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e: whoops
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Jun 29, 2015 17:37
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INH5 posted:So just to be clear here, if instead of making a "Beat Up Anita Sarkeesian" game, they had made a "Beat Up Jonathon McIntosh" game, would everyone here would be fine with that? I think either would be pretty silly and childish, but that describes the reasons why they're engaging with them at all.
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Jun 29, 2015 17:39
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KaptainKrunk posted:- Lack of systematic research What citations are missing? What research is left undone? What is an appropriate level of research for a project like that? Aren't there citations at the end of every video?
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Jun 29, 2015 17:40
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INH5 posted:So just to be clear here, if instead of making a "Beat Up Anita Sarkeesian" game, they had made a "Beat Up Jonathon McIntosh" game, would everyone here would be fine with that? No, but the meaning would be different. And they didn't make it, did they?
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Jun 29, 2015 17:40
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Calde posted:Just apologize with a clear understanding of what (hypothetical) you did wrong, like a normal human being should. For an example that it works just look at Jim Sterling recovering from being a sexist rear end in a top hat. Very interesting, thanks.
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Jun 29, 2015 17:40
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Jack Gladney posted:What citations are missing? What research is left undone? What is an appropriate level of research for a project like that? Aren't there citations at the end of every video? Literally about ethics in games journalism.
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Jun 29, 2015 17:42
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Adventure Pigeon posted:Yeah, actually interacting with gay people was what changed my beliefs. Throughout middle and high school I was raised in a heavily Catholic environment where the authorities made it clear being gay wasn't normal, even if they didn't flat out call it disgusting and evil. The other students were the ones that made it clear it was disgusting and evil. Later on in college and afterwards I met lots of people who turned out to be gay, and I realized that they were perfectly fine, it was my beliefs that were wrong, and I became a better person for it. It depends what you mean by 'shamed and isolated'. There's a difference between someone just coming from the position of ignorance that you were, and people who are happily, virulently homophobic. The former can be dealt with very easily, by educating them, the latter are going to make gay-bashing socially acceptable if you don't confront them. To relate it to the misogyny, people who believe sexual dimorphism means women are better or worse suited for some jobs are ignorant and can easily be dealt with in a mild way by showing them how dumb those beliefs really are, but if someone is talking about how women are cunts who only get anywhere by loving men, then shaming and isolating that person is good not necessarily for them, but for the group because if you let them spout that poo poo without confronting them then you normalize that belief. To put it another way, the amount of shaming is going to be directly proportional to the shittiness of your views. Whether this is the best way to convert an absolute misogynist I have no idea, but I'm much more interested in getting the ordinary person who just has the normal misogyny of our culture to get past it.
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Jun 29, 2015 17:42
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I wouldn't. Fantasizing about violence against people is bad.
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Jun 29, 2015 17:43
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Nevvy Z posted:Literally about ethics in games journalism. It's about implied norms in citizen scholarship.
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Jun 29, 2015 17:43
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INH5 posted:So just to be clear here, if instead of making a "Beat Up Anita Sarkeesian" game, they had made a "Beat Up Jonathon McIntosh" game, would everyone here would be fine with that? No. I'm not OK with a "Beat up Anyone" game at all.
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Jun 29, 2015 17:45
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Sinnlos posted:No. I'm not OK with a "Beat up Anyone" game at all. And speaking of games that aren't games, those are totally barely games by any stretch of the term.
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Jun 29, 2015 17:46
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Why the gently caress do you all care about this, at all
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Jun 29, 2015 17:50
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Obdicut posted:It depends what you mean by 'shamed and isolated'. There's a difference between someone just coming from the position of ignorance that you were, and people who are happily, virulently homophobic. The former can be dealt with very easily, by educating them, the latter are going to make gay-bashing socially acceptable if you don't confront them. To relate it to the misogyny, people who believe sexual dimorphism means women are better or worse suited for some jobs are ignorant and can easily be dealt with in a mild way by showing them how dumb those beliefs really are, but if someone is talking about how women are cunts who only get anywhere by loving men, then shaming and isolating that person is good not necessarily for them, but for the group because if you let them spout that poo poo without confronting them then you normalize that belief. I'm not sure shaming is ever the best approach if you want to convert someone. I'm reminded of Daryl Davis and the Klu Klux Klan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Davis As a black man, he engaged with and ultimately convinced multiple members of the Klu Klux Klan to abandon racism, including multiple high ranking members, because he patiently engaged with them and ultimately convinced them that their beliefs were wrong without attacking their persons. The problem with this approach is it takes a lot of time, as well as amazing amounts of patience and self-control. He first took the time to understand their beliefs before very deliberately taking them apart, and I can't imagine this was a pleasant experience for him. Still, this does seem to support the perspective that even the most vile, lovely views ultimately come from a place of ignorance rather than malignancy, at least in most cases. Shaming is, I suppose, effective in getting someone to shut up, which can ultimately make them less likely to propagate their terrible ideas, but this is only effective as long as the moral high ground is maintained. The child grooming cases in Britain showed what happens when a conservative backlash finds solid moral ground with moderates.
