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Shadoer posted:Like here's something more productive, can you guys start explaining your views here on "out groups" and "privilege". Shadoer posted:Also I really would like the explanation of how this theory of "out groups" and "privilege" makes gamergate inherently reactionary and misogynist. You keep referencing it and others keep alluding to it, but no one I've seen post yet has explained it or how it's suppose to work. It's clearly not a mainstream outlook of the world, so I think I can be forgiven for not knowing immediately what you're talking about. "Privilege" most often refers to, in general terms, "unearned, and largely unacknowledged, advantages, even when those advantages aren’t discriminatory." As for how tribalism relates to gamergate: Dapper Dan posted:To be honest, I never got the criticism that she wasn't a gamer. What does it matter? People analyze things outside of their areas of interest all the time. When I was doing psych research, I stumbled over a paper that did a critique of slasher films as morality plays. The virgin always lived and the promiscuous and those that used drugs were killed (it was done in the late '80s/early '90s. I wish I saved a copy). It was an interesting read, but they most certainly were not fans of the genre. However, there still exists the very important perception that Anita is an outsider, which has fueled and continues to fuel much of the reaction. You can see this in-group/out-group thinking illustrated very well by the following Penny Arcade comic.  Note the phrase "our heritage." The simple matter of games becoming more mainstream and catching on with the "popular kids" and "jocks" and "bullies who beat them up in P.E." was in and of itself an affront. If they hadn't played Kid Icarus (or NES games in general) they were NOT part of the in-group. The inverse sort of applies to Anita - if she got into gaming with the NES and back into gaming with the Wii and mostly plays mobile and quirky indie games on the PC, then that makes her an outsider. She didn't get into it with the Playstation Generation, she doesn't purchase and consume the most expensive AAA blockbusters (the subject of her "not a fan" comment), end of story. Shadoer posted:No as stated before, my main personal concern is censorship. I haven't found evidence of a misogynist conspiracy outside a fringe part of it that is routinely condemned. http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s2fjne http://www.twitlonger.com/show/nh2uij     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KBGfDQE3-s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-9uLKZmxOw&t=267s  2) In order to get to "Framing gamers" Shadoer posted:No the PR ploy is "hey people are saying the industry sucks, let's keep calling them misogynist so we don't have to do anything". Shadoer posted:Not really. Like if we accept your argument that gamergate is a cover for misogynists as truth, why shouldn't we consider that accusing gamergate of being a cover for misogynists isn't a cynical PR ploy? Shadoer posted:...However Occam's Razer would find the cynical PR ploy more likely as companies have resorted to framing issues in such ways to garner sympathy in the past, or at least it's any less likely than the "misogynist conspiracy route"  Shadoer posted:Like an Occam's Razor test would find the idea that people would use "ethics in gaming" as a cover for misogynistic harassment unlikely. More likely people who want to harass women will use a number of causes as cover if the feel the need, like how anarchists normally use protests at cover for their activities... INH5 posted:I've never understood this idea. Why would internet trolls need a smokescreen? They're trolls on the internet. Russian proxy servers and burner accounts provide them with all of the cover they could ever need. They don't need a "smokescreen," as Anita was a target of channers and redditors before gamergate, before the Quinnspiracy. But they enjoy and benefit from one. Assepoester fucked around with this message at 10:26 on Jun 29, 2015 |
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Jun 29, 2015 09:59
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botany posted:And how is that a bad thing. If I write a positive review for a game, people can infer I like the game, right? How does me saying "I gave them money on patreon / kickstarter / whatever" say more than that? Especially since RPS actually got criticized for mentioning upcoming games fundraising efforts since it was seen as RPS trying to influence people to fund those games. Obviously if the game devs give me money I have to disclose that, but even journalists are allowed to fund things, surely. Funding things is fine, but many see a journalist putting money towards a game as a sign of a personal investment in the game's success beyond "I happened to review/get a preview of this and thought it was good" and some feel that there should be a disclaimer of that. If they plug a struggling indie game's kickstarter, that's all well and good, but people feel they should know if the writer is also pals with the game's creator. Unfunny Poster posted:Why aren't the GamerGate people putting their efforts towards getting the AAA publishers to stop doing lovely anti-consumer practices? There was that massive backlash against paid steam mods for skyrim that most people both in and outside of GG opposed. Conspicuously however, certain prominent web journalism sites jumped to declare the practice the Next Great Thing http://www.polygon.com/2015/4/27/8496523/steam-paid-mods-skyrim-opinion-argument http://www.pcgamer.com/paid-mods-wont-kill-modding-and-might-make-it-better/ Despite the efforts of these hacks, Steam got rid of paid mods within a week
