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Oh look, Gamergate is making a documentary about itself.quote:Despite what many people have said about this particular controversy being over, #gamergate has been an ongoing online culture war for 10 months. The media has been overwhelmingly against the people in gamergate. They have even gone as far as equating them with ISIS, and the KKK. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTnXPujRTgA&t=84s
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Jun 29, 2015 18:50
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:Ignoring stupid games like Hatred would've certainly been better for everyone instead of pointing it out at every opportunity and saying how horrible it is. This particular industry runs on spite. f the press/twitter hadn't had a panic attack over "Postal- Black and White" then all we probably would have seen would be some reviews and some youtube videos of its goofy dialogue. Instead it jumps up in the sales charts after people pressure Steam into taking it off of the market (and then it being put back onto the market). The game's trailer did its job perfectly in that it provoked goobers into screaming about it for everyone to hear wherever they could.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:50
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The Droid posted:The Hitman games are often quite sexist, and I feel that her earlier point about them often placing 'sexy women' around levels for players to gawk at is largely accurate. On the other hand, her claim that the player is meant attack and desecrate these NPCs is inaccurate. As with most NPCs that are not guards or mission targets, they serve more as obstacles to be avoided or snuck by as the player traverses the level. Killing any non-target/guard NPC reduces your score in Absolution, and can increase the difficulty of following levels in Blood Money. The player is not encouraged to attack these characters, and is penalized for doing so. In fact, the specific segment she draws her footage from fits in better with a different point in her "Women as Background" videos. It is heavily implied that the strippers in this club are murdered/kidnapped into sexual slavery by the club's owner through NPC dialogue, giving the player a moral justification for killing the club's owner. New Vegas was a weird example, but I don't think the Hitman example is that strange when you've played the game; the part she displays involves you sneaking through an area where the strippers are mostly unprotected, and have multiple lines of dialogue emphasizing them as vapid assholes. It doesn't literally say "MURDER THE SLUTS", but it does provide encouragement. The success of the encouragement is debatable, but it wasn't uncommon for people arguing in favor of the video in previous threads to show multiple youtube vids of personalities getting off (not literally) on killing them and creating a stripper pile. I feel the use of multiple examples is actually a healthy practice when creating a hypothesis, contrary to what a lot of anti-Anita people believe. When you have multiple case examples of your belief in action then it becomes harder to refute, because one faulty example does not immediately torpedo your point. A lot of critiques of her examples rely on one grey example per-statement, instead of tackling the 4-5 that she uses with each point.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:51
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SedanChair posted:Do you think that is exactly the same issue as depictions of misogynistic violence? I think we all agree that a flash game where you just punch someone in a face is not good at all. it both misogynistic and a shity game.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:51
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Dapper_Swindler posted:pretty much. Hatred wouldnt have sold poo poo if game sites had ignored it, but they instead winched about out for weeks, causing people to spite buy or get curious why it was so hated and buy it..(including me) so you bought a bad looking game on purpose just to passive-aggressive spite people you don't agree with, and you're accusing them of being whiners?
