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Who What Now posted:The black murderer has a much better chance of having reformed in the last ten years. I assume you're not the single person in the history of the world who has faith in the US prison system.
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Jun 29, 2015 14:31
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unlimited shrimp posted:Isn't saying "the concern with 'ethics in gaming journalism' is valid but talking about it under the GG brand invalidates the argument' just tone policing? If only we have identified ourselves as Gamer+ or #GamergatePlus we could have avoided the brand of misogyny. greatn posted:Because it is true, and because a new movement could avoid being labeled misogynists by not being misogynist and actively keeping those people out of it. You would have to actually have leaders and an organizational structure however. Except it did largely condemn them, repeatedly and constantly. Considering it's a leadershipless organization (which is pretty stupid) that's the best they could do and actually should count for something.
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Jun 29, 2015 14:32
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Shadoer posted:I've said it before, but it's generally because making a new label or hashtag wouldn't do much good. There's no way to ban the rear end in a top hat harassers from a hashtag and the only thing to do is condemn them. Also there's no reason to believe it would gain any good will as other attempts to change the hashtag have resulted in people pointing to it as a "gamergate plot"
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Jun 29, 2015 14:33
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Shadoer posted:If only we have identified ourselves as Gamer+ or #GamergatePlus we could have avoided the brand of misogyny.
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Jun 29, 2015 14:34
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Cingulate posted:I'm trying to avoid a "muslims must apologize for terrorism!" trap here, but basically, I don't see you gaining anything from the label anymore. To anybody but insiders, gamergate seems to be about hating women. There is no positive utility in the label anymore. But there is plenty of use the misogynists are getting out of it. GG has the same perception problem as the tea party: everyone knows how they talk, and their interests, so trying to start a new group at this point is useless. "only a GGer speaks in gaming journalism absolutes."
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Jun 29, 2015 14:35
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unlimited shrimp posted:Isn't saying "the concern with 'ethics in gaming journalism' is valid but talking about it under the GG brand invalidates the argument' just tone policing? No. Telling a person they have no right to be angry at a person (or institution) who has done them legitimate harm is "tone policing" When a person is angry, but decides to take that anger out on someone who isn't the person (or institution) who harmed them there is no "tone" to be policed: it's flat out wrong. There's no legitimate harm.
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Jun 29, 2015 14:39
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The trouble with leaderless groups is that the only qualifier for entry is saying "I support #X" and suddenly you're as much an authority as anyone else. The people who actually care about gaming journalism could create a new group tomorrow and it would be co-opted by misogynist assholes with hashtags, whose acerbic bullshit would come to define the movement by default regardless of how valid the claims of the originators.
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Jun 29, 2015 14:40
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They could, as said before, start a consumer advocacy group. As such they would get a certain amount of legal protections against their "brand" being misrepresented. This would have the net benefit of: 1) Actually being about consumer rights 2) Having legal status 3) Being able to use that legal status to delegitimize attempts to co-opt their brand to attack women
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Jun 29, 2015 14:44
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Zeitgueist posted:Couple of pages ago, but no, as you know I was heavily involved in those threads and it's pretty much always been about people who are vocal about things that piss white male dudes off and the refrain has always been "buuuuuuuuuut we meant the otherkins". It's always been bullshit. I hope you did not think I was implying that you were one of the "insane posters" that I was referencing! But the feminism thread during that era of D&D got bad enough that it got moved to E/N and fizzled out several years later after the admins changed their moderation stance for that thread (and for SA as a whole) and began rooting out full-on crazies like Sl*shie. These people used to be who I thought of when I saw the term SJW. Not anymore since, as I said in the post you quoted, the term is completely useless now except as a group signifier. That is what I meant by mentioning that and I hope this has cleared it up!
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Jun 29, 2015 14:48
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Ddraig posted:No. If the only difference between a valid and invalid argument is the hashtag used, then that's tone policing.
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Jun 29, 2015 14:49
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This thread is retarded. You guys do know we are talking about a bunch of dudes on the internet, right? A vague group of people with vague goals, no real membership to speak of, no real leaders even if they say otherwise. I mean, if gamergate is inherently evil and is about harassment and anyone associated with them should be shunned, so should be feminists. Heck, they already are in some extent.