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Jun 29, 2015 10:01
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The Droid posted:Eron felt that he had been emotionally manipulated and abused, I do not recall him ever calling her a slut or insulting her weight, and IIRC he only posted the Zoepost in a few places, SA being the first. You heard it here, posting a 9000 word manifesto about a girl who cheated on you isn't calling her a slut; and shopping this manifesto around multiple forums until you can organise a personal army is something done in good faith. The Droid posted:Because making the viral mocking phrase something sarcastic can lead to people missing the point/people only hearing part of it. If I just walked around saying "Brutus is an honorable man" without any context, people are going to get the wrong idea. Jesus christ how autistic are you?
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Jun 29, 2015 10:03
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Proof that meme phrase is good can be seen by the reaction in this thread.
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Jun 29, 2015 10:04
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The Droid posted:Because making the viral mocking phrase something sarcastic can lead to people missing the point/people only hearing part of it. If I just walked around saying "Brutus is an honorable man" without any context, people are going to get the wrong idea.
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Jun 29, 2015 10:10
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gamergate is full of loving retards uwu
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Jun 29, 2015 10:10
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The Droid posted:There was that massive backlash against paid steam mods for skyrim that most people both in and outside of GG opposed. Conspicuously however, certain prominent web journalism sites jumped to declare the practice the Next Great Thing So basically, despite some overlap GamerGate had no sizable influence that could be attributed directly to them with the paid mods situation, and people who disagreed with them were somehow only doing it because "SJWs"? Mekchu fucked around with this message at 10:21 on Jun 29, 2015 |
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Jun 29, 2015 10:17
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Unfunny Poster posted:So basically, despite some overlap GamerGate had no sizable influence that could be attributed directly to them with the paid mods situation, and people who disagreed with them were somehow only doing it because "SJWs"? Well according to most pro-GG people I spoke with, getting rid of paid mods was due solely to the noble efforts of the people trying to waste Valve's fax toner.
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Jun 29, 2015 10:26
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Unfunny Poster posted:So basically, despite some overlap GamerGate had no sizable influence that could be attributed directly to them with the paid mods situation, and people who disagreed with them were somehow only doing it because "SJWs"? I don't think anyone thought they were doing it "because SJWs" but rather that they come to see it as these journalists ragging on companies over social issues that they may see as trivial/arbitrary/poorly founded while at the same time defending practices most people would consider terrible.
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Jun 29, 2015 10:29
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I really miss the old thread where we laughed at people like Sargon of Akhad and Moviebob, while mocking people on the thread stupid enough to take a side or demented enough to take either perspective to the extreme. We also had some nice chats about Vampire the masquerade and Phantasy star 4. Good times  EDIT-Also tezzor was way more fun than creepy autocrats who want everyone who isnt a 'femminist' removed from society. Zombiejack fucked around with this message at 10:44 on Jun 29, 2015 |
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Jun 29, 2015 10:32
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Chasterson posted:Probably because it started when some guy publicly posted a diatribe about what a slut his girlfriend was and how her slutyness was ruining games journalism. It should be noted that this never happened and this person hasn't read the diatribe he's complaining about, and that this is probably the biggest problem with Gamergate's opposition; ignorance and/or delusion.
