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INH5 posted:I think either would be silly, childish, and mean-spirited too, but I don't like the double standard apparently being pushed that violence against women is somehow intrinsically worse than violence against men. We're all human beings, right? And if you're going to argue about privilege, then I might point out that everywhere in the world, men are way more likely to be get beat up than women. I agree with this, and I think that there is a double standard being pushed. It also makes me uncomfortable that dialogue about this double standard is so difficult. quote:I don't think you understand what I said, then. I said that for the die-hard racist, misogynist, homophobe, shaming is probably not effective in getting them to change their minds. However, what it does is show to other people that that sort of behavior isn't tolerated, and so changes the experience of those milder types to realize that their thinking is off. I think we largely agree, it's just a matter of what we mean by shaming. I was thinking of shaming in its more extreme form, where it goes from being just a "knock it off", which I would agree in most cases is a perfectly fine response, to all out verbal assault or public attack for a stupid comment. When someone is ostracized from a group, they seek others, and the internet makes it easier than ever before. I sometimes think that when I entered college, in the early 2000s, was the perfect time to have my views corrected. If it had been later on, how would I have been treated and how would I have reacted? Regarding the child grooming scandal, in Britain it was discovered several groups of Asian men, mostly of Pakistani origin, had been grooming white children for sex in multiple regions of the country. The police and social services had felt that they weren't able to investigate because they were afraid it said investigation would be viewed as racist. My understanding was that when the whole scandal finally exploded, the liberals took a hit from the moderates, and one partial result of that was the latest election (though the Scottish issue was probably a larger reason. I'm not British and don't understand it all fully). Here's an interesting video from the man who was behind a lot of the legislation on what he's learned over the last few years. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb2iFikOwYU
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Jun 29, 2015 18:14
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SedanChair posted:That example isn't for the likes of you to use. Haha, OK!
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Jun 29, 2015 18:14
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Ape Fist posted:Keep doing this thing where we go to goony extremes of example so as to negate a point [fart noises] My god you're right, just think of how many video games she has probably banned already. She must be stopped.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:15
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:In Anita's defense I'd say she is THE feminist rep when discussing video games. That's basically her entire job. How much does Germaine know about consoles, controllers, UI, etc? According to most of Anita's critics they have about the same level of knowledge. Don't you see the terrible colour balance in her videos? What does she know about consoles, controllers, UI, etc?
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Jun 29, 2015 18:16
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I think this was posted earlier in the thread. Its pretty good and I was actually really surprised how frank he made it all out to be. He also did a good job of neither condemning nor condoning anyone or anything in the video. He just said very plain things about very plain realities that exist, at least in the UK. e. I especially liked his 'White people are statistically violent and drunk as gently caress all the loving time.' part.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:17
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SedanChair posted:That example isn't for the likes of you to use. "The likes of you" What? You said something wasn't possible, and when presented with what someone thinks is an example of it happening, you say its not allowed?
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Jun 29, 2015 18:18
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Holy gently caress, the rabbit hole goes deeper than we thought. Here's noted video game critic Charlie Brooker on the same stage as Germaine Greer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vduGDhgX_KI Could he be the one pulling all the strings?
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Jun 29, 2015 18:21
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Ddraig posted:According to most of Anita's critics they have about the same level of knowledge. Don't you see the terrible colour balance in her videos? What does she know about consoles, controllers, UI, etc? My critique of her videos had nothing to do with her video game prowess tyvm 
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Jun 29, 2015 18:22
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Ddraig posted:According to most of Anita's critics they have about the same level of knowledge. Don't you see the terrible colour balance in her videos? What does she know about consoles, controllers, UI, etc? The only one with terrible color balance is John. Dude really needs to get a tan.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:23
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The Droid posted:"The likes of you" What? You said something wasn't possible, and when presented with what someone thinks is an example of it happening, you say its not allowed? It's so obviously insincere. We're talking about games that exist solely as violence porn, and holding in his little shriveled heart this example, InsanityIsCrazy attempts to lead me down the garden path towards condemning some game where Sarkeesian can be a main character, fully empowered, dishing out injury and taking it the same as anybody else. Oh loving clearly that's what I was talking about. That's what I mean by "the likes of" him.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:24
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Ape Fist posted:I think this was posted earlier in the thread. Its pretty good and I was actually really surprised how frank he made it all out to be. He also did a good job of neither condemning nor condoning anyone or anything in the video. He just said very plain things about very plain realities that exist, at least in the UK. It's a good example of why dialogue needs to happen and how it should be done. It makes me sad that many of the people who should be learning from his example are instead calling him a traitor.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:24
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Ddraig posted:Holy gently caress, the rabbit hole goes deeper than we thought. Here's noted video game critic Charlie Brooker on the same stage as Germaine Greer Germaine Greer is behind the vagina illuminati! alert the gamergaters!
