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Dapper Dan posted:I guess people expected more of a haunted house rather than what they got, but people are dumb. The early trailers never claimed it was about a haunted house, and preview coverage was similarly limited. In the wake of games like Amnesia, people got the notion that a game about returning from school to a spooky empty house was a horror story---but the developers never lead anyone to believe this. Part of the positive reaction to the game was the subversion of what people assumed it was going to be (consequently, playing the game outside of that particular time and situation makes it lose something, I think. It can never be as good as it was on the day it came out (ayooo))
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Jun 29, 2015 04:35
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Unfunny Poster posted:All the Mario sports games feature mixed gendered sports and nobody lost their minds over it. and some of the Mario sports games have transgendered charaters. I need to play Mario Striker Charged.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:37
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zeal posted:Except all of gamergate is misogynist. I wasn't aware anyone even bothered to contend otherwise at this point. Actually, you will find that #GamerGate is a crusade for moral clarity. Please watch this series of youtube videos and allow the Light to tear away the caul over your eyes.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:37
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Shadoer posted:It's clear from Roof's manifesto and ideology that his attack was the product of his racist attitudes, that would be Fox ignoring facts and not a "genetic fallacy", so that's a poor analogy. If I punch someone and yell "Heil Hitler", that action does not exist in the vacuum. Those words have cultural context. People will (rightfully) assume I am a national-socialist and a huge piece of poo poo. If I didn't want to be associated with Nazis, I would avoid saluting the Fuhrer in such situations.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:38
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Exclamation Marx posted:If gamergate is in opposition to a movement supporting social liberalisation in games then it is by definition reactionary. After all, one way to make people listen to your message who might not otherwise be inclined to do so is to have a shame list of bad apples. It makes people do what you want simply to not be on the list.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:39
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Brannock posted:Actually, you will find that #GamerGate is a crusade for moral clarity. Please watch this series of youtube videos and allow the Light to tear away the caul over your eyes. Having watched bargain bin Kane talk about biotruths while idly swirling and untouched glass of whiskey, lo, like Saul on the road to Damascus I am smitten with truth.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:39
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Exclamation Marx posted:If gamergate is in opposition to a movement supporting social liberalisation in games then it is by definition reactionary. If not, what are the reasonable reasons for the creation of gamergate? The same attitudes existed in parts of gamer culture (fake girl gamers!) before the actor Adam Baldwin invented a hashtag. Well no, to use a comic book example both Professor Xavier and Magneto want to advance mutant rights. Magneto however wants to do it through some very unethical means, this does not mean Professor Xavier is a reactionary for opposing it. Exclamation Marx posted:You really ought to back up your claims with links — I can't find any evidence of this con artist pioneer. These early conservationists share the same goal with contemporary ones don't they? Likewise gamergate was started by people who dug up personal information on the people they disagree with, or argued about irrelevant material (the videos I don't like are infrequent! the stretch goals of the kickstarter I didn't support weren't met!) instead of arguing their points. How is that different from what is happening now, all of ten months on? Well that would be the story of Grey Owl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Owl Although I should measure that with he was a founder of the Canadian environmentalist movement. As for early conversationalist, a good portion of them were founded by hunters, hence why I framed my point that many contemporary conversationalists would find it funny and even disgusting for hunters to be conversationalists. Also no, you don't seem to understand an Argument from fallacy. You are trying to disprove my claims by utilizing a fallacy, my claims are not based in a fallacy. At the same time the argument from fallacy only applies if you've mixed in argument and have a fallacy in there, and I try to use the fallacy to disprove the entire argument. You are not providing evidence or argument to back up the claim outside of fallacy.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:39
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Brannock posted:I don't care that she cheated, but rather the circumstances surrounding it. Many people cheat, it's not necessarily the Worst Thing -- especially in a culture that overvalues monogamy when most people aren't necessarily wired for it. Please refer to my earlier posts in this thread about it. To elaborate further on what I said before--the reaction to the Zoe Post can only be described as slut shaming because it went so far beyond any reasonable reaction to her abuse. Hell, the people who hate(d) her most were a message board of literal virgins. They only cared about Eron to the extent that he gave them an excuse and a target.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:41
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Shadoer posted:Well no, to use a comic book example both Professor Xavier and Magneto want to advance mutant rights. Magneto however wants to do it through some very unethical means, this does not mean Professor Xavier is a reactionary for opposing it.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:41