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Jun 29, 2015 18:52
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Obdicut posted:You've seen people being verbally assaulted for something something mildly racist or misogynistic? Like what? Please point to where I ever said those comments that got the person harassed were mildly racist/misogynistic. You seemed to have pulled that out of thin air. You were talking about "a stupid comment", which is a generic statement and could mean anything from "this city sucks" to "McDonalds is the best", resulting in someone being verbally harassed. It happens, just because you haven't experienced it doesn't make it untrue. Some people get harassed for the littlest of things by idiots in the world. This isn't a hard concept but you're denying its existence based off of your own privileges in life.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:53
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SedanChair posted:Do you think that is exactly the same issue as depictions of misogynistic violence? Are we comparing the flash game to Hatred? Cuz one is far more open ended and much more detailed. Slanderer posted:Which sites called for it to be banned? I only recall sites saying "This game looks dumb and middle-school edgy" I think the people calling for outright bannings were certain journalists in opinion pieces, not official articles.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:54
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Maxwell Adams posted:Oh look, Gamergate is making a documentary about itself. this will be magical. but I wouldn't call it a documentary, but more like propaganda.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:54
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Maxwell Adams posted:The media has been overwhelmingly against the people in gamergate. They have even gone as far as equating them with ISIS, and the KKK. this is exactly how conspiracy theorists describe themselves. "the MEDIA doesn't want you to know what we have to say, they want to throw us in political prison!" afaik the "media" was actually a couple of people on twitter. gamergaters are so convinced in the righteousness and seriousness of their cause that they equate people tossing lazy insults as a media blackout and political repression
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Jun 29, 2015 18:55
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Neurolimal posted:and have multiple lines of dialogue emphasizing them as vapid assholes. If Absolution weren't the worst game in the franchise I'd reinstall it and check this, but when I played it I could only remember them worrying about how one of their friends was given a "trip to Hawaii" and never seen again, and feared the same fate would befall them. As for the murder pile, people will always do that sort of thing, Robbaz's Hitman videos often ended with him killing everyone in the level and piling them up in one giant heap.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:55
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Unfunny Poster posted:Please point to where I ever said those comments that got the person harassed were mildly racist/misogynistic. You seemed to have pulled that out of thin air. You jumped in on a discussion I was having with someone else, and that's what we were talking about. quote:You were talking about "a stupid comment", which is a generic statement, resulting in someone being verbally harassed. It happens, just because you haven't seen it happen personally doesn't make it untrue. Some people get harassed for the littlest of things by idiots in the world. This isn't a hard concept but you're denying its existence based off of your own privileges in life. Yeah, I was talking about it in the context of racism, misogyny, etc. I'm really unclear on what you're talking about. Do you mean, like, seeing someone melt down on a cashier or something for telling them they didn't have something in stock, and it turns out they did, but in a different size, or what? Because yeah, I have seen that.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:57
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There aren't too many people that I would trust with making a documentary about Gamergate. I wish someone would make a good one that doesn't favor either side too much but I don't think that's going to happen.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:57
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Popular Thug Drink posted:so you bought a bad looking game on purpose just to passive-aggressive spite people you don't agree with, and you're accusing them of being whiners? I think its more like the sort of effect that happens whenever some group/politician tries to ban a videogame because "Its just too darn violent!" and it acts as free publicity. Popular Thug Drink posted:this is exactly how conspiracy theorists describe themselves. "the MEDIA doesn't want you to know what we have to say, they want to throw us in political prison!" Its certainly just people on twitter making the ISIS/KKK comparisons IIRC.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:58