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Jun 29, 2015 17:50
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wouldn't shaming them just make them more rabid and hatful?
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Jun 29, 2015 17:52
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Radbot posted:Why the gently caress do you all care about this, at all I'm only paying attention for the horrible people on both sides. I think it's the same reason that people watch those Real Housewives shows.
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Jun 29, 2015 17:54
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SedanChair posted:No, but the meaning would be different. And they didn't make it, did they? Are we talking about meaning from you, SedanChair's, perspective, the authors, or some other 3rd party? Can someone both hate Anita's views to the point of lampooning her in a violent video game while still not hating the fact that she's a woman? Could she be in any game where violence can be inflicted on her without it being misogyny? Radbot posted:Why the gently caress do you all care about this, at all My mother watched Days of Our Lives. I feel about the same way for twitter war.
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Jun 29, 2015 17:57
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BndQrmT_ytg
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Jun 29, 2015 17:57
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I don't like shaming societies in particular. Korea, Japan both are shame based and parts of their societies seem quite stunted as a result.
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Jun 29, 2015 17:57
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Sinnlos posted:No. I'm not OK with a "Beat up Anyone" game at all. Streets of rage owned, bro, you missed out.
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Jun 29, 2015 17:58
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Adventure Pigeon posted:I think either would be pretty silly and childish, but that describes the reasons why they're engaging with them at all. I think either would be silly, childish, and mean-spirited too, but I don't like the double standard apparently being pushed that violence against women is somehow intrinsically worse than violence against men. We're all human beings, right? And if you're going to argue about privilege, then I might point out that everywhere in the world, men are way more likely to be get beat up than women. SedanChair posted:No, but the meaning would be different. And they didn't make it, did they? There have been a few flash games made recently that feature McIntosh, or a thinly veiled parody of him, as an enemy. Also, back in the day people did distribute instructions to create a fighter in Mortal Kombat Armageddon that looks like Jack Thompson, allowing players to inflict all of the gruesome fatalities that Mortal Kombat is known for on a representation of him. Obdicut posted:It depends what you mean by 'shamed and isolated'. There's a difference between someone just coming from the position of ignorance that you were, and people who are happily, virulently homophobic. The former can be dealt with very easily, by educating them, the latter are going to make gay-bashing socially acceptable if you don't confront them. To relate it to the misogyny, people who believe sexual dimorphism means women are better or worse suited for some jobs are ignorant and can easily be dealt with in a mild way by showing them how dumb those beliefs really are, but if someone is talking about how women are cunts who only get anywhere by loving men, then shaming and isolating that person is good not necessarily for them, but for the group because if you let them spout that poo poo without confronting them then you normalize that belief. Funny that shaming seems to happen way more often to people with the "milder" views you talk about merely needing reeducation. See for example Larry Summers, who got pushed into resigning for speculating that there might be some intrinsic differences between men and women in mathematical ability, Matt Taylor, who got driven to tears for wearing a shirt with scantily clad women on it (designed for him by a female friend), or most recently Tim Hunt, who basically lost everything after making a few off-color jokes. Also the Dongle Gate guys who got fired from their jobs after making some crude jokes that even their accuser admits weren't actually sexist at all.
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Jun 29, 2015 17:58
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Who What Now posted:Keep this on the down-low, but there are more kinds of power than just physical Are you saying Sarkeesian has no political power?
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Jun 29, 2015 17:59
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Adventure Pigeon posted:I'm not sure shaming is ever the best approach if you want to convert someone. I'm reminded of Daryl Davis and the Klu Klux Klan. I don't think you understand what I said, then. I said that for the die-hard racist, misogynist, homophobe, shaming is probably not effective in getting them to change their minds. However, what it does is show to other people that that sort of behavior isn't tolerated, and so changes the experience of those milder types to realize that their thinking is off. To put it another way: what are you imagining shaming to be, and what is the alternative? If someone is publically, at your college, calling someone a human being, what do you think the proper response is? You seem to be making 'shaming' into something very large and ominous, but what I'm talking about is reacting to a racist joke by saying "Knock off that dumb racist poo poo" rather than being silent or doing a polite chuckle as is often the response. If someone has private hosed-up views about gay people but doesn't go around saying them, then they're not going to get 'shamed', and they'll be able to have the private conversations that will help them along the road in a non-confrontational way--but even in those conversations, Daryl was using shame. For example "After a time I said, ‘You know, it’s a fact that all white people have within them a gene that makes them serial killers. Name me three black serial killers.’ He could not do it. I said ‘you have the gene. It’s just latent.’ He said, ‘Well that’s stupid.’ I said, ‘It’s just as stupid as what you said to me.’ He was very quiet after that and I know it was sinking in.". He told the guy what he said was stupid, and he used a hyperbolic perspective to do so. No clue what you're talking about with child grooming stuff. INH5 posted:
Is there some president of Harvard who had less mild views who didn't have something like that happen to him? When you say this happens way more often to people with the milder views, how did you go about assessing this to come to the conclusion that it was 'way more often'?