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Slanderer posted:If I punch someone and yell "Heil Hitler", that action does not exist in the vacuum. Those words have cultural context. People will (rightfully) assume I am a national-socialist and a huge piece of poo poo. If I didn't want to be associated with Nazis, I would avoid saluting the Fuhrer in such situations. Well you have provided evidence that you are associated with the Nazi's. That wouldn't mean people associated with you are Nazi's, or any cause you were associated were Nazi's without more evidence. Also it's perfectly reasonable that if you then claimed you did it as a bet or you were "high on drugs", for you to be simply an rear end in a top hat rather than associated with the Nazis. Mr. Wookums posted:Seriously... Well people have problems understanding historical examples, so why not try something most geeks would know.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:42
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Brannock posted:The thing about "SJW" is that it once described literally insane people like certain posters who participated in the D&D feminism threads circa 2011-2012 (to use a readily understood example) who castigated and excoriated nonadherents while not doing any actual activism of their own, but over the interceding years it got adopted by the rightwing and diluted about as hard as it could possibly be diluted and ended up being a generic term to describe someone who that person disagreed with who was further left than he was on the two-dimensional political spectrum. It's a completely useless term nowadays and mostly serves as a signifier that whoever is using it is being rhetorically lazy or is crypto-rightwing. Yeah, you really have to look at the person being called it. It is really awful and I'd never, ever use it outside of mocking tone. I don't even use it for its original use anymore. Slanderer posted:The early trailers never claimed it was about a haunted house, and preview coverage was similarly limited. In the wake of games like Amnesia, people got the notion that a game about returning from school to a spooky empty house was a horror story---but the developers never lead anyone to believe this. Part of the positive reaction to the game was the subversion of what people assumed it was going to be (consequently, playing the game outside of that particular time and situation makes it lose something, I think. It can never be as good as it was on the day it came out (ayooo)) Ah, that makes sense. I just repeated what I heard because I wondered why people could hate it so much when there were tons of other walking simulators (Minerva, Dear Esther, etc.). I don't get the hate it gets. It is not a perfect ten, but it isn't crap either. It is good for what it is, just too expensive. And another thing I never understood is the 'Not a Game Arguments'. It is very simple. A game is just a piece of media which requires active participation by the consumer of that media instead of passive participation (reading, watching movies, etc). Even 'Her Story' where you just watch videos is a game, because you have to figure out what is going on in each video and piece the mystery together yourself. That's all a game is.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:42
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zeal posted:Having watched bargain bin Kane talk about biotruths while idly swirling and untouched glass of whiskey, lo, like Saul on the road to Damascus I am smitten with truth. RIP zeal, went blind from the light reflecting off Kane's freaking bald-rear end pate
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Jun 29, 2015 04:42
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Slanderer posted:To elaborate further on what I said before--the reaction to the Zoe Post can only be described as slut shaming because it went so far beyond any reasonable reaction to her abuse. Hell, the people who hate(d) her most were a message board of literal virgins. They only cared about Eron to the extent that he gave them an excuse and a target. I can agree with this particular point.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:43
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Craptacular! posted:The question is whether the movement is "supporting social liberalisation" or shaming the creators of this stuff into supporting it. There are people making games that seek to question and reform society and cultural norms. They also are relatively obscure and low budget. A lot of people don't have a problem with the idea that these games exist, but instead have a problem with trying to campaign for commercial development to doing the same. It goes against western social libertarianism of people making what they want to make, by coercing them into taking up progressive ideals and shaming them if they do not. The public sphere: known enemy of pluralistic capitalism. How is discourse coercion?
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Jun 29, 2015 04:44
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Slanderer posted:To elaborate further on what I said before--the reaction to the Zoe Post can only be described as slut shaming because it went so far beyond any reasonable reaction to her abuse. Hell, the people who hate(d) her most were a message board of literal virgins. Since when have internet denizens ever been reasonable? An Hero was an original running joke about a suicide. The backbone of chan culture has been mentally twisted for years.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:44
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Like here's something more productive, can you guys start explaining your views here on "out groups" and "privilege". People on the anti side keep alluding to or dropping points from some form of theories on "out groups" and "privilege" that somehow explain and prove that Gamergate has to be misogynist, yet I haven't heard a real explanation of them or how they are suppose to work in the real world. Care to explain how this theory works and it's application to gamergate?
