gamergate was coined to refer to a slutshaming conspiracy theory last year. Quinn was (is?) an abusive person and an unrepentant cheater. Characterizing the reaction to her actions as slutshaming (implicitly suggesting that she did Nothing Wrong) is pretty transparent, Slanderer. I am not condoning death threats or blatant misogynistic hate! Slanderer posted:conservatives who don't give a poo poo about videogames and just want to attack feminists have latched onto the tag in order to sell juice, books, and get twitter followers. I believe I posted earlier in the thread about how it's impossible to criticize the left* without having the right wing show up and co-opt the criticism. I actually, sincerely, find it concerning (but not surprising) how reliably this happens, and how it makes it difficult to get any reasonable retort to stick without eventually being associated with reactionary idiots. *: criticize the left from the center, that is to say, to the political right of the left. It's obviously easy to criticize the left for not being left or inclusive or progressive enough, as happened with Bernie Sanders/minorities/etc, without having right-wing idiots show up to contaminate it.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:18
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Zeitgueist posted:Gone home is the best game. Its fine. Though what a lot of people forget is that it was originally promoted as a horror game and some felt hoodwinked by the trailers that were misleading. It might be one of the reasons it gets so much poo poo. After all, walking simulators weren't uncommon before 'Gone Home'. But the situation isn't going to happen again because of steam refunds.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:18
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Is this a forum war between GBS and D&D? I mean I am attracted to poo poo like this and I just come to this sub forum to talk about the SCOTUS ruling on same sex marriages. I have a question why do anyone care, why do people care about any of this, is this movement even as big of a deal as it was 6 months ago to allow a new thread?
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Jun 29, 2015 04:19
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Popular Thug Drink posted:are all feminists SJWs? SJW's? You mean caricatures of social justice advocacy who diminish real social justice by constantly hijacking the language to advance personal fringe crusades like trans-dragons? Because that's what guys complaining at about SJW's are always talking about or otherwise we might admit that's a shield for just whining about people might make you feel vaguely bad or guilty about your hobby as if social criticism meant you couldn't go play GTA5.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:19
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Zeitgueist posted:Gone home is the best game. I dont even hate gone home. I am just using it as an example.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:20
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everything ive ever heard about Gone Home just makes me think that the creators missed out on one hell of a nostalgia angle by failing to promote it by speaking entirely in 90s computer industry buzzwords. interactive multimedia story-telling experience!
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Jun 29, 2015 04:20
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Brannock posted:Quinn was (is?) an abusive person and an unrepentant cheater. Characterizing the reaction to her actions as slutshaming (implicitly suggesting that she did Nothing Wrong) is pretty transparent, Slanderer. so? even if she is an abuser and a philanderer, why then would there be a huge backlash of gamers centered around one woman who is a liar and a cheat? are they the morality police now? paranoid randroid posted:everything ive ever heard about Gone Home just makes me think that the creators missed out on one hell of a nostalgia angle by failing to promote it by speaking entirely in 90s computer industry buzzwords. interactive multimedia story-telling experience! there was a distressing lack of FMV
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Jun 29, 2015 04:20
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Dapper Dan posted:Its fine. Though what a lot of people forget is that it was originally promoted as a horror game and some felt hoodwinked by the trailers that were misleading. It might be one of the reasons it gets so much poo poo. After all, walking simulators weren't uncommon before 'Gone Home'. It is a horror game, though. Dapper_Swindler posted:I dont even hate gone home. I am just using it as an example. I'm just pointing out that the venn diagram of people who are super mad at SJW's and who dislike Gone Home overlap hugely.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:21
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Popular Thug Drink posted:most of this has been really circumstantial and nitpicky though, like she said the fourth level boss was actually the third level boss so she hasn't really played the game And that would still my point right though, I've basically said that a feminist critique was valid she just was doing it half assed. You're admitting that she hasn't been that solid on her work, we are only disagreeing to how dodgy her work is. Like I'm not addressing her criticism head on, which I could do, but a bunch of it would end up being "she's out to lunch on this and this" but then I'd probably go "she's right about X and she could have highlighted these examples which might be better". Popular Thug Drink posted:are all feminists SJWs? i thought most of her funding came from women who were sick of the way men speak to them on the internet. it would be silly to claim that all women who are feminists are SJWs, no? I think I and others have stated that they can be different. At the same time, yes I may have implied that only SJW outrage funded the honey badgers. A truer statement would be that outrage in general funded the honey badgers. Slanderer posted:Neither of those are anyone's worst enemy you idiot. The first is some MRAs getting scammed for 30k, and the second is Skullmaster Kane and the Bathrobed Ronin making their masterpiece that will destroy feminism forever, somehow. The only attention either have gotten are "Oh my god are you serious ahahahahhahahahahahahahahah". And people have said repeatedly that Anita Sarkessian isn't gamer's worst enemy, by a fair margin. I thought you weren't being serious about that and was going towards your more sensible point of people getting made because she cashed in big. Like if you really think Anita is gamers worst enemy, you're either ill informed or a moron.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:24
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Popular Thug Drink posted:so? even if she is an abuser and a philanderer, why then would there be a huge backlash of gamers centered around one woman who is a liar and a cheat? are they the morality police now? The backlash towards Quinn? Because they hate women. I'm specifically calling out Slanderer's characterization of Quinn's actions as, implicitly, "slutty behavior" that got slutshamed. It's minimization and whitewashing of what Quinn did and no feminist should approve of the reaction towards Gjoni's (to Gjoni specifically) speaking out about his experience.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:24
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Brannock posted:Quinn was (is?) an abusive person and an unrepentant cheater. If you aren't a victim, why do you give a poo poo. It isn't any of your business. Maybe I'm weird and different from the norm but I don't judge people harshly for sexual infidelity. I accept that people cheat, that monogamy is for many people a fool's bet. If you think Zoe Quinn's sexual infidelity is really grist for the internet, then I sure as gently caress hope you were on board with impeaching Bill Clinton for blowjobs in the 90s. Because I didn't give a poo poo about that, either; and I was even prepared to defend Anthony Weiner staying in office until he manufactured an imaginary felony to explain his actions. Keep in mind I generally consider myself on the side of furious video game nerds, but god-drat...