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Jun 29, 2015 10:37
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The actual problem with the "opposition" is that they're liberals who want to get rid of those people. This applies equally well to GG and their sympathisers, who similarly have no real workable goals or achievements.
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Jun 29, 2015 10:44
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Broniki posted:It should be noted that this never happened and this person hasn't read the diatribe he's complaining about, and that this is probably the biggest problem with Gamergate's opposition; ignorance and/or delusion. No, I read this awful diatribe with my own eyes and it's probably archived all over the Internet, you're completely full of poo poo.
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Jun 29, 2015 10:50
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These kinds of post end up revealing what GG is:INH5 posted:Not to mention how Sad Puppies was accused of being a GG plot because one guy Tweeted about it a few times. In certain parts of the internet, GG has effectively become an all-purpose boogeyman in much the same way that MRA did a long time ago. Broniki posted:It should be noted that this never happened and this person hasn't read the diatribe he's complaining about, and that this is probably the biggest problem with Gamergate's opposition; ignorance and/or delusion. Pro-GG goons who probably fancy themselves smart and handsome posters are incapable of portraying GG as anything but defense of what GG "really is". Look at this thread and you''ll notice it: the express purpose of GG is to defend GG. Internet people use GG as a boogeyman. SJWs harass and stalk GGers. The media doesn't like GG. People who oppose GG are idiots. So on and so on. The actual goals and achievements fall to the wayside because even GGers realise that they're not the most inspiring: "cleaner" advertainment and money to charities. The main purpose is to defend GG. From who? SJWs, mostly. And you can't actually get rid of SJWs. And that's the beauty of it: you can have an eternal "war" against SJWs. GG is forever, because it's goals are impossible. It'll probably last longer than any of us expect. (This of course applies to AGG as well, which is even more damning of GG). Archer666 posted:Games journalism sites are smaller, so its easier to hit them than say...Activision or EA. Anything that gg can do against Activision or EA is easily drowned out by the people who don't care about this and just buy games they enjoy from them. Which is just another way of saying that GG can't actually do anything substantial. It's more about the feeling of doing something than actually doing something.
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Jun 29, 2015 11:00
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some of u people are hosed up
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Jun 29, 2015 11:04
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:
I suspect that It'd loose a lot of momentum if sites stopped trying to build a slightly shacky narrative with it.
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Jun 29, 2015 11:07
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quote:Some would call Sarkeesian's on-camera plaid shirt style a symptom of "honorary guy syndrome." Honorary guys are women in male-dominated environments who trade some of their feminine identifiers for the increased respect afforded men. It's considered what's called a patriarchal bargain. This was called into sharp focus when the "Boob Frequency" porn parody appeared online, juxtaposing Sarkeesian's lady lumberlack style with the exposed breasts of porn star Princess Kora.
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Jun 29, 2015 11:14
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Broniki posted:It should be noted that this never happened and this person hasn't read the diatribe he's complaining about, and that this is probably the biggest problem with Gamergate's opposition; ignorance and/or delusion. quote:And I keep thinking back on this and I’m like “Five guys. Man. she cheated on me with five guys? Five guys.”
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Jun 29, 2015 11:15
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:
Pretty much. Everyone knows that a visible ethics policy doesn't really change anything. If anything, people will hide their tracks even better now if they're doing shady poo poo.