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Jun 29, 2015 04:45
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zeal posted:Except all of gamergate is misogynist. I wasn't aware anyone even bothered to contend otherwise at this point. People who say things like: "I don't really care about gamergate, but I kind of understand how... (600 words later) ...thus by examining Zoe Quinn's sexual history, the cultural Marxist plot becomes clear"
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Jun 29, 2015 04:46
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:Since when have internet denizens ever been reasonable? An Hero was an original running joke about a suicide. The backbone of chan culture has been mentally twisted for years. I am also sure the mudkip meme also come from a shity origin, like mass bullying of a mentally handicap kid shity. 4 Chan is a shity place that somehow rooted into normal internet culture even without knowing.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:48
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Cyron posted:I am also sure the mudkip meme also come from a shity origin, like mass bullying of a mentally handicap kid shity. 4 Chan is a shity place that somehow rooted into normal internet culture even without knowing. Lolcats on peoples office desk, Success Kid posters, Grumpy Cat movies. gently caress This Memed Earth.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:50
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Craptacular! posted:The question is whether the movement is "supporting social liberalisation" or shaming the creators of this stuff into supporting it. I think this distinction is fairly irrelevant when opposition to it manifests itself in the misogynistic way it has. Like yeah, misguided witch hunts happen. Dumb but well-intentioned people sometimes miss the point. That doesn't invalidate social justice.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:52
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Mortal Kombat is the ultimate in gender equality. Johnny Cage's dick punch works just as well on men AND women.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:52
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:Lolcats on peoples office desk, Success Kid posters, Grumpy Cat movies. worst part about grumpy cat is that the cat have a illness and the owners named it tard. OMG JC a Bomb! posted:Mortal Kombat is the ultimate in gender equality. Johnny Cage's dick punch works just as well on men AND women. it should really, punching a woman down there does hurt, not as mush as men, it have nerves.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:54
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Jack Gladney posted:The public sphere: known enemy of pluralistic capitalism. How is discourse coercion? Political interest groups have been putting companies and organizations "on notice" as a list of bad faith actors for a long time now. I'll admit I tend to passively participate in most LGBTQ boycotts, but really what exactly are we trying to accomplish with such a boycott? We're trying to coerce change by appealing to their capitalist need for as much money as they can get, and hope that the needs of capitalism will outweigh their desire for political posturing. The videos that made Feminist Frequency a hot-button discussion topic are just a laundry list of mainstream games that Anita felt were insensitive to women. It is basically a shame list. If you think it wasn't a shame list, what do you think she was trying to accomplish in creating this large montage of problematic game sequences? The difference is that asking companies not to give money to hateful organizations is different than policing the contents of mainstream culture, at least to the average person. Cultural policing is evocative of numerous dystopian warnings we've seen made about censorship in the past century, whereas asking a corporation to not invest in coercing democracy is not unless you're one of those "corporations are people and their money is free speech" Mitt Romney types.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:54
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Exclamation Marx posted:I think this distinction is fairly irrelevant when opposition to it manifests itself in the misogynistic way it has. Like yeah, misguided witch hunts happen. Dumb but well-intentioned people sometimes miss the point. That doesn't invalidate social justice. Yeah but no one is invalidating social justice in of itself, at least if I understand it as wanting equality between people, equal opportunity, and create a more liberal society. It's kind of the tactics being used. Also yeah, see witch hunts happen, but that doesn't invalidate social justice. Just like the Zoe Post doesn't invalidate gamergate. 