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Obdicut posted:I didn't say that the internet doesn't count, I said that people blowing up on people on twitter doesn't count. Obviously, being racist or misogynist or whatever on twitter would be a reason to fire someone. You kind of got it backwards there. Yes, it does seem to be that milder comments are simply more common. The fact remains that people get shamed for milder things than you think they should be shamed for. And I'm not comfortable with the idea of saying, "this normally wouldn't be okay, but it's alright this time because this guy is rich and powerful." Almost everyone in any first world country is rich and powerful compared to, for example, the average person in India. If you really want examples that are outside the internet, Frederik DeBoer has seen a few: Freddie DeBoer posted:I have seen, with my own two eyes, a 19 year old white woman — smart, well-meaning, passionate — literally run crying from a classroom because she was so ruthlessly brow-beaten for using the word “disabled.” Not repeatedly. Not with malice. Not because of privilege. She used the word once and was excoriated for it. She never came back. I watched that happen. http://fredrikdeboer.com/2015/01/29/i-dont-know-what-to-do-you-guys/ Neurolimal posted:New Vegas was a weird example, but I don't think the Hitman example is that strange when you've played the game; the part she displays involves you sneaking through an area where the strippers are mostly unprotected, and have multiple lines of dialogue emphasizing them as vapid assholes. It doesn't literally say "MURDER THE SLUTS", but it does provide encouragement. The success of the encouragement is debatable, but it wasn't uncommon for people arguing in favor of the video in previous threads to show multiple youtube vids of personalities getting off (not literally) on killing them and creating a stripper pile. Except that, like in every Hitman game, everything about the way the gameplay is structured provides incentives for you to not attack civilians, even without bringing up the fact that it docks you points. The fact that she never brought this up weakens her argument and makes her look ignorant. Yes, you can find youtube videos of people doing the thing. You can find youtube videos of people doing anything you can think of in a game. InsanityIsCrazy posted:I think the people calling for outright bannings were certain journalists in opinion pieces, not official articles. Jonny McIntosh did criticize Valve after they put it back on Steam after taking it off for a day. INH5 fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Jun 29, 2015 |
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Jun 29, 2015 18:58
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Hadaka Apron posted:There aren't too many people that I would trust with making a documentary about Gamergate. I wish someone would make a good one that doesn't favor either side too much but I don't think that's going to happen. what would it even be about? the only substantial topic of discussion in gamergate is that people on the internet really hate other people on the internet. nobody else cares at all about the things gamergate claims as core values The Droid posted:I think its more like the sort of effect that happens whenever some group/politician tries to ban a videogame because "Its just too darn violent!" and it acts as free publicity. yeah but nobody tried to ban it? some people said "this game looks really dumb and horribly violent" and other people said "don't tell me what games to like, feminists" and then they go buy the bad game
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Jun 29, 2015 18:59
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Neurolimal posted:New Vegas was a weird example, but I don't think the Hitman example is that strange when you've played the game; the part she displays involves you sneaking through an area where the strippers are mostly unprotected, and have multiple lines of dialogue emphasizing them as vapid assholes. It doesn't literally say "MURDER THE SLUTS", but it does provide encouragement. The success of the encouragement is debatable, but it wasn't uncommon for people arguing in favor of the video in previous threads to show multiple youtube vids of personalities getting off (not literally) on killing them and creating a stripper pile. having played the part she shows. No they don't. They are talking to the one girl who has to do a show for one of the villains and apparently he has very hosed up and violent appetite and alot of girls go missing after he is done. so they tell her to be very careful and stuff. thats the abosolution scene at least.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:59
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Hadaka Apron posted:There aren't too many people that I would trust with making a documentary about Gamergate. I wish someone would make a good one that doesn't favor either side too much but I don't think that's going to happen. Yeah, it's important to present a balanced perspective. "These people send death threats on the Internet and are sickos. On the other hand…"
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Jun 29, 2015 19:01
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INH5 posted:Except that, like in every Hitman game, everything about the way the gameplay is structured provides incentives for you to not attack civilians, even without bringing up the fact that it docks you points. The fact that she never brought this up weakens her argument and makes her look ignorant. Let's be honest here. Nobody cares about points. Literally the only time I've ever considered points was in a friends leaderboard for Pinball FX 2. Points died when arcades went under, and the grave was pissed on when every other online leaderboard has some hacked account at 999999,999999,999999 0:01 at the top. quote:having played the part she shows. No they don't. They are talking to the one girl who has to do a show for one of the villains and apparently he has very hosed up and violent appetite and alot of girls go missing after he is done. so they tell her to be very careful and stuff. thats the abosolution scene at least. I might either be thinking of a different hitman game, or a completely separate game that was brought up. My mistake.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:01
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Neurolimal posted:Let's be honest here. Nobody cares about points. Achievements are the new points.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:02
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Maxwell Adams posted:Oh look, Gamergate is making a documentary about itself. "A police investigation of themselves has found no wrongdoing on the part of the police, police chief says."