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Jun 29, 2015 11:21
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Cardboard Box A posted:"Out groups" simply refers to tribalism. Okay I have to admit that actually makes sense to me. Also to add into that portion of you case, these articles were posted in the D&D chat thread about "fake geek girls" from 2012 which I myself think was a really weird sentiment. http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/11/13/hey-quasi-pretty-not-hot-girl-you-are-more-pathetic-than-the-real-nerds-tony-harris/ http://geekout.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/24/booth-babes-need-not-apply/ So yeah I can concede that this sort of force is prevalent in the extremes of gamergate, and probably part of it's driving force. At the same time I think it's a stretch to say that all of gamergate, or even a majority is pushed simply by a desire to keep out a group of people. Cardboard Box A posted:
Right, and I have condemned harassment as well as the majority of gamergate. I'd say there's a difference between "harassment and death threats are wrong" and like those people punished as opposed to "any criticism offered is part of the harassment campaign". Cardboard Box A posted:2) In order to get to "Framing gamers" Probably, wouldn't be the first time assholes have subverted a good cause for their own ends. Cardboard Box A posted:Before we get to the "however" - that's a good analogy to how much of the chans operate, yes... True. At the same time, it's arguably that many people who are anti gamergate simply utilize the cause of "defending women online from creepy harassing gamers" as a cover to doxx and harass people themselves, and there's a fair amount of evidence as well.
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Jun 29, 2015 11:31
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:
Well that's pretty disingenuous. The reason why we are defending gamergate so much in this thread is because a bunch of people have come into here to attack it, preventing any other discussion. And since the main attack on gamergate is that it is inherently misogynist and all other causes it purports to support are simply a smoke screen to harass women, it's hard to discuss anything else. Like the debate in the thread has veered other ways, like into areas of if companies refusing to sell certain games count as censorship or if it's only censorship if the government does it, but then the various posters in the thread then bring it back to an attack of "gamergate is a misogynist conspiracy". A better question is why you guys are so obsessed with it being a misogynist conspiracy as opposed to anything else, or willing to debate anything else.
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Jun 29, 2015 11:36
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Because quite frankly the only thing I've ever heard gamergate actually do is yell at women and their allies on twitter. Does gamergate actually have a program? Do they stand for X and Y, do they argue against A and B? If so, what tangible actions have they taken to support these goals? What successes have they had? All I ever hear about - literally - is them harrassing women. That might of course in theory be due to skewed reporting, but gamersgate seems to be pretty vocal, so I wonder why I'm not hearing about their legitimate attempts at going after industry corruption.
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Jun 29, 2015 11:42
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These days most of the dedicated gaters I see on twitter are either pundits that profit from gg-related content (milo, sargon, whatever person with a blue filter avatar) or edgy 4chan kids with orgasming anime children on avatars who can't construct a phrase without "BTFO" or "top kek" spiced in. It can be said that the shitshow poisoned the well so you see ordinary gamers sometimes sharing the gg talking points, but it mostly says that gamers (in "gamer as a lifestyle" way) in general are not smart or kind people (have you really expected them to be?) It would be hillarious down the line if the aging conservatives of 2040 are going to reminiscence about this circus as the moment of discovering their political awareness.
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Jun 29, 2015 11:43
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 i just want to beat women, and you loving sjws make fun of me
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Jun 29, 2015 11:49
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fatherboxx posted:These days most of the dedicated gaters I see on twitter are either pundits that profit from gg-related content (milo, sargon, whatever person with a blue filter avatar) or edgy 4chan kids with orgasming anime children on avatars who can't construct a phrase without "BTFO" or "top kek" spiced in. would you be surprised if i told you most nerds dont pay attention to the news, and being labeled a hate campaign by mainstream news sites were probably their first major exposure to identity politics? also, breitbart scooping them up by the shovelful with "pro" articles wasnt an accident. republican sites are actually admiring their ability to shrug off negative press InsanityIsCrazy fucked around with this message at 11:59 on Jun 29, 2015 |
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Jun 29, 2015 11:53
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Broniki posted:It should be noted that this never happened and this person hasn't read the diatribe he's complaining about, and that this is probably the biggest problem with Gamergate's opposition; ignorance and/or delusion. Brannock posted:Quinn was (is?) an abusive person and an unrepentant cheater. Characterizing the reaction to her actions as slutshaming (implicitly suggesting that she did Nothing Wrong) is pretty transparent, Slanderer. I am not condoning death threats or blatant misogynistic hate! However, the extremely popular videos that were the subject of Adam Baldwin's original gamergate tweet... the marshalling of a personal army via salacious sex gossip... the focus (thanks to Eron) on Quinn herself far more than the members of the press who allegedly extorted sex for coverage... the quasi-revenge porn spreading and sending of her nudes to family and friends and known associates... the raid IRC... reddit and chan culture... the entire "5 guys" meme... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4bILqkO7DY                         http://www.buzzfeed.com/josephbernstein/the-man-who-sparked-gamergate-regrets-the-harassment-but-say       ...yeah, the slut shaming going on was downright minimal. Bonus SA reference:  InsanityIsCrazy posted:Since when have internet denizens ever been reasonable? An Hero was an original running joke about a suicide. The backbone of chan culture has been mentally twisted for years. 