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Jun 29, 2015 18:24
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The Droid posted:"The likes of you" What? You said something wasn't possible, and when presented with what someone thinks is an example of it happening, you say its not allowed? Please stop harassing him.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:24
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Adventure Pigeon posted:
Well, what were you doing? Were you going around saying that gay people were evil or what? In general, you're not going to get 'shamed' or ostracized unless you're doing something really beyond the pale. If you just are being mildly sexist, racist, whatever, you'll get people saying "Don't be stupid" or "What you did is just as dumb as saying white people have a gene that makes them serial killers". I have lived in the Bay Area and Cambridge and other ultra-liberal enclaves and never in my life seen anyone suffer an all out verbal assault or public attack for a stupid comment. i have seen that go down on twitter, like the dumb Joss Whedon thing, but, lovely as that may be, it isn't like an actual social sphere. quote:Regarding the child grooming scandal, in Britain it was discovered several groups of Asian men, mostly of Pakistani origin, had been grooming white children for sex in multiple regions of the country. The police and social services had felt that they weren't able to investigate because they were afraid it said investigation would be viewed as racist. My understanding was that when the whole scandal finally exploded, the liberals took a hit from the moderates, and one partial result of that was the latest election (though the Scottish issue was probably a larger reason. I'm not British and don't understand it all fully). Well, that sounds dumb, but the British police have a pretty generally bad record with investigating child sex scandal stuff so I'm not sure what connection it has here, or what this has to with us talking about confronting people who are racist. quote:Here's an interesting video from the man who was behind a lot of the legislation on what he's learned over the last few years. I don't understand why we're talking about this legislation. You and I were talking about social responses to stuff like misogyny and bigotry. We seem to have strayed very far afield from that.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:25
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SedanChair posted:That example isn't for the likes of you to use. You're the worst.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:25
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SedanChair posted:It's so obviously insincere. We're talking about games that exist solely as violence porn, and holding in his little shriveled heart this example, InsanityIsCrazy attempts to lead me down the garden path towards condemning some game where Sarkeesian can be a main character, fully empowered, dishing out injury and taking it the same as anybody else. Oh loving clearly that's what I was talking about. That's what I mean by "the likes of" him. I said any game with violence. I was not being insincere. You're funny. How about this: What if Anita was a playable character in Smash Bros. Good? InsanityIsCrazy fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Jun 29, 2015 |
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Jun 29, 2015 18:25
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Barack Obama picks up the receiver of a very secure, and very secret, direct phone line. He listens apprehensively as it rings until he hears the distinct 'click' of someone picking up on the other end, though no voice greets him. "Gay marriage has been passed," he says, trying to keep the quaver of fear from his voice, "does this please you, my mistress?" Once again the president waits for an answer with a worried feeling in his gut, this time in silence until a voice replied, "It does." With another 'click' the line went dead and the president sighed with relief. He would be spared for another day. Deep within her fortified volcano bunker where she controlled all of the world's leaders Anita poured glasses of scotch and handed them to her partners McIntosh and Greer. They all laughed cruelly together as they reveled in their unbridled political power. No one could stop them. No one.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:25
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:I said any game with violence. I was not being insincere. You're funny. Yeah you sure got me. Let me amend my previous answer then. Any game where a woman is the passive recipient of violence can never be appropriate.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:28
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SedanChair posted:Yeah you sure got me. Let me amend my previous answer then. Any game where a woman is the passive recipient of violence can never be appropriate. OK, I agree. Good talk 
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Jun 29, 2015 18:29
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Obdicut posted:I have lived in the Bay Area and Cambridge and other ultra-liberal enclaves and never in my life seen anyone suffer an all out verbal assault or public attack for a stupid comment. i have seen that go down on twitter, like the dumb Joss Whedon thing, but, lovely as that may be, it isn't like an actual social sphere. There have been multiple instances of people getting fired over remarks they made on Twitter, so I don't think you can just say that the internet doesn't count. In fact, I find that when people talk about public shaming nowadays, most of the time they are specifically talking about public shaming on social media. SedanChair posted:Yeah you sure got me. Let me amend my previous answer then. Any game where a woman is the passive recipient of violence can never be appropriate. If she's a playable character, then you can easily make her into a passive recipient of violence by walking into the line of sight of enemies and then putting the controller down.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:30
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The best way to convince someone I'm right on a topic is to just shout at them incessantly, ignoring and condemning anyone who speaks up in opposition to my stance until they accept that I was right all along. This is how an adult thinks and behaves in the year of our lord 2015.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:31
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:OK, I agree. Good talk Then what was your point earlier?