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Jun 29, 2015 04:24
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Shadoer posted:Even if that's 100% true, that's still a genetic fallacy. That's like saying the Communist Revolution of Russia was completely a German plot because they gave Lenin some money and a train ticket to St. Petersburg, and therefore the revolution and all of communism was always a German plot and was somehow always need to be framed as such. That's the dumbest loving analogy. The one you are trying to make is the one made by Fox News about Dylann Roof---we can't call the shooting a racist attack, even though the shooter identified as a white supremacist and wanted to start a race war! The real cause was mental illness! Brannock posted:Quinn was (is?) an abusive person and an unrepentant cheater. Characterizing the reaction to her actions as slutshaming (implicitly suggesting that she did Nothing Wrong) is pretty transparent, Slanderer. I am not condoning death threats or blatant misogynistic hate! The reaction wasn't "Oh good heavens, she's not a nice person!" It was "Look how much this slut cheated on me! Here, let me tell you what hotels she stays at and we can track her down!" Thousands of pages of theorycrafting about who she must have slept with had nothing to do with abuse
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Jun 29, 2015 04:25
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Craptacular! posted:If you aren't a victim, why do you give a poo poo. It isn't any of your business. I don't care that she cheated, but rather the circumstances surrounding it. Many people cheat, it's not necessarily the Worst Thing -- especially in a culture that overvalues monogamy when most people aren't necessarily wired for it. Please refer to my earlier posts in this thread about it.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:26
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Zeitgueist posted:It is a horror game, though. I guess people expected more of a haunted house rather than what they got, but people are dumb.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:26
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Shadoer posted:Is it? If gamergate is in opposition to a movement supporting social liberalisation in games then it is by definition reactionary. If not, what are the reasonable reasons for the creation of gamergate? The same attitudes existed in parts of gamer culture (fake girl gamers!) before the actor Adam Baldwin invented a hashtag. Shadoer posted:Yeah and lots of causes started from stupid things. Arguably the environmentalist movement was started by a white con artist pretending to be native american, and hunters who were afraid their kids wouldn't have anything to shoot. So what? You really ought to back up your claims with links — I can't find any evidence of this con artist pioneer. These early conservationists share the same goal with contemporary ones don't they? Likewise gamergate was started by people who dug up personal information on the people they disagree with, or argued about irrelevant material (the videos I don't like are infrequent! the stretch goals of the kickstarter I didn't support weren't met!) instead of arguing their points. How is that different from what is happening now, all of ten months on? Also, pointing to fallacies is a bad tactic if you're trying to change hearts and minds.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:27
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Zeitgueist posted:SJW's? You mean caricatures of social justice advocacy who diminish real social justice by constantly hijacking the language to advance personal fringe crusades like trans-dragons? But there's absolutely no reason to make a counter-movement against this type of SJW because they aren't even really a thing that exists outside of Tumblr. SJW's are the internet's new boogeyman, a made up fiction that is convenient to prop up as a strawman and say "Look upon this, ye mighty, and despair!"
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Jun 29, 2015 04:27
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All the Mario sports games feature mixed gendered sports and nobody lost their minds over it. A FIFA game have the option to do mixed gendered pickup/fantasy matches isn't absurd either.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:27
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Dapper Dan posted:I guess people expected more of a haunted house rather than what they got, but people are dumb. No argument there. I could agree if people were like "it's not long enough for $20" and I agree there, but I got it on steam discount.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:27
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i'm starting to think that gamergate isn't actually about ethics in video game journalism!