Assepoester fucked around with this message at 13:38 on Jun 29, 2015 |
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Jun 29, 2015 11:58
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Bastard Tetris posted:No, I read this awful diatribe with my own eyes and it's probably archived all over the Internet, you're completely full of poo poo. Let's see it then. If you're that certain that it exists and it's archived then you can easily show me it. Phobophilia posted:
Where does this mention games journalism.
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Jun 29, 2015 12:03
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botany posted:Because quite frankly the only thing I've ever heard gamergate actually do is yell at women and their allies on twitter. Does gamergate actually have a program? Do they stand for X and Y, do they argue against A and B? If so, what tangible actions have they taken to support these goals? What successes have they had? All I ever hear about - literally - is them harrassing women. That might of course in theory be due to skewed reporting, but gamersgate seems to be pretty vocal, so I wonder why I'm not hearing about their legitimate attempts at going after industry corruption. They got a few sites to publicly announce changes in editorial policy to keep individual contributors for writing gush pieces on their roommates' games or whatever, even if the editors of those sites don't contend it ever happened to begin with. They also "leaked" a "secret' games press newsgroup full of banal gossip about nothing, and they didn't discover it themselves, they just happened to blow up at the same time some guy was looking to sling poo poo at a former employer. That's pretty much it.
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Jun 29, 2015 12:12
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im sort of "Scandinavian socialist", is anybody else liek that??????
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Jun 29, 2015 12:13
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The cases of Jade Raymond and Jennifer Hepler perfectly display the "outsider" mentality and the attack on perceived threats. Jennifer Hepler was one of the chief writers for Dragon Age 2. She expressed the opinion that she really doesn't like some aspects of gameplay and would much rather have the option to have a simplified system where she could play the game in a very simple way and enjoy the stuff she liked, such as the world development and story and such. She was utterly destroyed by 'gamers', despite it being a fairly innocuous statement. She had absolutely no influence on implementing such a thing, being as how she was just the writer, but all the same she became the target of everything that was wrong with an outsider infecting the world of games. The stuff that was thrown at her was vile. There was also the case of Jade Raymond, a very senior game developer who managed to provoke the ire of Gamers by... existing? She did what every other producer of a game tends to do: Do publicity for it, talk about the development process, and some of the finer aspects of the game in question. Her years of experience, seniority of position, and competence at her job all counted for nothing, she was treated as an outsider being used as 'the pretty face' to sell a game. quote:Ubisoft are the ones who blatantly exploited Jade Raymond's good looks and sexuality; every single interview on AC I've seen building up to the game's release, every single presentation was carried out by Ms. Raymond. And now, what do you know?! When you play with fire, when you tease desperate geeks with lots of free time on their hands, you get burned. While Jade's hotness was working to their advantage in promoting the game, then all was all right, but now that they see the other side of that coin, they are crying privacy rights. One of the many thoughtful discussions on how Jade Raymond, producer of Assassin's Creed, who helped build Ubisoft Toronto, got everything she had coming to her for having the audacity to speak about her game. Perhaps GamerGate would have the moral high ground if they picked these two controversies, or any other countless ones, as the starting point for their crusade against unethical behavior in the video game industry.