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Jun 29, 2015 04:55
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OMG JC a Bomb! posted:Mortal Kombat is the ultimate in gender equality. Johnny Cage's dick punch works just as well on men AND women. His daughter does it in the new game.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:56
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Dapper Dan posted:Ah, that makes sense. I just repeated what I heard because I wondered why people could hate it so much when there were tons of other walking simulators (Minerva, Dear Esther, etc.). I don't get the hate it gets. It is not a perfect ten, but it isn't crap either. It is good for what it is, just too expensive. And another thing I never understood is the 'Not a Game Arguments'. It is very simple. A game is just a piece of media which requires active participation by the consumer of that media instead of passive participation (reading, watching movies, etc). Even 'Her Story' where you just watch videos is a game, because you have to figure out what is going on in each video and piece the mystery together yourself. That's all a game is. In the aftermath, "interactive fiction" was thrown around a few times, but the consensus seemed to be that there wasnt really anything to be gained from quibbling about what is or isnt a game. Especially for an indie game, it got a lot of coverage at the time--partially from the fact that the developers were pretty closed about specific details, partially from the novelty of a game that was more akin to one of the quiet sections in between action in something like Half Life 2, and partially from the devs doing good PR*. It provided a really polished experience that was pretty refreshing, and reviewers loved it accordingly. The "refreshing" aspect is problematic, though, since a lot of the game audience doesn't have the same perspective (and experiences) as reviewers. What might be tired and boring to a reviewer is still cool and new to a lot of (younger) gamers, and so a portion of the audience is alienated from reviewers. This is impossible to really deal with in this industry, since games are still relatively new and the medium is still evolving. Good reviewers will give their opinions, and not try to guess what their audience's opinions are. Until the medium matures, a disconnect between audience and reviewer will probably always exist to some extent. *It's important to point out how indie game PR works, because the GG crowd has many times frothed with rage over developers and reviews being friends. Big studios have actual PR people, and a lot of them end up befriending reviewers (from working together and drinking together). This doesn't really translate into better reviews (aside from unconscious effects), because everyone involved has a job to do and few PR people will take a review personally. For indie studios, the developers are often their own PR representatives, which means they are interacting with editorial staff directly at shows, in demos, and on livestreams and podcasts. Just like most of the editors for Gamespot might know the PR guys for Activision, they'll also know the indie devs, because it's impossible not to.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:56
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Exclamation Marx posted:I think this distinction is fairly irrelevant when opposition to it manifests itself in the misogynistic way it has. Like yeah, misguided witch hunts happen. Dumb but well-intentioned people sometimes miss the point. That doesn't invalidate social justice. It doesnt invalidate the idea, only the execution and its practitioners. Its hard to take any of these self professed twitter warriors seriously when they are also dumb (suey park) and awful (randi harper).
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Jun 29, 2015 04:56
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Shadoer posted:Well you have provided evidence that you are associated with the Nazi's. That wouldn't mean people associated with you are Nazi's, or any cause you were associated were Nazi's without more evidence. Also it's perfectly reasonable that if you then claimed you did it as a bet or you were "high on drugs", for you to be simply an rear end in a top hat rather than associated with the Nazis. If I tag a post #gamergate people can safely assume that I agree with the cause of doxxing female developers, or that I like to hang around with people who do and enjoy a laugh or two about it.
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Jun 29, 2015 04:59
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:It doesnt invalidate the idea, only the execution and its practitioners. Its hard to take any of these self professed twitter warriors seriously when they are also dumb (suey park) and awful (randi harper). Who are some people on the internet who support social justice who aren't dumb and awful?
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Jun 29, 2015 05:01
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Really though, I genuinely want to hear the theory behind how gamergate is misogynist because an out group wants in and how this is applicable in reality. I'm not new to socialist theories here, and I have a grasp on what privilege is and what it means. However I really don't see how the idea that "white people enjoy social privileges they are oblivious to that other groups don't enjoy" and "women are an outgroup" come together to mean gamergate has to be a misogynist reactionary reaction to criticism of their cultural products. Like there's a few steps I'm missing here and I'm not sure what theory this is even working under, or why this theory would have to be true to the exclusion of all other evidence and argument. I'm not sure what this theory you keep alluding to even is, I want to say cultural marxism but that's a term loaded with conspiracy theory and I'd like to think this theory is more sensible than that. So come one, how does this work? Slanderer posted:If I tag a post #gamergate people can safely assume that I agree with the cause of doxxing female developers, or that I like to hang around with people who do and enjoy a laugh or two about it. So you're saying that had gamergate went with a different name, say gamersagainstcorruption, then all of the framing of it being misogynist would never have happened? Really?
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Jun 29, 2015 05:02
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Shadoer posted:So you're saying that had gamergate went with a different name, say gamersagainstcorruption, then all of the framing of it being misogynist would never have happened? Really? If people actually wanted to talk about ethics, they would divorce themselves from the twitter hatemob circlejerk. Yet, people keep using the hashtag and makes claims like "well, i dont agree with all the things those rascals do, but they make some good points..." because this lets them retain the support (and, more importantly, retweets) of the group as a whole. Even people claiming to be "neutral" start using the tag, because it's a loving easy-button to get outrage-addicted feminist haters to retweet your posts, no matter how banal and terrible they are.