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Jun 29, 2015 18:31
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Obdicut posted:Well, what were you doing? Were you going around saying that gay people were evil or what? In general, you're not going to get 'shamed' or ostracized unless you're doing something really beyond the pale. If you just are being mildly sexist, racist, whatever, you'll get people saying "Don't be stupid" or "What you did is just as dumb as saying white people have a gene that makes them serial killers". I didn't do anything beyond the pale. Probably made a stupid comment of some sort and got a negative response. At this point I don't remember, which means it wasn't all that significant. Generally, yeah, that stuff only happens on twitter. Back in college I do remember seeing it occasionally (I went to a college that was a little right of Oberlin), but I do agree that it's mostly a social media phenomena. I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make, or not watching the video. The video discusses how a major part of Britain's campaign to encourage multiculturalism was constant social pressure and mild shaming. The method they thought would work to end racism was to simply to make dissenting viewpoints socially (and to a degree legally) unacceptable. Trevor Phillips discusses how that backfired after several scandals, such as the child grooming incident.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:32
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Who What Now posted:Barack Obama picks up the receiver of a very secure, and very secret, direct phone line. He listens apprehensively as it rings until he hears the distinct 'click' of someone picking up on the other end, though no voice greets him. "Gay marriage has been passed," he says, trying to keep the quaver of fear from his voice, "does this please you, my mistress?" Once again the president waits for an answer with a worried feeling in his gut, this time in silence until a voice replied, "It does." With another 'click' the line went dead and the president sighed with relief. He would be spared for another day. You're missing an important fact that every single person knows: Anita isn't real, she's merely a puppet for McIntosh. Where does he fit into this scenario?
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Jun 29, 2015 18:32
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Obdicut posted:I have lived in the Bay Area and Cambridge and other ultra-liberal enclaves and never in my life seen anyone suffer an all out verbal assault or public attack for a stupid comment. i have seen that go down on twitter, like the dumb Joss Whedon thing, but, lovely as that may be, it isn't like an actual social sphere. I have seen it happen in real life both in rural areas and suburban/cities that dwarf the locations you're pulling your experiences from. It's lovely social behavior regardless of what the topic is and any adult who thinks its normal is a stunted individual in terms of understand how discussion works. I hope this helps. Ddraig posted:You're missing an important fact that every single person knows: Anita isn't real, she's merely a puppet for McIntosh. Where does he fit into this scenario? Clearly as the Yeerk* controlling Anita. *You need to have read Animorphs to get this reference. Mekchu fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Jun 29, 2015 |
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Jun 29, 2015 18:33
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^^^^^^ How did you get a copy of my next chapter?! That's just a rough draft and is subject to change! *furiously scribbles out writings* INH5 posted:If she's a playable character, then you can easily make her into a passive recipient of violence by walking into the line of sight of enemies and then putting the controller down. And that would be kinda hosed up and if you do that then you probably get off to women being beaten and abused. And if you loved to see Raiden just constantly beat on and killed over and over while never fighting back I'd think you were hosed up and loved seeing men and/or cyborg ninjas being beaten and abused.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:35
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INH5 posted:There have been multiple instances of people getting fired over remarks they made on Twitter, so I don't think you can just say that the internet doesn't count. In fact, I find that when people talk about public shaming nowadays, most of the time they are specifically talking about public shaming on social media. I'd think the bigger issue here is that companies are more concerned with public image than competency at your job. Unless your job is literally "Try and paint our organization in a good light" then such a thing being a fire-able offence is a much bigger problem with at-will employment and poor labour laws than social media.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:36
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Ddraig posted:You're missing an important fact that every single person knows: Anita isn't real, she's merely a puppet for McIntosh. Where does he fit into this scenario? what if gamergate was started by antia! Cyron fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Jun 29, 2015 |
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Jun 29, 2015 18:36
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Who What Now posted:And that would be kinda hosed up and if you do that then you probably get off to women being beaten and abused. I agree, dudes getting off to that is seriously hosed up.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:37