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Jun 29, 2015 12:17
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PaletteSwappedNinja posted:They got a few sites to publicly announce changes in editorial policy to keep individual contributors for writing gush pieces on their roommates' games or whatever, even if the editors of those sites don't contend it ever happened to begin with. They also "leaked" a "secret' games press newsgroup full of banal gossip about nothing, and they didn't discover it themselves, they just happened to blow up at the same time some guy was looking to sling poo poo at a former employer. That's pretty much it. What was the gossip about?
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Jun 29, 2015 12:19
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It was a simpler time with Jade Raymond, when people mocking her were just YCS weirdos and not atheist vloggers with a thousand-strong following. Still managed to scare her off from appearing publicly forever, despite her retaining the position at Ubisoft until the release of Unity.
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Jun 29, 2015 12:27
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Here's something I don't understand- why didn't all of the harassment that Chris-Chan got ever receive national attention?
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Jun 29, 2015 12:28
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Hadaka Apron posted:Here's something I don't understand- why didn't all of the harassment that Chris-Chan got ever receive national attention? Don't you check the news at all? It's flooded with stuff about the attacks on Chris-Chanity.
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Jun 29, 2015 12:31
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Broniki posted:Where does this mention games journalism. Why some of those Five Guys were games journalists, and this got spun into a massive conspiracy theory involving Cultural Marxism. I wonder what constantly shifting goalpost you will move to next in this disingenuous quest.
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Jun 29, 2015 12:34
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Broniki posted:Let's see it then. If you're that certain that it exists and it's archived then you can easily show me it.  Broniki posted:Where does this mention games journalism. Ddraig posted:There was also the case of Jade Raymond, a very senior game developer who managed to provoke the ire of Gamers by... existing? Fun fact: a goon drew a comic featuring Jade Raymond pleasuring gamers while wearing a green and white striped bikini as mentioned in said made up rumor. Ubisoft sued SA and he was banned for his trouble. http://n4g.com/news/84935/ubisoft-threatens-to-sue-comedy-forum-over-jade-raymond-assassins-creed Hadaka Apron posted:Here's something I don't understand- why didn't all of the harassment that Chris-Chan got ever receive national attention? Broniki posted:Same reason no one cared about Peter Coffin when he was being stalked over his fake wife despite being in the same social circle as anti-GG. http://www.villagevoice.com/news/internet-comedian-peter-coffins-fake-asian-girlfriend-outed-in-blogger-feud-with-xiaxue-6659458 Zanzibar Ham posted:Don't you check the news at all? It's flooded with stuff about the attacks on Chris-Chanity. Assepoester fucked around with this message at 12:42 on Jun 29, 2015 |
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Jun 29, 2015 12:35
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Hadaka Apron posted:Here's something I don't understand- why didn't all of the harassment that Chris-Chan got ever receive national attention? Same reason no one cared about Peter Coffin when he was being stalked over his fake wife despite being in the same social circle as anti-GG.
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Jun 29, 2015 12:36
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is gamergate really still a thing  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 29, 2015 12:39
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Other logical jumping off points for the crusade against unethical practices: Jeff Gerstmann being fired from Gamespot for not respecting payola. Nintendo literally doing what Hepler suggested and allowing parts of games to be skipped Grand Theft Auto 4's Review Buying Bethesda's Metacritic bonus scandal Day-0 patches and DLC content locked on discs Game developers blatantly lying about games Peter Molyneux' entire career (may be related to the last one) Doritos and Dew having an inordinate amount of influence in the gaming world (sponsors in general, but these are the two largest) Any of these would have been a more logical, well-reasoned and justified starting point than "Woman has sex"
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Jun 29, 2015 12:39
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Cardboard Box A posted:The Zoe Post still exists. That quote is from it. Where in the Zoe Post does Eron write about "how her slutyness was ruining games journalism." The five guys being games journalists is not the same as Eron making a statement about industry corruption. I asked a really simple question and none of you can answer it. So what I want to know is, are you all ignorant, or malicious?
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Jun 29, 2015 12:42
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