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Obdicut posted:I watched it, but he's talking about their campaign to stop people from stereotyping, which failed or was problematic because many stereotypes are 'true'. This doesn't have anything at all to do with what I'm talking about, so I'm still not understanding what relevance it has. I'm not saying that if someone says "Black people are in prison at much higher rates than white people" they should be castigated for saying so, or "Cab drivers tend to be non-white". I want these things talked about. Trevor Phillips points out that many of their campaigns were based on shaming. Propaganda, laws, and the attitudes of politicians and activists in general were based on preventing people from talking about things because if they expressed an incorrect viewpoint, society would hold them as racist. This is basically what shaming does. When someone gets shamed for saying something stupid, they might stop saying it but it doesn't stop them from believing it. That requires actual life experience. If shaming is too harsh, people either become unwilling to discuss an issue, or worse, start to view proponents of a viewpoint as being hostile to them and seek out those that will reinforce their beliefs. Hell, if it's nasty enough, as we've seen on social media, even moderates get pushed away. This is what happened with shirtstorm and donglegate and all those other messes. What happened in the British example was that people felt that the government was unwilling to address problems that were racially charged, so they sought out groups that would. Many of these groups held much nastier, more radical beliefs than the ones that originally motivated the people to join them. I think we agree that issues need to be talked about to resolve, my point is there has to be an effort to create an atmosphere where people are willing to talk about a difficult issue. This usually is the responsibility of those that're trying to affect change.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:29
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Cyron posted:no, not at all, I mean I geuss you can see them as bad on their own, but it's not the same league as what GG have done. Agreed, so what's the point of bringing them up in this context?
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Jun 29, 2015 19:30
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Hadaka Apron posted:Anti-GG has plenty of warts, such as Brianna Wu faking harassment, Zoe being unapologetic for her time lurking in Helldump, the role of the Streisand effect in making the whole thing worse, the blockbot where less than 1% of the blocked accounts were involved in harassment, and so on. An unrepentant lurker, you say? I might suggest you yourself take a page from her book in this circumstance. Did she seduce Boniface away from his trolling fiefdom?
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Jun 29, 2015 19:31
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Dreylad posted:I'm guessing around the time he decided (or it was decided for him) that the site shouldn't be a haven for people who want to share child porn. I can't fault him for that, really, and more sites should apply that standard.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:31
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Unfunny Poster posted:I'm also not sure what Zoe lurking in Helldump has to do with her ex-boyfriend and people mad she hooked up with one or two journalists does to discredit a-GG. It shows a chronic lack of self-awareness that she enjoyed a forum where people got publicly shamed and hasn't apologized for it.  Note that the "I miss Helldump a little" tweet is a month after the Zoepost. She could say that she's now learned that shaming people over the internet is wrong, but she hasn't. Likewise, attempting to get discussions about her removed from the Internet was a gigantic tactical error on her part- that's what I'm talking about when I referred to the Streisand Effect. Silencing people on the internet backfired horribly when Streisand tried it, it backfired horribly when Glenn Beck tried it, and it backfired horribly when Scientology tried it. All that Zoe's heavy-handed response accomplished was giving Eron more attention and get more people to talk about her. The best way to respond to Internet trolls is to give them as little attention as possible.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:31
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Dreylad posted:I'm guessing around the time he decided (or it was decided for him) that the site shouldn't be a haven for people who want to share child porn. That happened ages ago, the migration to 8chan happened because /v/ mods were banning discussion of the zoepost AFAIK
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Jun 29, 2015 19:32
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Hadaka Apron posted:Anti-GG has plenty of warts, such as Brianna Wu faking harassment, Zoe being unapologetic for her time lurking in Helldump, the role of the Streisand effect in making the whole thing worse, the blockbot where less than 1% of the blocked accounts were involved in harassment, and so on. You could just mention the fact that anti-Gamergate actually harasses people, doxxes them and sends death threats while Gamergate does not.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:33
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Brannock posted:I can't fault him for that, really, and more sites should apply that standard. I hope no one would fault him for that.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:33
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Hadaka Apron posted:It shows a chronic lack of self-awareness that she enjoyed a forum where people got publicly shamed and hasn't apologized for it. Oh my god you actually believe all of this.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:33
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Slanderer posted:People are twitter did, certainly, but I don't know of any journalists who called for the game to be banned. Can you cite any examples? I can't actually check right now (All game-related site are blocked on my work network, because apparently video games are indistinguishable from browser games) I think the articles on Polygon were of the "this is everything wrong with games" tone. Obdicut posted:making zero sense This is GamerGate.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:33
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Unfunny Poster posted:I think the articles on Polygon were of the "this is everything wrong with games" tone. So no actual journalists then.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:34
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Wasn't helldump limited to post history on the forum?