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Jun 29, 2015 04:28
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BexGu posted:How deep down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Liana Kerzner wrote almost a whole novel in a series of articles called :Why Femeinist Frequency Almost made me quit writing about video games": http://metaleater.com/video-games/feature/why-feminist-frequency-almost-made-me-quit-writing-about-video-games-part-1 She doesn't seem to understand the thesis of the videos very well. She seems to think that they claim that video games can indoctrinate people into believing particular things through exposure. I don't think that any of the videos make this claim.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:29
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Who What Now posted:But there's absolutely no reason to make a counter-movement against this type of SJW because they aren't even really a thing that exists outside of Tumblr. SJW's are the internet's new boogeyman, a made up fiction that is convenient to prop up as a strawman and say "Look upon this, ye mighty, and despair!" Pretty much yeah. I've only ever been called a SJW when I was arguing about feminism or racism, yet people always say it's about some extreme I've never encountered outside of threads specifically doing freep-thread-like deep dives looking for it.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:29
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Shadoer posted:And people have said repeatedly that Anita Sarkessian isn't gamer's worst enemy, by a fair margin. I thought you weren't being serious about that and was going towards your more sensible point of people getting made because she cashed in big. Like if you really think Anita is gamers worst enemy, you're either ill informed or a moron. You're either disingenuous or extremely ignorant. She got money not from direct sympathy with her cause, but as a response to articles about the hate speech directed at her. Her videos have comments turned off because early stuff had nothing but hate speech in the comments. If so many idiots didnt consider her a dire threat, her twitter mentions would be a better ready. Neither of the things you mentioned were able to build a brand based entirely on how many idiots were mad at them. Instead, they harnessed those same idiots in support of their hilariously dumb causes. There is really no comparison between the two.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:30
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Popular Thug Drink posted:there was a distressing lack of FMV Gone Home, starring Christopher Walken
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Jun 29, 2015 04:31
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SJW meant to be a term to describe people who want to fight for the rights of otherkins who believe who was born as Unicorn Viking to have their own bathroom, the stuff that SA would make fun off all the time. SJW in how GG use it is is "anyone who think minorities should have rights or shouldn't face death threats online". EDIT: I will kill for a FMV game in 2015, I am sure we can pick up some nerd celebrities to star in it, what is wil wheaton doing right now? Cyron fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Jun 29, 2015 |
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Jun 29, 2015 04:31
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Zeitgueist posted:No argument there. Same, definitely not worth $20. For $5 its good which is the price I got it at.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:32
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Slanderer posted:That's the dumbest loving analogy. The one you are trying to make is the one made by Fox News about Dylann Roof---we can't call the shooting a racist attack, even though the shooter identified as a white supremacist and wanted to start a race war! The real cause was mental illness! It's clear from Roof's manifesto and ideology that his attack was the product of his racist attitudes, that would be Fox ignoring facts and not a "genetic fallacy", so that's a poor analogy. I'm not sure what's wrong with my analogy, at least as an example of a "genetic fallacy", where the origin of a movement is used to discredit the entire movement despite it's merit. Like the German World War One government really did give Lenin a bag full of cash and sent him on a train to Russia to stir up poo poo there. This is historical fact. Yeah the Zoe Post was disgusting and the flashpoint of gamergate was due to an ex that decided to rant on the internet. This is also fact. That does not mean the Bolsheviks or Lenin were motivated by a sense of duty to the Kaiser and there weren't other reasons for the revolution, just as the Zoe Post doesn't mean all of gamergate is misogynist and there weren't other reasons that helped create gamergate.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:33
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Zeitgueist posted:Pretty much yeah. I've only ever been called a SJW when I was arguing about feminism or racism, yet people always say it's about some extreme I've never encountered outside of threads specifically doing freep-thread-like deep dives looking for it. The thing about "SJW" is that it once described literally insane people like certain posters who participated in the D&D feminism threads circa 2011-2012 (to use a readily understood example) who castigated and excoriated nonadherents while not doing any actual activism of their own, but over the interceding years it got adopted by the rightwing and diluted about as hard as it could possibly be diluted and ended up being a generic term to describe someone who that person disagreed with who was further left than he was on the two-dimensional political spectrum. It's a completely useless term nowadays and mostly serves as a signifier that whoever is using it is being rhetorically lazy or is crypto-rightwing.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:33
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Who What Now posted:But there's absolutely no reason to make a counter-movement against this type of SJW because they aren't even really a thing that exists outside of Tumblr. SJW's are the internet's new boogeyman, a made up fiction that is convenient to prop up as a strawman and say "Look upon this, ye mighty, and despair!" That things get blown out of proportion thanks to teenagers on Tumblr is pretty obvious, but I don't think the phenomenon is a just a boogeyman for people to freak out about. You don't have to look past this thread and people claiming "You filled up my bingo card therefore I win." It's intellectually lazy and I think it's a direct result of social media platforms enabling like-minded people to become more insular. This style of arguing isn't new, Mormons and JWs mastered the art of meme-counter-meme discussion decades ago, but it is more widespread and found in different sub-cultures than it was prior to the past few years. Let us English fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Jun 29, 2015 |
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Jun 29, 2015 04:34
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Shadoer posted:That does not mean the Bolsheviks or Lenin were motivated by a sense of duty to the Kaiser and there weren't other reasons for the revolution, just as the Zoe Post doesn't mean all of gamergate is misogynist and there weren't other reasons that helped create gamergate. Except all of gamergate is misogynist. I wasn't aware anyone even bothered to contend otherwise at this point.
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