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Jun 29, 2015 05:05
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Sharkie posted:Who are some people on the internet who support social justice who aren't dumb and awful? "None of us can think we are exempt from concerns for the poor and for social justice." -Pope Francis (@Pontifex)
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Jun 29, 2015 05:06
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Sharkie posted:Who are some people on the internet who support social justice who aren't dumb and awful? i only know the dumb ones because they are loud and involved with this far more than any sane person. id assume everyone else is too busy getting things done. id say erik kain and david auerbach if i have to name names.
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Jun 29, 2015 05:09
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Mormon Star Wars posted:"None of us can think we are exempt from concerns for the poor and for social justice." -Pope Francis (@Pontifex) god I love our liberal pope. he is better then the one that looked like a sith lord.
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Jun 29, 2015 05:11
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Slanderer posted:If people actually wanted to talk about ethics, they would divorce themselves from the twitter hatemob circlejerk. Yet, people keep using the hashtag and makes claims like "well, i dont agree with all the things those rascals do, but they make some good points..." because this lets them retain the support (and, more importantly, retweets) of the group as a whole. Even people claiming to be "neutral" start using the tag, because it's a loving easy-button to get outrage-addicted feminist haters to retweet your posts, no matter how banal and terrible they are. Except 1. You can't moderate a hashtag and there's nothing preventing the hatemob circlejerk from just migrating., 2. Gamergate is a fairly fitting name and is fairly gender neutral. 3. By a lot of people's claims here (which are fallacy) gamergate hashtag will be still seen as misogynistic as the flashpoint was the Zoepost. Logically this would apply to any succeeding hastag. So really, I don't think changing names would have done the "good people" any favors. Edit: Also Lol at ExclamationMarx trying to claim that we think Gamergate is Lenin in the DnDChat thread. Cause when you realize you're spouting off fallacy, it's better to go to another thread and weakly mock it to hide your salty tears 
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Jun 29, 2015 05:14
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:i only know the dumb ones because they are loud and involved with this far more than any sane person. id assume everyone else is too busy getting things done. id say erik kain and david auerbach if i have to name names. what about George takei? he seem to focus more on issues with LBGT and sometimes Asians culture I don't think he does a ton with feminist issues.
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Jun 29, 2015 05:14
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:i only know the dumb ones because they are loud and involved with this far more than any sane person. id assume everyone else is too busy getting things done. id say erik kain and david auerbach if i have to name names. Erik Kain supported video game piracy though, we can thank Ben Kuchera for taking to Twitter to get mad about it.
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Jun 29, 2015 05:17
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Cyron posted:what about George takei? he seem to focus more on issues with LBGT and sometimes Asians culture I don't think he does a ton with feminist issues. i thought of him and patton oswalt shortly after i hit post, actually 
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Jun 29, 2015 05:17
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Shadoer posted:So really, I don't think changing names would have done the "good people" any favors. There have in fact been several instances when GGers started up a new hashtag for some side project or just as a joke and all of their usual opponents on Twitter immediately started shouting about how this is a GG tag and you shouldn't be fooled by it. So this has in fact been directly tested, and every time the test came up negative. Not to mention how Sad Puppies was accused of being a GG plot because one guy Tweeted about it a few times. In certain parts of the internet, GG has effectively become an all-purpose boogeyman in much the same way that MRA did a long time ago. 
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Jun 29, 2015 05:26
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Shadoer posted:Except No, you're right, there is nothing unethical about consciously drawing on the support of misogynists to get our your totally-valid criticism about journalist ethics. Sure, it means that anyone searching the hashtag will see your posts right above posts calling for the rape of all feminists. But face it, you're okay with that being your audience at that point, and any retweet is a good retweet. I mean, yeah, Mr. Fart could jump ships to your hashtag too, but why lose the support of the one explicitly created because a woman had sex? Not using the hashtag would mean no one saw your posts, and we just can't have that. So, of course you had no choice but to tag your post #gamergate, because you need the support of a hate group, even though you claim not to agree with them
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Jun 29, 2015 05:28
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