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Jun 29, 2015 18:00
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Making a comparative argument from another perspective is actually a surprisingly effective way of changing peoples minds about a view they currently have which is probably wrong.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:04
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:Are we talking about meaning from you, SedanChair's, perspective, the authors, or some other 3rd party? From the perspective of history and reality itself, where brutality has been specifically used to silence women. quote:Can someone both hate Anita's views to the point of lampooning her in a violent video game while still not hating the fact that she's a woman? Could she be in any game where violence can be inflicted on her without it being misogyny? Not in this world, maybe in pretend hypothetical ones.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:06
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SedanChair posted:Not in this world, maybe in pretend hypothetical ones. Oh. Whoops.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:07
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Zombywuf posted:Are you saying Sarkeesian has no political power? Tell me more about how she rules over a shadow conspiracy controlling our government.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:08
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Dapper_Swindler posted:http://imgur.com/5ECIRwU Who cares? No, really, who the gently caress cares about what Jonathan McIntosh says on twitter? What does he have to do with ethics in gaming journalism?
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Jun 29, 2015 18:08
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Who What Now posted:Tell me more about how she rules over a shadow conspiracy controlling our government. You can find out more about this in my 15 part YouTube series. Please support my Kickstarter and Patreon.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:09
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You must really think that makes a point of some kind.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:09
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SedanChair posted:From the perspective of history and reality itself, where brutality has been specifically used to silence women. What I am getting is disagreeing with a woman is sexist?
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Jun 29, 2015 18:09
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Who What Now posted:Tell me more about how she rules over a shadow conspiracy controlling our government. Yeah she got to sit on stage beside Germaine Greer at a symposium in Sydney, and was hired as a consultant by Dice because she has no power or influence at all. 
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Jun 29, 2015 18:10
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SedanChair posted:You must really think that makes a point of some kind. Someone using your likeness in a game the way that was done should be something to be happy for (and I'm pretty sure she gave it her blessing, too), but apparently since she can get shot at with arrows its misogynistic. Sorry devs.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:11
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Ape Fist posted:Yeah she got to sit on stage beside Germaine Greer at a symposium in Sydney, and was hired as a consultant by Dice because she has no power or influence at all. If Dice were after someone with real heft why didn't they just hire Germaine Greer? I'm sure Anita could have hooked them up, they're best buds after all.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:12
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Ape Fist posted:Yeah she got to sit on stage beside Germaine Greer at a symposium in Sydney, and was hired as a consultant by Dice because she has no power or influence at all. Wait she was right next to Germaine Greer? Jesus, she has the power to destroy nations
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Jun 29, 2015 18:12
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SedanChair posted:From the perspective of history and reality itself, where brutality has been specifically used to silence women. I'm pretty sure that brutality has been used to silence men at least as often. For example.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:12
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The Droid posted:That certainly is a major component of it to most of the people involved in this, but in RPS' case there were a few incidents after GG started two separate writers wrote about the same game that they both contributed to the Patreon for without disclaimer. Most people just got all frothy because "How dare they praise Gone Home!" of course. This has been brought up in previous threads and shouting matches: What differentiates this scenario from ones in other mediums, such as Roger Ebert's support of Werner Herzog? People are going to support work they like. It's partially nepotistic yes, but it's also completely unavoidable in professions where you interact with the producers of the content you critique. This is why Critical Thought is so important; the reader must critically examine the reviewers work to decide if the review is sufficient to have a positive opinion of the work. Split-second decisions based on the reviewers Cred or Relations just aren't worthwhile. This does not apply to situations where a journalist might provide exposure and overshadow other work in exchange for intimate relations with the producer. Luckily there is a grand total of no evidence that this was the situation with Alan Grayson.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:13
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Ddraig posted:If Dice were after someone with real heft why didn't they just hire Germaine Greer? I'm sure Anita could have hooked them up, they're best buds after all. In Anita's defense I'd say she is THE feminist rep when discussing video games. That's basically her entire job. How much does Germaine know about consoles, controllers, UI, etc?
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Jun 29, 2015 18:13
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Ape Fist posted:Yeah she got to sit on stage beside Germaine Greer at a symposium in Sydney, and was hired as a consultant by Dice because she has no power or influence at all. Yes, this is unironically true. An academic symposium and consulting with a game developer are not examples of political or legislative power. See, you're getting it!
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Jun 29, 2015 18:13
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:Someone using your likeness in a game the way that was done should be something to be happy for (and I'm pretty sure she gave it her blessing, too), but apparently since she can get shot at with arrows its misogynistic. Sorry devs. That example isn't for the likes of you to use.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:13
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Ddraig posted:If Dice were after someone with real heft why didn't they just hire Germaine Greer? I'm sure Anita could have hooked them up, they're best buds after all. I dunno, they should have, Germaine Greer owns bones. Slanderer posted:Wait she was right next to Germaine Greer? Jesus, she has the power to destroy nations Lets keep doing this thing where we go to goony extremes of example so as to negate a point [fart noises]
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Jun 29, 2015 18:13
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