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Jun 29, 2015 19:07
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Obdicut posted:You jumped in on a discussion I was having with someone else, and that's what we were talking about. The person you quoted didn't mention racism so I missed that part. Regardless my comment that people who think verbally harassing others is an appropriate counter to "a stupid comment" is the best way to convince that person what they did is wrong is the sign of socially stunted individuals. Just because you lived in one of the most privileged areas of the United States doesn't mean it doesn't happen elsewhere in the world.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:07
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SedanChair posted:Yeah, it's important to present a balanced perspective. "These people send death threats on the Internet and are sickos. On the other hand…" Anti-GG has plenty of warts, such as Brianna Wu faking harassment, Zoe being unapologetic for her time lurking in Helldump, the role of the Streisand effect in making the whole thing worse, the blockbot where less than 1% of the blocked accounts were involved in harassment, and so on.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:08
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The Droid posted:The Fallout New Vegas example is particularly odd however, because she shows the player attacking a pedestrian on the street and receiving a lowered reputation with the neighborhood as a result. The player receives a lowered reputation with the neighborhood as result, which can hamper quests, and at higher levels, turn the place hostile towards the player permanently. In an RPG the player's actions should have "in world" consequences like that rather than a big red text popping up and saying "You did something morally reprehensible! Game over!". This is exactly as it should be. The decision to (fictionally) support slavery should not be taken from you, but made by you. INH5 posted:Funny that shaming seems to happen way more often to people with the "milder" views you talk about merely needing reeducation. See for example Larry Summers, who got pushed into resigning for speculating that there might be some intrinsic differences between men and women in mathematical ability, Matt Taylor, who got driven to tears for wearing a shirt with scantily clad women on it (designed for him by a female friend), or most recently Tim Hunt, who basically lost everything after making a few off-color jokes. Also the Dongle Gate guys who got fired from their jobs after making some crude jokes that even their accuser admits weren't actually sexist at all. At the Conference on Diversifying the Science & Engineering Workforce, so a bit before the economy crashed because Larry Summers had repelled Glass–Steagall, and a bit after Cornell West left Harvard for Princeton because Larry Summers does not like Rap, Larry Summers argued that women are underrepresented in top science because they're simply not as good at top science as men. He referred to the (largely discredited; Hyde & Mertz, 2009) idea that higher male variance is why women can't do top science. Thankfully, somebody this utterly tone deaf no longer speaks for Harvard, and did not have the chance to repeat the genius act of crashing the economy because Obama disinvited him from the Secretary of Treasure position.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:09
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INH5 posted:Except that, like in every Hitman game, everything about the way the gameplay is structured provides incentives for you to not attack civilians, even without bringing up the fact that it docks you points. The fact that she never brought this up weakens her argument and makes her look ignorant. Killing civilians can make sneaking into, and especially back out of, many areas substantially easier at the expense of the game saying "Killing civilians, eh? No high score for you!" so yes, there are in fact some incentives to doing so.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:10
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INH5 posted:Yes, it does seem to be that milder comments are simply more common. The fact remains that people get shamed for milder things than you think they should be shamed for. I never denied that this happens, though. I said in general, you're going to be more attacked the more lovely the thing you say is. I also said I've never seen it happen, and so to me, the belief that is is common would require proof that goes beyond anecdotes, because I'd expect to see it. i've seen shitloads of racism, sexism, and classism--the closest I've come to seeing what DeBoer's describes is seeing campus Marxists lecturing actual working-class people on issues of poverty--but I haven't ever seen this PC run amuck stuff that's supposed to be super-common. I did actually have a complaint made against me for playing Kinky Friedman's "They Ain't Makin' Jews Like Jesus Anymore" on a college radio station, and the person who complained about it was pretty hostile to me at the meeting we had about it, but that's it. quote:And I'm not comfortable with the idea of saying, "this normally wouldn't be okay, but it's alright this time because this guy is rich and powerful." Almost everyone in any first world country is rich and powerful compared to, for example, the average person in India. I didn't say that, though, so why are you presenting that as a quote? I'm sorry, you've lost me. i said nothing about being rich or powerful at all, so where'd you come up with that? I completely believe that Freddie DeBoer saw those things. What I asked, though, is how you came to a conclusion that people get in trouble more often for mild things than for extreme things. Do you have any source for this belief at all? In my experience, I have seen people suffer more, and more people suffer, for extreme views than mild views, and I have seen people with more mild views treated more mildly. In DeBoer's example, do you think if someone used 'disabled' as a slur that they would have been treated more gently than the person who used it innocently? Unfunny Poster posted:The person you quoted didn't mention racism so I missed that part. Regardless my comment that people who think verbally harassing others is an appropriate counter to "a stupid comment" is the best way to convince that person what they did is wrong is the sign of socially stunted individuals. Just because you lived in one of the most privileged areas of the United States doesn't mean it doesn't happen elsewhere in the world. You don't seem to be actually reading what I'm saying.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:10