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I did find one criticism of a particular point Anita makes in one of her videos. She says "Players are meant to derive a perverse pleasure from desecrating the bodies of unsuspecting virtual female characters" and "Ingame consequences for these violations are trivial at best and rarely result in any fail state or game over" using footage from Hitman and perhaps more oddly, Fallout New Vegas. The Hitman games are often quite sexist, and I feel that her earlier point about them often placing 'sexy women' around levels for players to gawk at is largely accurate. On the other hand, her claim that the player is meant attack and desecrate these NPCs is inaccurate. As with most NPCs that are not guards or mission targets, they serve more as obstacles to be avoided or snuck by as the player traverses the level. Killing any non-target/guard NPC reduces your score in Absolution, and can increase the difficulty of following levels in Blood Money. The player is not encouraged to attack these characters, and is penalized for doing so. In fact, the specific segment she draws her footage from fits in better with a different point in her "Women as Background" videos. It is heavily implied that the strippers in this club are murdered/kidnapped into sexual slavery by the club's owner through NPC dialogue, giving the player a moral justification for killing the club's owner. The Fallout New Vegas example is particularly odd however, because she shows the player attacking a pedestrian on the street and receiving a lowered reputation with the neighborhood as a result. The player receives a lowered reputation with the neighborhood as result, which can hamper quests, and at higher levels, turn the place hostile towards the player permanently. In an RPG the player's actions should have "in world" consequences like that rather than a big red text popping up and saying "You did something morally reprehensible! Game over!".
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Jun 29, 2015 18:37
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SedanChair posted:Then what was your point earlier? It's certainly not appropriate, but stupid flash games entire purpose is to be inappropriate. Giving it the time of day is exactly what those kind of developers want. It's like the childish sorts of violence you see in Postal. It's done on purpose to shock you, and probably offend. The other thing is a lot of people in this fight feel that any representation of Anita or other women in violent situations are misogynistic, even if they have agency, which is weird to me.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:38
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Ddraig posted:I'd think the bigger issue here is that companies are more concerned with public image than competency at your job. Unless your job is literally "Try and paint our organization in a good light" then such a thing being a fire-able offence is a much bigger problem with at-will employment and poor labour laws than social media. From people I know in the gaming industry, a lot of people have been told not to say anything on social media for or against gamergate, since both sides have a habit of tying anything said by a developer as an individual to their company. That's a sensible and professional approach, even if it might not be the most ethical.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:39
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The Droid posted:I did find one criticism of a particular point Anita makes in one of her videos. She says "Players are meant to derive a perverse pleasure from desecrating the bodies of unsuspecting virtual female characters" and "Ingame consequences for these violations are trivial at best and rarely result in any fail state or game over" using footage from Hitman and perhaps more oddly, Fallout New Vegas. from what i have gathered from watching her videos, Is she wants harsher consequences in game for when you kill women/random people. like instant gameovers or something like that, because she thinks that point deductions/ rep loss is not a big enough loss and makes woman/people into objects. she also thought that female splicers in bioshock invoked eroticism.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:42
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:It's certainly not appropriate, but stupid flash games entire purpose is to be inappropriate. Giving it the time of day is exactly what those kind of developers want. It's like the childish sorts of violence you see in Postal. It's done on purpose to shock you, and probably offend. The other thing is a lot of people in this fight feel that any representation of Anita or other women in violent situations are misogynistic, even if they have agency, which is weird to me. Yes, this is the standard response of privileged people who do not have to deal with the effects of discrimination and brutality. "Just ignore it." But that has never accomplished anything.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:42
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INH5 posted:There have been multiple instances of people getting fired over remarks they made on Twitter, so I don't think you can just say that the internet doesn't count. In fact, I find that when people talk about public shaming nowadays, most of the time they are specifically talking about public shaming on social media. I didn't say that the internet doesn't count, I said that people blowing up on people on twitter doesn't count. Obviously, being racist or misogynist or whatever on twitter would be a reason to fire someone. You kind of got it backwards there. The average person who is a racist, misogynist, or otherwise is not going to be shamed on social media. You skipped over answering my previous question, so i'd like to remind you of it. You said people more often pay a penalty for the 'milder' versions--were you just saying things awkwardly, and you meant that sometimes people pay a price even for a 'mild' comment but that it's not more common than paying a price for a more extreme comment? That'd kind of make sense, given that the milder