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Jun 29, 2015 19:36
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Hadaka Apron posted:It shows a chronic lack of self-awareness that she enjoyed a forum where people got publicly shamed and hasn't apologized for it. there is absolutely nothing unreasonable about trying to get your personal information deleted from a discussion where people actively hate you and threaten you, and she's not hypocritical for enjoying helldumping. you really dislike this person for reasons that are not clear
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Jun 29, 2015 19:36
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Jack Gladney posted:Wasn't helldump limited to post history on the forum? In theory, yes. Broniki posted:You could just mention the fact that anti-Gamergate actually harasses people, doxxes them and sends death threats while Gamergate does not. This is a completely believable theory.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:36
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Hadaka Apron posted:It shows a chronic lack of self-awareness that she enjoyed a forum where people got publicly shamed and hasn't apologized for it. Get some perspective.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:36
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Popular Thug Drink posted:there is absolutely nothing unreasonable about trying to get your personal information deleted from a discussion where people actively hate you and threaten you, and she's not hypocritical for enjoying helldumping. you really dislike this person for reasons that are not clear It's unreasonable because it doesn't work. She got thrown into a horrible situation and made it much, much worse.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:36
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Jack Gladney posted:Wasn't helldump limited to post history on the forum? I recall multiple helldumpings that dug into what the poster was up to offsite. It may have become a rule later on to not do that, but Helldump was literally 7 years ago so idk.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:37
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Quoting an old post, but...Dapper Dan posted:Pretty much, yeah. It is way harder and jobs might be at risk. Collusion! Having coffee! The scandal! And yeah, getting black-balled is always a huge risk, but typically that is only if you break embargo. I haven't heard of being blackballed for anything else, except maybe Jeff Gerstman from Game Spot. Not that long ago, it was way more common than you'd think. And at the time, that site was not only still functioning, but it included more than one print magazine and some of the most popular podcasts. It's a coincidence, but about the time that Ziff-Davis bought 1UP a second time to make sure they killed it after they escaped the first attempt, seemed to be about the same time people really started getting mad about things. It's the point where feature article style writing in these update-focused sites began to disappear, with half of the audience going to videos and half the audience going to blogs that are much more just a newspost of gaming stories with little feature-length writing. That long thoughtpiece stuff all moved to Gamasutra and Rock-Paper-Shotgun, and that's where all this "death of gaming" talk that made people anxious came from. That then trickled down to the newspost blogs, particularly Kotaku and Polygon, and started a backlash against them. So, about Kotaku and Polygon... I'll admit that though I don't flame anyone on Twitter about GG etc, I did eventually unsubscribe from both of those blogs in my RSS feed, as well as The Verge. Kotaku was easy, they may be writing embarrassing social justice articles now, but years ago they were doing embarrassing articles like "that time I had sex with a girl on Sonic The Hedgehog bed sheets" (a post they later claimed was a joke.) Polygon I unsubbed the same time as The Verge; both want to talk about greater socio-political angles and assume you are in the same place in the political spectrum as their writers. The funny thing is that I am totally the person they're looking for. I actually fit into that profile of people, basically all of those assumptions are right on! But there's one other problem: I don't.like.echo chambers. I'm gay, but I don't editorials about "gay voices in gaming" or gay indie games. I'm pretty certain a percentage of game developers are gay, just as they represent in the general population and most jobs. I believe in climate change, but when a tech news site starts writing about it without even bothering to pay lip service to doubters as if they never existed, I begin to feel like I'm reading something that's been put through a filter. When a tech news site has a gay marriage celebration post that excitedly talks about "Twitter mobs mobilizing at every sign of homophobia" and "social media shutting down a homophobic pizzeria" months after so many articles about how trolls need to be reigned in and filtered out, I sense that progressive Twitter mobs are good but conservative Twitter mobs are bad. I think that, in addition to the payola stuff, and the "only got 