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Hadaka Apron posted:Anti-GG has plenty of warts, such as Brianna Wu faking harassment, Zoe being unapologetic for her time lurking in Helldump, the role of the Streisand effect in making the whole thing worse, the blockbot where less than 1% of the blocked accounts were involved in harassment, and so on. A shoddy blockbot is akin to death threats.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:11
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Obdicut posted:I never denied that this happens, though. I said in general, you're going to be more attacked the more lovely the thing you say is. I also said I've never seen it happen, and so to me, the belief that is is common would require proof that goes beyond anecdotes, because I'd expect to see it. i've seen shitloads of racism, sexism, and classism--the closest I've come to seeing what DeBoer's describes is seeing campus Marxists lecturing actual working-class people on issues of poverty--but I haven't ever seen this PC run amuck stuff that's supposed to be super-common. I did actually have a complaint made against me for playing Kinky Friedman's "They Ain't Makin' Jews Like Jesus Anymore" on a college radio station, and the person who complained about it was pretty hostile to me at the meeting we had about it, but that's it. On the other hand, people in the real world are literally burning black churches.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:13
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i'm also not sure how "the role of the Streisand effect" is something that can be described as a negative outcome of opposing gamergate
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Jun 29, 2015 19:14
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Obdicut posted:You don't seem to be actually reading what I'm saying. You've just now realized that's what 99% of this whole thing (GamerGate) is and has always been. Thanks for playing.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:17
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Hadaka Apron posted:Anti-GG has plenty of warts, such as Brianna Wu faking harassment, Zoe being unapologetic for her time lurking in Helldump, the role of the Streisand effect in making the whole thing worse, the blockbot where less than 1% of the blocked accounts were involved in harassment, and so on. Do those "warts" seem in anyway comparable to you?
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Jun 29, 2015 19:18
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i'm also not sure how "the role of the Streisand effect" is something that can be described as a negative outcome of opposing gamergate I'm also not sure what Zoe lurking in Helldump has to do with her ex-boyfriend and people mad she hooked up with one or two journalists does to discredit a-GG.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:19
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Unfunny Poster posted:You've just now realized that's what 99% of this whole thing (GamerGate) is and has always been. I haven't realized anything except that you're making zero sense to me, I'm afraid.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:21
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I liked in Saint Row where Benjamin King treating you like a real rear end in a top hat for running people over after no one else gave a gently caress the entire game. That was a good game.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:21
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Hadaka Apron posted:Anti-GG has plenty of warts, such as Brianna Wu faking harassment, Zoe being unapologetic for her time lurking in Helldump, the role of the Streisand effect in making the whole thing worse, the blockbot where less than 1% of the blocked accounts were involved in harassment, and so on. Really? That, that is, any of this, is somehow worth mentioning?
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Jun 29, 2015 19:21
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:I think the people calling for outright bannings were certain journalists in opinion pieces, not official articles. People are twitter did, certainly, but I don't know of any journalists who called for the game to be banned. Can you cite any examples? I can't actually check right now (All game-related site are blocked on my work network, because apparently video games are indistinguishable from browser games)
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Jun 29, 2015 19:22
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SedanChair posted:Do those "warts" seem in anyway comparable to you? no, not at all, I mean I geuss you can see them as bad on their own, but it's not the same league as what GG have done. this is just normal jerkish things, gamergate is a hate group.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:23
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SedanChair posted:Do those "warts" seem in anyway comparable to you? Well yeah, you've got all that, and then just some minor stuff on the other side like the FBI sweeping 8chan for child porn and 4chan having to run anti-child porn software to keep the pedophiles off their site. What? Is that a big deal?
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Jun 29, 2015 19:23
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Slanderer posted:People are twitter did, certainly, but I don't know of any journalists who called for the game to be banned. Can you cite any examples? I can't actually check right now (All game-related site are blocked on my work network, because apparently video games are indistinguishable from browser games) Having looked back at the ones I remember (specifically some dude saying it'd enable school shooters or something), they were mostly internet personalities and bloggers. I don't think they were journalists for any specific site.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:26
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I know this been talked about before but when did the whole thing went down on 4chan with moot somehow turning into a "SJW sleeper agent"?
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Jun 29, 2015 19:26
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Cyron posted:I know this been talked about before but when did the whole thing went down on 4chan with moot somehow turning into a "SJW sleeper agent"? I'm guessing around the time he decided (or it was decided for him) that the site shouldn't be a haven for people who want to share child porn.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:27
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