comments are a lot more common. In the case of Larry Summers, it's rather obvious that the mildness of the comment wasn't the issue, it was that he said it while president of Harvard. Unfunny Poster posted:I have seen it happen in real life both in rural areas and suburban/cities that dwarf the locations you're pulling your experiences from. You've seen people being verbally assaulted for something something mildly racist or misogynistic? Like what? I have been pretty clearly saying that responding to something that's just the normal kind of ignorance with vituperation would be silly, so I'm not sure why you're telling me that it's lovely social behavior. Adventure Pigeon posted:I didn't do anything beyond the pale. Probably made a stupid comment of some sort and got a negative response. At this point I don't remember, which means it wasn't all that significant. Generally, yeah, that stuff only happens on twitter. Back in college I do remember seeing it occasionally (I went to a college that was a little right of Oberlin), but I do agree that it's mostly a social media phenomena. Right, well, that's what I'm saying. You said something dumb, you got a negative response. That's appropriate. That's 'shaming'. If you were going around being more of an rear end in a top hat, you'd also get shunned--people would avoid you and not invite you to stuff. quote:I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make, or not watching the video. The video discusses how a major part of Britain's campaign to encourage multiculturalism was constant social pressure and mild shaming. The method they thought would work to end racism was to simply to make dissenting viewpoints socially (and to a degree legally) unacceptable. Trevor Phillips discusses how that backfired after several scandals, such as the child grooming incident. I watched it, but he's talking about their campaign to stop people from stereotyping, which failed or was problematic because many stereotypes are 'true'. This doesn't have anything at all to do with what I'm talking about, so I'm still not understanding what relevance it has. I'm not saying that if someone says "Black people are in prison at much higher rates than white people" they should be castigated for saying so, or "Cab drivers tend to be non-white". I want these things talked about. Ddraig posted:I'd think the bigger issue here is that companies are more concerned with public image than competency at your job. Unless your job is literally "Try and paint our organization in a good light" then such a thing being a fire-able offence is a much bigger problem with at-will employment and poor labour laws than social media. It goes beyond that. if you're someone with any decision-making power or managerial role at a company, and you go on twitter talking about how women are naturally not good at math, then you open your company to a lawsuit from any woman you don't promote for a role involving math because you've demonstrated you're prejudiced. Same if you talk about how black people are lazy, or anything else that might mean you privileged one employee over another. There may be some people who are capable of thinking women are naturally worse at math than men but still fairly judging between a male and female employee in areas involving math, but it'd be unusual. Obdicut fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Jun 29, 2015 |
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Jun 29, 2015 18:44
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SedanChair posted:Yes, this is the standard response of privileged people who do not have to deal with the effects of discrimination and brutality. "Just ignore it." But that has never accomplished anything. Ignoring stupid games like Hatred would've certainly been better for everyone instead of pointing it out at every opportunity and saying how horrible it is. This particular industry can make a living on spite.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:45
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:Ignoring stupid games like Hatred would've certainly been better for everyone instead of pointing it out at every opportunity and saying how horrible it is. This particular industry can make a living on spite. hatred was dumb, it was dumb forsites to go all "ban this sick filth" but it was more dumb for gamers to buy it to prove some point. granted if it was ignore then it wouldn't have made money.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:48
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:Ignoring stupid games like Hatred would've certainly been better for everyone instead of pointing it out at every opportunity and saying how horrible it is. This particular industry can make a living on spite. Do you think that is exactly the same issue as depictions of misogynistic violence?
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Jun 29, 2015 18:49
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:Ignoring stupid games like Hatred would've certainly been better for everyone instead of pointing it out at every opportunity and saying how horrible it is. This particular industry can make a living on spite. pretty much. Hatred wouldnt have sold poo poo if game sites had ignored it, but they instead winched about out for weeks, causing people to spite buy or get curious why it was so hated and buy it..(including me)
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Jun 29, 2015 18:50
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Cyron posted:hatred was dumb, it was dumb forsites to go all "ban this sick filth" but it was more dumb for gamers to buy it to prove some point. granted if it was ignore then it wouldn't have made money. Which sites called for it to be banned? I only recall sites saying "This game looks dumb and middle-school edgy"
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Jun 29, 2015 18:50
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