7/10 it must be a bad game" concept, these are the journalism elements people want to discuss but get have become eclipsed by this harassment of gaming's hipster women who feel oppressed by society. Really the "journalism" element is that so many places have closed while the Gawker and Vox blogs carry on with the same "Plugged-In Progressive Millennials talking to other Plugged-In Progressive Millennials" editorial tone they always did. For a while I was only subscribed to Joystiq, because it stuck to regurgitating industry news and rumor format that I wanted without any agendas for anyone. Then AOL shut it down, and I've largely moved to "pro-gamergate" sites. I don't agree with many of the op-eds that have popped up on TechRaptor, but at least the positions of those editorials aren't apparent in the agenda of the news stories. I don't care when FemFreq posts a new video. While it is newsworthy that Fire Emblem's next release has same sex relationships, and how that contrasts to Nintendo's position regarding Tomadachi Life last year, I still don't care about feature-length articles about queer coders I've never heard of or the documentary about last year's GaymerJam. I don't want the gaming version of Vice. Nothing against these people in these indie communities, but I only have so much time in a day and if I cared about their communities I'd try to find them and join them. The only common thread through your entire audience is a shared interest in video games. Don't assume another thing about them.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:38
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Broniki posted:You could just mention the fact that anti-Gamergate actually harasses people, doxxes them and sends death threats while Gamergate does not. you have it exactly the opposite. the gamergaters are the far more likely party to harass, dox, and threaten people. i don't think your perceptions of reality are honest or accurate Jack Gladney posted:Wasn't helldump limited to post history on the forum? most of the time, and when a helldump got personal people would usually start pushing back and saying it had gone too far i don't remember anyone using death threats in a helldump though
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Jun 29, 2015 19:38
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Hadaka Apron posted:It's unreasonable because it doesn't work. She got thrown into a horrible situation and made it much, much worse. i'm not sure what species you're a member of, but most human beings do not like having their personal information shared on the internet and it is very reasonable to request that websites abide by their TOS to have this information pulled and discussion quelled among people who are sharing your home address and encouraging others to threaten you it is in no way zoe quinn's fault that a bunch of mysoginist nerds decided to continually harrass and threaten her for little/no reason at all. this is called 'victim blaming' and it is not only a nasty thing to think, it is a flawed and illogical idea
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Jun 29, 2015 19:39
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"This person was harassed and threatened with death. On the other hand, she didn't deal with it adroitly. Both sides are to blame."
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Jun 29, 2015 19:40
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Ddraig posted:So no actual journalists then. Colin Campbell is, if I recall, a journalist for Polygon but he wrote about Hatred in an opinion piece initially. Edit - Unless you mean a "non-games journalist" Craptacular! posted:Nintendo's position regarding Tomadachi Life last year, Wasn't that a result of a bug that caused other issues that affected the rest of the game and not Nintendo going "hahaha gently caress the gays!!" Mekchu fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Jun 29, 2015 |
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Jun 29, 2015 19:41
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Jack Gladney posted:Wasn't helldump limited to post history on the forum? Depended on what was going on. The pedocaust poo poo is the only real time i can remmeber people going all in on tracking people down
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Jun 29, 2015 19:45
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Popular Thug Drink posted:you have it exactly the opposite. the gamergaters are the far more likely party to harass, dox, and threaten people. i don't think your perceptions of reality are honest or accurate Boniface was hounded to the ends of the earth. That might have been people offsite though.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:49
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hadaka apron, you're also strongly implying that by resisting her h arassment, she made her harassment worse when curious onlookers were attracted to the commotion and also decided to pile on. this is how the streisand effect works, right? so then, are you saying that people would just naturally decide to harass zoe quinn because she's obviously a bad person who deserves popular harassment, like someone outed for abusing animals?