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Jun 29, 2015 14:50
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Ddraig posted:They could, as said before, start a consumer advocacy group. As such they would get a certain amount of legal protections against their "brand" being misrepresented. gee i wonder why nobody from gg has done that yet
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Jun 29, 2015 14:50
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The real problem with games journalism is the readers. Well researched features that require months of research and time get a couple hundred thousand hits at the most. Meanwhile, you could write how many clickbait articles in that time and rake in how many millions of eyeballs? People do not go out of their way to read quality content so why bother. Might as well poo poo out 3,000 words a day about the flavor of the month instead.
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Jun 29, 2015 14:50
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Cingulate posted:How so? If you're asking me to provide actual graphs and poo poo to prove empirically that more black murderers reform than internet misogynists then you're going to be very sorely disappointed, I'm afraid. Shadoer posted:Except it did largely condemn them, repeatedly and constantly. Considering it's a leadershipless organization (which is pretty stupid) that's the best they could do and actually should count for something. Some mealy-mouthed and half-hearted condemnations don't count for anything, no, and nor should they. A little bit more than a barely token effort needs to be put forward to put a stop to such things, and GamerGate hasn't done that and doesn't want to do that because they don't want to lose the majority of their base. Although I'm not sure why because there isn't really any concrete goals to direct that base towards in the first place.
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Jun 29, 2015 14:51
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Let us English posted:The real problem with games journalism is the readers. Well researched features that require months of research and time get a couple hundred thousand hits at the most. Meanwhile, you could write how many clickbait articles in that time and rake in how many millions of eyeballs? People do not go out of their way to read quality content so why bother. Might as well poo poo out 3,000 words a day about the flavor of the month instead. As an inveterate shitposter I can confirm this to be true.
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Jun 29, 2015 14:51
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The comments on that article were particularly informative. They confirm my two main points: 1. GGers are more concerned with self-esteem than actual policies. Several commenters outright say they want to stop the "constant derision" levelled at gamers. 2. The policies boil down to whinging about those people. There's rumbling about "corruption" (those people are corrupt). Of course they're right about liberalism being corrupt, but they simply want another flavour of liberalism. Shadoer has stated this several times ("we only disagree with their tactics"). Totalizator stated in one awful post that he followed GG just see "Tumblr burn". Similar sentiments can be found in the comments: fall in line, or you will burn (paraphrased, but "burn" is there). GGers don't organise because they don't want to. That would ruin the fun. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Jun 29, 2015 |
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Jun 29, 2015 14:53
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Cardboard Box A posted:This a good and well-stated point. Thank you. Thanks! Yeah, it is important in the reaction to her. And the 'our heritage' concept is one of the reasons why GG is focused on the indies rather than AAA. They feel that there are people suddenly coming into their hobby after all these years of being mocked and made fun of and dictating to them what they should like now that it is suddenly cool and socially acceptable (well, not totally. But more than it has been). What they don't realize is that gaming has exploded and makes more money than Hollywood, even with blockbusters like the Avengers. It is no longer niche, even if some games are. And you notice these niche games are not the typical focus of people. Like in CK2 or EU4, one game where you can preform human sacrifice and kidnap women to be your concubine and the other where you are committing genocide against natives and converting them to your culture by force. Nobody goes after them because the audience is still rather small and if you protested them, barely anyone would know what you were talking about.
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Jun 29, 2015 14:54
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Who What Now posted:Some mealy-mouthed and half-hearted condemnations don't count for anything, no, and nor should they. A little bit more than a barely token effort needs to be put forward to put a stop to such things, and GamerGate hasn't done that and doesn't want to do that because they don't want to lose the majority of their base. Although I'm not sure why because there isn't really any concrete goals to direct that base towards in the first place. You've pretty neatly described both sides' methodology. Their goals are basically "destroy the other at whatever cost."
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Jun 29, 2015 14:55
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Well said...