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Jun 29, 2015 19:49
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Broniki posted:You could just mention the fact that anti-Gamergate actually harasses people, doxxes them and sends death threats while Gamergate does not. Nah.... neither side is smelling like roses here. People have been threatened/received death threats before for being Pro-GG. A college professors was threatened to stop posting about being pro-GG or get ""something sharp in that close up oval office and twist": https://twitter.com/ggfeminist/status/514238397653590016 The standard "I know where you live" threat: https://twitter.com/milky_candy/status/513373137639964672 ErikForeman being told he is going to get his dick cut off: https://archive.is/E7GZL Mike Cernovich had every single detail of his life put online with instructions on how to file a report to the police/SWAT him. And that a restaurant that was hosting a GG meetup in Washington, DC had a pretty serious bomb threat against it. None of this justify GG doing something similar but lets be realistic about the kind of threats/harassment true believers of each side are doing to each other. BexGu fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Jun 29, 2015 |
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Jun 29, 2015 19:50
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Literally The Worst posted:Depended on what was going on. The pedocaust poo poo is the only real time i can remmeber people going all in on tracking people down I don't have huge knowledge of helldumped weirdos, but IIRC people did go offsite for Lego_Robot near the end of that thread. It was justified in the end tho, 'cause it turned out he was actively trying to get a minor across state lines or whatever to gently caress them or somesuch (also I think he was one of those involved in the original " ______phile is different from pedophile!" brigade, some weasel word before ephebophile)
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Jun 29, 2015 19:51
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honestly the tropes videos are incredibly tame even if they drop a few factual balls now and then, and that goes double when you consider a twerp like Macintosh is writing a fair bit of it
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Jun 29, 2015 19:51
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Literally The Worst posted:Depended on what was going on. The pedocaust poo poo is the only real time i can remmeber people going all in on tracking people down Only because there wasn't any real reason to dig deeper since it would have required a lot of effort for little gain. Facebook was still College only when Helldump was around, the whole social media phenom hadn't occured yet. I can guarantee you that if Helldump were open today theyd be combing through Kuuenbu and Blackbelt Bobmans tweeters and myplaces.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:51
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Unfunny Poster posted:Wasn't that a result of a bug that caused other issues that affected the rest of the game and not Nintendo going "hahaha gently caress the gays!!" Their original statement was something like "we didn't want to take a position on this issue," which of course basically read as a conscious caving to conservative thinking (though probably in Japan, as NOJ really doesn't think of the US at aside from a few franchises.)
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Jun 29, 2015 19:51
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BexGu posted:Mike Cernovich has a every single detail of his life put online with instructions on how to file a report to the police/SWAT him. I thought people posted his publicly-listed business address (which happened to be his home) and suggested to report him to the California Bar for hiring PIs to stalk people / threatening to doxx people by suing them and releasing the court records.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:53
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Meme Emulator posted:Only because there wasn't any real reason to dig deeper since it would have required a lot of effort for little gain. Facebook was still College only when Helldump was around, the whole social media phenom hadn't occured yet. I can guarantee you that if Helldump were open today theyd be combing through Kuuenbu and Blackbelt Bobmans tweeters and myplaces. I remember at least two separate occurrences where Helldumpers found and went through someone's deviantart or accounts on other forums.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:53
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Meme Emulator posted:Only because there wasn't any real reason to dig deeper since it would have required a lot of effort for little gain. Facebook was still College only when Helldump was around, the whole social media phenom hadn't occured yet. I can guarantee you that if Helldump were open today theyd be combing through Kuuenbu and Blackbelt Bobmans tweeters and myplaces. this is true, it's much easier to discover someone's actual identity when you can comb through and cross reference a decade's worth of social media rather than the relatively small footprint people had in the mid 2000's. back then you all but had to admit personal details yourself whereas now it's not too difficult to extrapolate all of this information with sufficient time and dedication
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Jun 29, 2015 19:54
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Meme Emulator posted:Only because there wasn't any real reason to dig deeper since it would have required a lot of effort for little gain. Facebook was still College only when Helldump was around, the whole social media phenom hadn't occured yet. I can guarantee you that if Helldump were open today theyd be combing through Kuuenbu and Blackbelt Bobmans tweeters and myplaces. Was Kuuenbu "NO YOU SHUT THE gently caress UP DAD" or was he the guy who didn't understand exercise or dating because it couldn't compare toa JRPG and it turned out he went to school with Petey