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Jun 29, 2015 14:56
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Cingulate posted:I'm trying to avoid a "muslims must apologize for terrorism!" trap here, but basically, I don't see you gaining anything from the label anymore. To anybody but insiders, gamergate seems to be about hating women. There is no positive utility in the label anymore. But there is plenty of use the misogynists are getting out of it. Realistically, because at the moment it is achieving strategic goals. A bunch of the game review sites that were effectively corrupt have lost their audience and their advertising revenue and are facing some difficult financial realities. Because of the knee jerk reaction against censorship, it's now impossible for a campaign to prevent a game from launching on major sites like steam simply for political reasons, and creating alternative media. Also any useful organization like a consumer advocacy group will probably rise up from the organization. Cingulate posted:Why not try something like an alliance with the likes of Sarkeesian? She hates dumb advertising and bad games, you hate dumb advertising and bad games, you'd get feminist cred, she'd get gamer cred, the only losers would be gamergate. Well in her case it would be more a problem with her partner McIntosh than anything else. However yes, ultimately working with other people on the other side can have benefits and there are a bunch of things for which people have common cause if they admit it or not. It's something possible in the future.
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Jun 29, 2015 14:57
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I have not read this thread and I don't read about videogames very much, can somebody please explain to me what's wrong with gaming journalism so I can be better informed? Thank you.
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Jun 29, 2015 14:57
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:GGers don't organise because they don't want to. That would ruin the fun. Or, I don't know, it's kinda loving impossible.
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Jun 29, 2015 14:58
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corn in the bible posted:I have not read this thread and I don't read about videogames very much, can somebody please explain to me what's wrong with gaming journalism so I can be better informed? Thank you. 
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Jun 29, 2015 14:59
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So websites can't have games advertise on them, and they can't have non-game sponsors. This seems like a lucrative business, I'm gettin' back in the game.
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Jun 29, 2015 15:00
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Shadoer posted:Realistically, because at the moment it is achieving strategic goals. A bunch of the game review sites that were effectively corrupt have lost their audience and their advertising revenue and are facing some difficult financial realities. Because of the knee jerk reaction against censorship, it's now impossible for a campaign to prevent a game from launching on major sites like steam simply for political reasons, and creating alternative media. Also any useful organization like a consumer advocacy group will probably rise up from the organization. Wow, this is about as dumb as lauding "the thriving YouTube community" (which is also "effectively" corrupt). These measures do nothing to fight against the corruption, they simply cover it up. e: corn in the bible posted:I have not read this thread and I don't read about videogames very much, can somebody please explain to me what's wrong with gaming journalism so I can be better informed? Thank you. Gaming journalism is almost ocmpletely advertainment, or adveritising expressed as entertainment. This is stuff like major gaming sites and YouTube LPs. Gamers revolted that those people were corrupting journalism, and measures were enacted to conceal that gaming journalism is advertainment. Some gamers now think of themselves as a social movement for changing the face of advertainment. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Jun 29, 2015 |
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Jun 29, 2015 15:00
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There is no "both sides." There is a pack of misogynistic cultist freaks, and there are the normal people rejecting them.Cingulate posted:How so? Why do you keep saying "how so" like you're broken? He just told you. GG is grosser and puts a permanent stench of patheticness on you. Black men who go to prison generally don't deserve to (yeah I know you are a "race realist," so there's no point in trying to convince you of that). Participating in GG, on the other hand, is the very definition of deserving things, including isolation and joblessness.
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Jun 29, 2015 15:00
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SedanChair posted:There is no "both sides." There is a pack of misogynistic cultist freaks, and there are the normal people rejecting them. Normal people have no idea what any of this is, and probably think tweeting is a thing only birds do.
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Jun 29, 2015 15:01
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SedanChair posted:There is no "both sides." There is a pack of misogynistic cultist freaks, and there are the normal people rejecting them. Did you just called Gamergate normal?
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Jun 29, 2015 15:02
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Wow, this is about as dumb as lauding "the thriving YouTube community" (which is also "effectively" corrupt). These measures do nothing to fight against the corruption, they simply cover it up. You know, you never did explain how you'd get rid of corruption beyond that it somehow involved eliminating the capitalist system and magically people wouldn't become corrupt anymore. SedanChair posted:Participating in GG, on the other hand, is the very definition of deserving things, including isolation and joblessness. Because they have opinions different than yours?