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Jun 29, 2015 19:56
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Adventure Pigeon posted:Trevor Phillips points out that many of their campaigns were based on shaming. Propaganda, laws, and the attitudes of politicians and activists in general were based on preventing people from talking about things because if they expressed an incorrect viewpoint, society would hold them as racist. This is basically what shaming does. It's not, though. What I'm talking about has nothing to do with preventing people from talking about things, and Trevor Phlllips point is that people were expressing correct viewpoints, not incorrect viewpoints. Jews really do have a higher average wealth than non-Jews. Irish are really more likely to be in the building trade. Etc. quote:When someone gets shamed for saying something stupid, they might stop saying it but it doesn't stop them from believing it. That requires actual life experience. If shaming is too harsh, people either become unwilling to discuss an issue, or worse, start to view proponents of a viewpoint as being hostile to them and seek out those that will reinforce their beliefs. Hell, if it's nasty enough, as we've seen on social media, even moderates get pushed away. This is what happened with shirtstorm and donglegate and all those other messes. Again, you're missing most of what I'm saying. I'm saying, first of all, that they way that people come to believe bigoted stupid stuff is because it's in the environment around them and is unchallenged. I'm saying that it should be challenged, so that it doesn't pervade the environment. You also cited that KKK-talking guy telling a guy his point of view was stupid, and shaming him for it. I don't think that you've at all in any way show n that moderates are pushed away, either. You seem to just be assuming that. quote:What happened in the British example was that people felt that the government was unwilling to address problems that were racially charged, so they sought out groups that would. Many of these groups held much nastier, more radical beliefs than the ones that originally motivated the people to join them. Again, what the British government did has nothing at all to do with what I'm talking about. Trevor Phillips was talking about issues of stereotypes not being talked about, discussion being shut down. I want more discussion, not less. quote:I think we agree that issues need to be talked about to resolve, my point is there has to be an effort to create an atmosphere where people are willing to talk about a difficult issue. This usually is the responsibility of those that're trying to affect change. I don't think that these things oppose. You can shame someone for calling a gay kid a human being, and you can create an atmosphere where people who think that gay people are naturally effeminate or something can be educated. And, as the KKK-talking guy showed, you can shame someone to their face and have it be an effective teaching tool. Do you think that the way that civil rights for black people were advanced were by black people engaging in polite dialog with racists? Unfunny Poster posted:
No, it's really just you I don't understand. Whatever you're attempting here, it's not working.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:56
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Literally The Worst posted:Was Kuuenbu "NO YOU SHUT THE gently caress UP DAD" or was he the guy who didn't understand exercise or dating because it couldn't compare toa JRPG and it turned out he went to school with Petey Hes No You Shut The gently caress Up, Dad
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Jun 29, 2015 19:56
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Also exercise has to be one of the easiest things to compare to an RPG. Im sort of shocked there isnt some big nerdy social site where everyone conencts thier iphones to a pedometer and it levels up a character or something
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Jun 29, 2015 19:57
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Meme Emulator posted:Hes No You Shut The gently caress Up, Dad Thought so, but I tend to get him and Kimani mixed up
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Jun 29, 2015 19:57
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Meme Emulator posted:Only because there wasn't any real reason to dig deeper since it would have required a lot of effort for little gain. Facebook was still College only when Helldump was around, the whole social media phenom hadn't occured yet. I can guarantee you that if Helldump were open today theyd be combing through Kuuenbu and Blackbelt Bobmans tweeters and myplaces. Spokeo would definitely get a huge funding boost. Slanderer posted:I thought people posted his publicly-listed business address (which happened to be his home) and suggested to report him to the California Bar for hiring PIs to stalk people / threatening to doxx people by suing them and releasing the court records. I don't know what difference it makes, but they also included pictures of his house from Google streetview. That was supposedly what made it bad.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:57
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Meme Emulator posted:Also exercise has to be one of the easiest things to compare to an RPG. Im sort of shocked there isnt some big nerdy social site where everyone conencts thier iphones to a pedometer and it levels up a character or something Early 2000s, man, flipphones were hot new technology.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:58
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