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Jun 29, 2015 15:03
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Phobophilia posted:Jesus loving christ, I had no idea Eron, or at least someone positioning themselves as Eron at the head of the burgeoning movement, was social engineering their way into Comfort Inn, Choice Hotels International, Inc. Yeah, he's basically an obsessed weirdo at point. Like the "sure I have a new girlfriend, but I've spent months working on my magnum opus ZOE POST 2 and I didnt go far enough and if I go to jail for violating the restraining order against me it will be automatically published!!!" kind of weirdo. http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/article/2015/04/28/gamergate/
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Jun 29, 2015 15:07
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This photoshop of a guy I've never seen before has definitely explained things, thank you.
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Jun 29, 2015 15:09
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Is it just me or are there some serious MRA undertones to GG? I even see some PUA negging going on, and throw some GOP bullshit in there too. Also they have stinky fedoras.
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Jun 29, 2015 15:11
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Bholder posted:Or, I don't know, it's kinda loving impossible. Sad Puppies managed to do that - it is a small circle of writers set on achieving the clear goal. They are responsible for their own actions and can only answer for their own political views. They can also separate themselves from the Vox Day crew (Rabid Puppies) and from the random crowd of their gamergate brethen. Sure, they willingly associate themselves with scum, but at least they can leave the room with their hands clean when some nutso starts threatening people in their name or when a socially-stunted idiot carrying their brand tries to interrupt a speaker on a nerd convention.
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Jun 29, 2015 15:11
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Slanderer posted:Yeah, he's basically an obsessed weirdo at point. Like the "sure I have a new girlfriend, but I've spent months working on my magnum opus ZOE POST 2 and I didnt go far enough and if I go to jail for violating the restraining order against me it will be automatically published!!!" kind of weirdo. He also didn't shut the gently caress up about things before talking to a lawyer so he got a gag order.
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Jun 29, 2015 15:12
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fatherboxx posted:Sad Puppies managed to do that - it is a small circle of writers set on achieving the clear goal. They are responsible for their own actions and can only answer for their own political views. They can also separate themselves from the Vox Day crew (Rabid Puppies) and from the random crowd of their gamergate brethen. Hope you see the important distinction here.
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Jun 29, 2015 15:13
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Shadoer posted:You know, you never did explain how you'd get rid of corruption By ending the video game industry. Your mistake lies in assuming that the industry or the advertainment surrounding it can be "redeemed," that we might have 'capitalism with a human face'. But there is no removing corruption from the industry, because the industry is the corruption. The gaming media is a marketing tool. YouTube LPers are simply the cutting edge of advertainment. GGers don't want to get rid of the corruption, they simply want to make it palatable. They have no problem with gaming media being an extension of the industry's marketing corps, because they want it to be that. GG (and AGG) are about getting the market's favour. GGers themselves say that they're a consumer revolt. They want to be told that games are good, and that they're not misogynists or racists or whatever. They simply want to not be bothered when they consume products, like a liberal who drinks Fair Trade coffee. e: Like your "thriving YouTube community". It's a microcosm of capitallism. "We consume products together! We're happy!" BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 15:16 on Jun 29, 2015 |
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Jun 29, 2015 15:13
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:Normal people have no idea what any of this is, and probably think tweeting is a thing only birds do. It's true that I feel myself getting less normal every time I read a post like this: Cardboard Box A posted:Like a lot of things we discuss, not all of the reactions by every single person, no.
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Jun 29, 2015 15:14
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My nephew really likes minecraft.
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Jun 29, 2015 15:15
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SedanChair posted:It's true that I feel myself getting less normal every time I read a post like this: CBA can have that effect on you.
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Jun 29, 2015 15:15
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Shadoer posted:Because they have opinions different than yours? Yes, absolutely. More specifically because they have opinions about women being inferior sluts that need to get back to the kitchen.
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Jun 29, 2015 15:17
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